Transformers & Track

[Anonymous]

Hello,

I am new to G scale and am at the construction planning phase. Can anyone suggest a moderately priced (< $200) power supply/controller to power a double motor engine on 100 feet of track? I'd prefer power and controller all in one, but price would dictate. I doubt my LGB starter set power would cut it. I was considering MRC's 220-watt despite the reviews (and MRC) illustrating the fact the handle falls off! I know LGB's "Jumbo" is over $500! Amazed that G scale is somewhat a mystery with regards to the area hobby shops. Also wondering if anyone could suggest a reputable site that sells brass track. I don't want to, and am not required to get into "bending" and would prefer purchasing the longest straight sections of sectional track available. So far I have collected some Aristo and LGB and have no problem (albiet the tie color doesn't match) of blending the two. Unlike "O gauge", I am not reading any minimum radius requirements for the rolling stock and the additional engine I have purchased so far. Should climate be a concern, I live in Western PA, where it can get below zero during winter and push 100 during summer. I plan to operate year round. The layout design is a variation of a "dog bone" and in the future I may to add one turnout to route the livery to my garage for storage (way in the future!) which would add an additional 20'. Sorry if my questions are redundant, but with dial-up, it could take hours going through the threads!

Rich.

[ttrigg]

PRRRich

Here is the "e-store" that I use, when I post an order on a Monday it usually arrives on Thursday. One time when I placed a second order in less than two days (I did not order enough track on Monday so I ordered more on Tuesday). They e-mailed me asking if the second order was an error. I've had nothing but exceptionally good service from them.

http://www.internettrains.com/

[markperr]

Rich

LGB makes a power supply that is a step down from the Jumbo and is only about a hundred bucks. Bridgewerks makes all in one throttle type power supplies that are in the same price range. Aristocraft makes a power supply and separate hand held remote controller that costs less than two hundred bucks and it's 10 amps, more than sufficient to run several large locos.

As for track, Aristo and USA both make a five foot sectional track and I'm pretty sure LGB does as well but I don't buy LGB because the track is essentially the same as Aristo and twice the price. There are many good places to buy these items via mail order and you can find most of them in any copy of Garden Railways. The bigger mail order houses usually have multiple page ads. It's a great way to compare prices.

I live in Michigan and our climate is fairly close to yours. My layout is capable of running until the snow gets too deep and then I just turn my attentions to home maintenance until the next season. There are others in the snow belt who run nearly all year by using battery powered locos that push plows over the rails. If you haven't seen this before, it's quite a sight to behold.

Good luck with your search and welcome to the wonderful, wacky world of Largescale trains.

Mark

[whiterab]

I have a several cheap transformers stored in boxes somewhere. None made me happy. After messing with the cheap ones I bought a Bridgewerks and love it. I'm sure there are others out there that are just as good but I've never had a reason to look at anything else after getting the Bridgewerks.

I use Aristo Track and other than cursing the little screws I've been happy with it. While the screws can be a pain, I do like the better connection they afford. Aristo has a far greater selection of curve sizes for those of us that don't like to bend our own track.

I would recommend investing in some rail clamps such as the ones that Hillman and Split Jaw manufacture. Use them in areas where track will need maintenance or added stiffness such as around turnouts. Turnouts will require maintenance over time and pulling one with standard rail joiners can be be a real pain. With rail clamps, you can loosen the clamps, let them drop and then pull the turnout.

With standard joiners, one has the choice of either cutting them to remove or pulling up large sections of track to get enough slack to pull the slide off joiners off. Never pretty.

[Greg Elmassian]

I bought the mrc 10 amp unit when my starter transformer had a conniption fit trying to run my lgb track cleaning loco. Lots of power, nice big control lever.

