Stainz / Bachmann LYN bash. Opps- it's not a porter.

[bobgrosh]

I have an old LGB Stainz and a powered sound tender (two axle). The two together seem to run forever. nothing stops them. They are of course European and I think they are ugly as sin.

I have an new Bachman side tank 2-4-2 tender-less porter ( not the current offering, much older.) It hobbles, squeaks, lurches, groans and limps down the track. at best. I think it is one of the neatest looking locos I own and the worst running.

I'm entertaining the idea of bashing them to produce one neat looking American logging loco with tender that will pull stumps.

I've never done any bashing before but I have a screwdriver, Dremel motor tool and some x-acto knives.

Would it be possible to install the motor, drivers and side gear stuff from the Stainz into the Bachmann? What would I have to do to the Bachmann cab and the LGB tender to make it look right?

B0B

[vsmith]

Bob I'm pretty sure it can be done, the LGB chassis is similar in size and could probably fit inside the Bmann shell, but I never had a 2-4-2 Lynn so I dont know how it breaks down. If my Bmann sidetank Porter is anything to go by then the Bmann boiler is a little wider than the LGB. I would think that keeping the LGB chassis as the main platform and us it for the lights and stuff and use only the Bmann Lyn as a shell it should work. Cant offer much more than that as I've never dismantled a Lyn before...

[bobgrosh]

Thanks Vic.
With that encouragement, I'm going to look into this a little more.
Here are some Pic's
Here is the Stainz and tender.

The tender has a motor, DCC decoder, speaker and sound card.
The Loco has a motor and DCC decoder.
Both have pickups on all four wheels and track sliders, making this combination nearly as good a puller as an LGB Mikado.

This is the Bachmann Porter.

The side tanks have large weights in them. The thing runs, but just barely.



It looks close.

If I put the motor block from the Stainz under the Bachmann porter, and add the tender behind it, the porter will have the same number of pickup points, sliders and driven wheels as the LGB Mikado.

Another problem!


What would I have to do to the Bachmann cab and the LGB tender to make it look right?
The coal bunker would have to go. So would the side tanks. That would result in loosing a lot of weight and I'd have to build some running boards and other details for the side of the porter.
I really want to include the tender in this hookup. It provides 1/2 the pulling power.

B0B

[Anonymous]

Bob, have you thought of replacing the motor in the porter with a newer improved unit? and scratch building apropriate looking tender and adding power trucks to it? TOC repairs these things and may know if a replacment motor is availible.

Just thinking[D)]

[bobgrosh]

Matt
Not really. I already have both these locos. I know the Stainz and powered tender are indestructible. I have several other Bachmann's. I'm not happy with the running characteristics of any of the Bachmann stuff. Even a newer drive mechanism would probably be no better than my Annie, so why take a chance? I hate running the Stainz because of the European look. I seldom run my Bachmanns. This bash will at least give me a good running loco that looks right at home on a southern logging railroad.
B0B

[Anonymous]

Bob,
Look at removing the boiler/cab etc from the Bachmann chassis and similar for the stainz. I know the side rods/valve gear are slightly different on the stainz but they do look ok. Take the coal bunker and cab back off the Bachmann and extend the cab floor out with some styrene to make up the gap, have the loco on a curve when you do this! You should be able to marry up the Bachmann body to the LGB chassis without too much worry - I put a Lionel 0-6-0 boiler onto an LGB mallet front chassis and turned the lot into a Mason Bogie without any hassle, the whole lot was held to the chassis by a 2" wood screw through the rear dome into the pivot of the chassis. Do you need to loose the side tanks? I think it looks neat in the picture with it's tanks and tender and would look good on any logging railroad.
Cheers,
Kim
[tup]

[vsmith]

One small thing, if you decide to run the Lyn with the LGB tender, I would modify both to Oil burners by covering the coal bunkers, otherwise if this was real, how would coal get from the tender to the engine witht the Lyns fuel bunker in the way. This way it will look like the Lyn is pulling an auxiliarly tender, which was very common on logging and mining trains, water cars which were often converted tenders were very common.

The Lyn boiler and sidetanks look like they are one piece, if so it should make the conversion a bit easier room wise.

[bobgrosh]

QUOTE: Originally posted by vsmith

... I would modify both to Oil burners by covering the coal bunkers, ...

That seems like a much better option than trying to remove the bunker and open up the rear of the cab.
Untill you sugested converting to oil, here is what I was thinking.


I could shorten the boxcar and install the render guts in it. Downside, maybe more work than converting to oil, and I'd be saddled with always dragging around a boxcar (tool car) that may not look right in the train I might want to pull. Upside: I can use the boxcar with other locos for more power.
I think I like your idea better. What exactly would I need to do to the tender to install an oil bunker? Also, will I need to install a straight stack on the loco?

[vsmith]

Basically cover the coal and install a lid on both. When locos were converted to oil what most often happened was that a tank was built that conformed to the existing tenders fuel bunker shape. Thats was then lowered into the the bunker and bolted down. The tank had a filler lid similar to the lid of the water tank on the tender, though a bit smaller. On the Lyn it would more likely have been a rebuilt (To be oil-tight) bunker with the similar cover and lid like the tender. Bachmann's Heisler and I beleve the new Shay come in oil burning configurations and do a good job of showing what the installation looked like.

As for the stack, thats up to you, normally any oil or coal burner would have a straight stack, but many locos were rebuilt with small diamond stacks simoly for appearences sake.

[bobgrosh]

OK! I started.
My first problem was how to fit the cylinders. I didn't like the looks of the Stainz cylinders. So, my first task was to see if I could adapt the Stainz mechanism to the Porter cylinders.