Regards, Greg

[Anonymous]

Thank You for taking the time to respond! I appreciate and respect the opinions of the experienced! I am excited that my first issue of Garden Railways has arrived. Maybe you recall your first experiences with GRR and like myself couldn't get enough on the subject fast enough! This forum is a great resource evidenced by the hours I've spent sitting and waiting (very slow machine) to eagerly peruse the topics. Interesting that some folks that had asked my same questions back in 03' are now giving some great advice! Unfortunately for the hobby shops, I am observing there is no way for them to price compete with the net. On the other hand, being on a fixed budget dictates what is necessary. Not particularly having an interest in gardening, my motivation in this gauge is size and the space of the outdoors. If I were a gardener the first thing I would plant is a money tree! I would be happy if I can have the trackwork down before the ground freezes while also taking advantage of the cooler, beautiful fall season here in Western PA. I am seriously considering purchasing 3' sections of Aristo USA brass due to price, availability, and selection. I am partial to MRC power due to my positive experiences with their products in my O-gauge operations. I will look into the clamps that were suggested, not sure if any manufacturer is better than the other. Pricing seems to change radically from site to site, sometimes even more so with special incentitives. With two 35' side by side straight runs, I will french drain with PVC, gravel, then ballast with "Chicken Grit" if I can find the stuff. I thought about running 12-3 underground copper house wiring as a bus, running leads to the track at 10' intervals. Please advise if any of this logic seems "Voodoo"!

Thanks again my friends,
Rich

[Anonymous]

Just thought I'd drop a reply to update. My back is killing me and for a few days I thought my wife was going to leave me. My neighbors think dementia has set in, but I've gotten a lot accomplished! I went with Aristo, primarily the 5' sections. I purchased the 50 count box of Split Jaw clamps and graphite grease. I did go with the Bridgewerks 10SR transformer and think it is well worth the money due to the quality components and design. I french drained a 40' x 1' area below the straight section of the dogbone and backfilled with 2B gravel. I won't be able to use chicken grit or corse sandy material because I was told this will impede drainage. The area gets pretty swamped during heavy rain and spring thaws. I am going to try all purpose gravel, which seems to be smaller than 1B. I think it will do the job as far as leveling and securing the track in place. The key is the split jaw clamps. They really made a difference in straightening up the track and making the whole pike way more rigid than my trial layout with the stock joints. I also like the fact that I can loosen either side of the clamp and vertically lift the track straight up and out if need be. Otherwise I'd disturb the ballast with the side to side sliding movement required with the stock joint connectors. I was advised by several electrical contractors that it is not necessary to use conduit with underground rated wiring, and being I am using 10 gage stranded wiring of this nature I buried it along side PVC. The new landscaping looks great and I haven't really started with any plants or other enhancements, which is probably why my wife decided to stay! As it stands I've got another 12 hours to invest before I actually get to run for the first time. I was thinking of using an outdoor outlet box to rig a set of female chasis mount banana sockets (if anyone makes them) so the transformer can be easily connected/disconnected outside. I don't have any desire (at this point) for installing turnouts, especially if they require being removed for routine maintenance. I have plenty of switch action opportunities with my indoor O gauge railroading. Hope this project keeps going well!

Rich

[ttrigg]

Rich;

Sounds like you made some good choices.

Dafy-nition: Good Choice - what works and makes one happy.

Tom

[Anonymous]

Rich, sounds like your on a roll[:p] Just remember to gravel that has broken/sharp jagged edges over round pea gravel what ever size you chose. It will lock itself in place unlike the round gravel, it will move and unsettle all your hard work.

[Anonymous]

Even though the all purpose gravel is a mix of smooth and jagged stone, I am concerned it may "roll". It worked real good with making the track level over the 2B. I think there is now enough heigth to allow good drainage and will top off with crusher grinds or chicken grit. The Home Depots in my area do not sell "crusher grinds" per say, and are completely sold out of medium paver sand, which they claim is comparable. I can try Agway for chicken grit. One farm supply wanted $7 for 5# for what they are calling chicken grit. They said the ingredients were mainly charcol, shell, and sodium? After working 8 hours on the railway yesterday, I'm not sure if it will be in operation before the snow flies! This has been a lot more work than I imagined (but fun). I now have a lot more appreciation when I see what other folks have done! But honestly, if I see another split jaw clamp I think I'm gonna hurl! I think my fingers are permanently stained black from the electrogrease! I not sure if it was wise to put in a split jaw at every track joint? Even though the little buggers are relatively expensive, I like the way they keep the track straight and true, but am concerned about the expansion/contraction effect. I saw an add about a free moving expandable track section. Has anyone used this product and let me know if they are effective?

Thank's for your comments,
Rich

[Anonymous]

Rich, if your concerned about the gravel moving you could always add a little portland cement to the gravel, mix it together dry and then once roadbed and track are where you want them sprinkle water on from a watering can or from a hose nozzle, saturate but not blasting it.

Also somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but from my understanding Aristo track can be just screwed together instead of the expence of the split jaw rail clamps. You could always save them for turnouts/switches so they can easily be removed for maintence. You could also use a slip on track joiner every 8 feet or so so that the track can easily move for expansion and contraction.

[Anonymous]

The cement idea is intriging! St. Aubin's is of the opinion that as long as the entire track system is not anchored down (free floating), I shouldn't end up with a brass pretzel (I had called to inquire about the expandable track section). I don't mind re-ballasting as often as necessary, I just don't want to end up with damaged track. The Aristo set screws don't set as tight and firm as the split jaws, but would work fine in a temporary track powered situation, it would seem. The tiny set screws and thin brass joiners would probably buckle under stress. Not sure!

Thanks Matt,
Rich

[piercedan]

For gravel, I mixed 3/8 gravel 3 parts with 1 part stone dust.

A fellow RR modeler has just stone dust and some washouts and found that putting outdoor wood glue onthe ballast fixed his problems where the washouts were occuring. Gravel turns mushy, but stays put for him.

[Anonymous]

PRRRich
I am in planning stages and interested in your idea of running a "house wire" bus, attaching to rails at 10' intervals for power assurance. Did this work for you? I've considered the same notion, but I'm no electrician. Any input welcomed.

[CandCRR]

I am experimenting with the portland cement and dry balast. I mix the cement with stone dust and 3/8 crushed stone. Then I let Mother Nature do the watering. Where I have done it and later wanted to make changes it has been very easy to breakup and reuse. Because of this I think I should not have any problems with frost, snow, and ice. The track still seems to float. It has also fixed my wash out problem on one part of the layout. I will let you know in the spring how it held up to New England winter with snow and ice (by the way I loved the video with the snow plow and snow blower on the Garden Railways web site).

Jaime

[Anonymous]

Grandpa51,
I am a rookie at Garden Railways, but would be happy to pass on what I've gathered from St. Aubin's, electrical contractors, and other GR enthusiasts. My original bus idea would work, but Bridgewerks transformers recommend using underground stranded 10 gauge for track distances over 99' (as I recall or was told). As you read this thread you can see where my plans kept changing. Again, I am no authority, but there are so many approaches people have had success with. I am trying to decipher which ideas will give me a durable, dependable, and economical outcome for my climate zone. I was told that the split jaws with graphite grease would eliminate the need for the bus/feeder approach. Just supply a feeder at both mid points per loop. Some folks have claimed success with only one power feed with over 100' of track using clamps and graphite grease! I am near completion, and I can only hope that the two feeds mid way will supply consistent track power. My initial gut plan was total overkill, complete with unnecessary PVC wiring conduit. Hope this helps, and hope the experienced guys/gals can shed further light. Good Luck, I'll keep you posted how she turns out!

Rich

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the ballast ideas- you have my attention!

Rich

[Anonymous]

I have over 300' of track that has been in the garden for over a year.It has 1,that is 'one' track feed.
The biggest conductor you will find is the rail itself.
Please,please just get some track down and experiment !!!

[Anonymous]

Stranded wire carries more load. If you want twelve gauge wire go to an electrical supply house we have Loeb electric and Graybar electric supply houses here in Ohio. You also might want to check the direct burial wire that is meant for low voltage garden lights, I think I remember somebody saying it was twelve gauge and stranded wire.

[whiterab]

If you can get stone dust, it's better than dry cement. I have trouble getting dust so I have used the dry cement mixed with chicken grit ballast. One really big word of warning. Use it sparingly. Somehow I got too much in the ballast for one section of track. Not only did it harden up to the point where the track can't breath, if I ever have to change that section it is probably going to take a hammer to get it up.

Track has to breath due to temperature expansion/contraction. If you haven't correctly allowed for expansion, a little hot sun and something is going to give. The trick is to stabilize the ballast, not harden it.

The right amount of cement will give you a ballast that you can easily crumble with your finger tips. If your track is shaking off the ballast, check the gap on your rails on a really hot day. If you don't have any gap, the rails will twist and pu***he ballast off the roadbed.

[Anonymous]

I seem to be in the same boat (or, gondola) as PRRRich at this point. Been reading various opinions on track continuity. Brass, stainless steel, grease, clamps, soldered jumpers, slip joint connectors, one power connection or many... what to do? I've even considered chuckin' it all and gettin' a battery conversion. I, too, tend to over-think, over-plan, over-study, and over-build, so maybe I'll just toss the dice. My layout will be faily lengthy, but simple (few switches and sidings), mostly for the entertainment of my new grandson who will be 1 year-old next summer when construction begins.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Grandpa51

I seem to be in the same boat (or, gondola) as PRRRich at this point. Been reading various opinions on track continuity. Brass, stainless steel, grease, clamps, soldered jumpers, slip joint connectors, one power connection or many... what to do? I've even considered chuckin' it all and gettin' a battery conversion. I, too, tend to over-think, over-plan, over-study, and over-build, so maybe I'll just toss the dice. My layout will be faily lengthy, but simple (few switches and sidings), mostly for the entertainment of my new grandson who will be 1 year-old next summer when construction begins.

That's why I'm skipping track power from the get go. I also weigh options heavly.

[Greg Elmassian]

To the starter of this thread:

One question you asked but I think no one answered, if you are using clamps at every joint, power every 10 feet is overkill. Try every 20 to 30 feet.

In response to another question, using clamps at every joint is probably overkill in terms of what you need for conductivity, but if you can afford it, you will be happy forever (or at least while running trains!).

I use clamps at every switch, feeds about every 20 feet, and insulated joiners every so often so weak (from a conductive point of view) rail joiners show up.

If you feed a piece of track from 2 directions, if one direction is poor, then it's harder to spot, usually you don't notice it until feed from BOTH ends of a section of track is bad.

By putting electricity into blocks (while having enough feeds), weak areas are easy to debug.

Regards, Greg

[Anonymous]

Thanks Greg. This has turned into a real project but I think there is a light at the end of the tunnel! It is amazing how much dirt removal is involved with leveling an eight percent grade! I am currently waiting for the last eight split jaws to arrive and I can "Get-R-Done"! I will have to challenge myself to precisely hack a couple of lengths to join east and west. The entire pike is a little under 100', which apparently is relatively small. I knew I'd never have been able to tackle anything much bigger. I did go the expensive route with clamps at every joint not only for conduction but also for strength. In GR terms, I guess I aspire to be a "sparker" and a "puffer"! The real challenge has been making the track as unobtrusive to the landscaping as possible as my wife hates model railroading! I used a lot of river rock, shale, lava stones and can't wait for the brass to dull! Sometimes I feel guilty as I am only doing this for myself. It's a sickness, I just love trains!

Rich

[John Busby]

Hi PRRRich
What is important with track feeds is not so much the number of track feed but that they are evenly spaced.
Multi feed is put in so if feed fails one way it works the other it also helps
quite a bit with your worsed enemy Volt drop.
I note one respondant advocates terminal blocks don't out doors theses are
a failure waiting to happen use good soldered joints covered with heat shrink.
If for any reason it is nesasary to use terminal blocks strip your wire long enough to go under both screws and make both the screws hold every wire in the block put the whole lot in a sealed weatherproof box at a point where it can be convieniently got at mark all wires by writen down colour code
or an electrical lable bead I repeat terminal blocks out side are trouble waiting to happen.
Do not take any short cuts on your wiring if you do you will compromise reliabilaty and worse enjoyment of the line.
Make sure you graphite grease all track joints on assembly this does two things helps conductivety on the track joints and also makes it easy to take apart should that be needed for track mods or repairs
An LGB cat no 50110 ( US equivelent No will need to be found) transformer and controler of your choice should be adequate for you train requirements and layout size.
But remember keep the domestic supply where it belongs in the house
and well away from low volt RR wiring we don't want any nasty suprises
I run all my train wiring through pipes and pits made from plumbing pipe buried beside the line it makes for easy installation of wire modifications and protects it from gardening mishap.
don't put the wiring under the track like I have seen sugested in the model press it will be a pain if there is a problem think about it!!
For ballast I float my track in crusher dust and only have one spot where a pinch of cement might be needed at some point.
My temp range is 40+ degC too aprox-2C have not had problems I just use greased joints and LGB track clips or Aristocraft screws as apropreate
for that section of line have had no problems my line has been down three years now.
When the track blackens it will look less obtrusive
My SWMBO is not that keen on trains but does help where she can on the garden side of things and likes to watch the changes hapen it has grown on her as well so remember it is suposed to be shared and listen just in case your SWMBO has some thing constructive to say or a specific request that is non negotiable.
That will keep houshold harmony
and another good trick if you ever get steamed up is don't forget to order
name plates with SWMBO's name or name of choice with that live steam Loco
Have fun
regards John

[Anonymous]

Good to hear from you John. Also good advice on encouraging my wife to get in on the fun, besides, she is much better with the gardening piece! The great news is I was able to complete my track layout and run my LGB PRR passenger train starter set! It was a beautiful autumn day, sun and in the high 60's. I am very impressed with outdoor railroading, it is truely something I hope all model train lovers get a chance to experience. As with my O gauge three rail indoor layout, the true test of a layout and/or engine in my opinion is the "crawl test". That LGB set was able to crawl the entire loop with no evidence of voltage drop. The hard work was well worth it. I sat and just watched that train all afternoon. There is one area that my LGB 40' box cars frequently derail negotiating a 90 degree R1 curve. I am not using R1 curves in this section by choice but by necessity. When running my full scale stock, the GP30 (USA Trains) seems to pull the box car immediately following off the track by the coupler. The couplers are the stock hook and loop type. I was surprized because these couplers seem they would be more forgiving than knuckles. Is there a optimal coupler to use when you are forced to use sections of R1 track in your layout? What is an "idler car"? I thought I had read somewhere about putting one behind an engine to help negotiate tight curves. Anyway, just wanted to let everyone know I'm up and running and thanks for all your insights! You are a great group!

PS- I still have lots of questions!!!!!

Rich

[Anonymous]

Long trains on R1 curves do tend to derail. My fix was to progressively wieght the cars. Heavy right behind the loco to light as you go back. Also, make sure your heavier cars are closest to the loco, i.e. passenger coaches and boxcars right behind the loco. Gond's and flat at the back end.
An idler car is usually a flat car or gondola. It is used where you don't want the loco to be on that section of track because of weight. Like loading cars on a rail barge. It is put between the loco and the car or cars that you want to spot. The loco is so heavy that it would list the barge too much if it rolled onto the barge or crush, or damage, the ramp.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Capt Turk. Sorry for not responding sooner, but been very busy. I've been doing well with my electric trains, then again I only have been running six car consists. I think my original problem might have had more to do with the terrain. I've got so much money in track, transformer, rail clamps, etc, I can't afford cars! Is it safe to assume the loop and hook European style couplers are more forgiving negotiating R1 loops as opposed to knuckle couplers?

[kstrong]

Yes, that's a safe assumption. They've got a tremendous amount of lateral play. While I'm not a big fan of truck-mounted couplers, they are far more adept at handling tight curves.

Later,

K