I removed the silver colored cap from the rear of the Porter cylinder.
The LGB sliding mechanism was a perfect fit into the cylinder except for a small alignment tab. I removed the tab with a Dremel plastic cutoff wheel and pressed the LGB assembly into the rear of the porter cylinder. It was a tight fit and required no glue. That will make it easy to disassemble the loco later for painting and service.


Because the original Porter had an outside frame, the cylinders were to far apart. I cut them from the smoke box support and moved them inboard so the distance between their centers matched the cylinders on the Stainz. Small screws on the underside were added to hold them to the Porter's pilot assembly

Magnetic business cards were stacked to the correct height to support the loco superstructure while it sat on the original porter motor block.

Now they are used to hold the superstructure up while test fitting the alignment on the LGB motor block.


The biggest difference between the two motor blocks are the height, I will have to build up the LGB motor block (on the left) to the same height as the porter block (on the right).
The notch in the upper left corner of the Porter block is to clear the Bachmann smoke generator.

The LGB block does not clear the generator. I removed the smoke generator and will replace it with an LGB unit. I think the porter's unit was burned out anyway.

I decided to stop and rebuild the LGB motor block. I've had it for 7 years and it has seen 1,000's of hours of running. It was used when I got it. The brushes are shot and it's missing a tire. Luckily, the local LGB dealer keeps these in stock.


Now with the motor block cleaned up, wheels painted, spacers in place, and everything checked for clearance, I can wire up the decoder.

Since this is my first attempt to kit bash, I'm sure I'll have a lot more questions as I go.
Thanks for all the help so far.

B0B

[Anonymous]

Bob, Glad to see your making progress! I've made some but the digital camera left for the weekend with my wife.

[bobgrosh]

Thanks Matt, I'm looking forward to more pictures.

Just a side note here:
This is what I found inside a saddle tank. Lots of rust. I removed the weights so they can be cleaned up and painted to reduce future rust. The bottom and inboard sides of the tanks are part of the boiler casting. They do not contribute any room for electronics inside the boiler.



Converting to an oil burner just got easier. Two screws inside the cab release the fake coal load. That means a lot less grinding than I had thought.
This picture shows the coal load removed. Two railings are also removed, but I pan on puting them back on.


It looks like I could insert a piece of brass tube in one of the holes as a filler tube and then devise a cap. The other holes could be filled with body putty. Or, I could make a plastic plate to serve as the top of the drop in bunker/tank and add a filler tube to that.

Question: Which way should I go? The plate could be thick enough to make is seem like you are looking at a tank set into the existing coal bunker.

And... Should the filler tube be set to one side or centered?

And... Should I add a ladder or some sort of steps to reach the filler hatch?

And... Do they keep some sort of dip stick on this deck to check the fuel level?

So many questions.

B0B

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by bobgrosh

It looks like I could insert a piece of brass tube in one of the holes as a filler tube and then devise a cap. The other holes could be filled with body putty. Or, I could make a plastic plate to serve as the top of the drop in bunker/tank and add a filler tube to that.

Question: Which way should I go? The plate could be thick enough to make is seem like you are looking at a tank set into the existing coal bunker.

And... Should the filler tube be set to one side or centered?

And... Should I add a ladder or some sort of steps to reach the filler hatch?

And... Do they keep some sort of dip stick on this deck to check the fuel level?

So many questions.

B0B

I think I would add the plate and center the filler, although as they say there is a prototype for almost everything.

On the dipstick question, I have no clue. Vic would probably know.

[bobgrosh]

Thanks Matt. Now I've got to round up some plastic. This is starting to feel like scratch building. I was trying to avoid even a little of that.

Until Vic suggested converting to oil. I was leaning toward using the LBG tender to power a box car disguised as a tool or payroll car.

Looking at my second photo I realized how good the tender would look behind the porter.

So now I think I'll at least try to build an oil bunker. The side boards and dummy coal load come off the tender real easy. My guess is that the lid of the oil bunker should rest on top the tank a few scale inches above the existing coal bunker sides.



Would it be OK to simulate a welded on top? ( really don't want to have to make rivets.) I plan on making the top one or two scale inches bigger than the bunker so it has a slight overhang. I'll try to get some plastic tomorrow that is a scale 1/4" thick. Is that about right for the lid?

What about bracing? If the tank has internal bracing, maybe two cross members, would it show up as rivets or weld marks across the top of the tank? Did they ever use external braces? How did they set the tank in the bunker? Would there be some metal parts on the top where they attached some chains for lifting?
Sorry about all the questions, but you guys have done all this before. I can't think of a better place to find the answers.

While on hold waiting to get the plastic for the bunkers, I decided to draw up some decals.
This is a highly reduced image of the 8" by 8" sheet.

The two at the top are for the tender. Below them are the loco tank sides.

The original file is 8960 pixels wide.

---

Here is a montage of three cut outs from the original image so you can see the detail. It's not as clear and sharp as the actual print, due to web compression, but I gives you an idea of just what can be accomplished.

This is the artwork for the side of the tender, I'm just showing it here because it was the hardest to draw.


Later
B0B

[Anonymous]

Rivets or welds I haven't a clue[D)][%-)][X-)][?] Vic or Kevin or someone will know.

[vsmith]

Depends what period your modeling for how it was built. anything before 1950 would likely have been riveted together, after WW2 welded tanks were not uncommon.

if you can do the rivets do them, it wil give it a wider range of period. the tanks were internaly braced so if you show a band of rivets at the edges and maybe to intermediate bands on rivet top to bottom should look pretty good. Use your own eye to determine the best layout.

I dont ever recall seeing external bracing or llifting hooks, I have only seen clean exteriors on the tanks, rivets, handrails or holds, and the filler only, there might have been lifting hook but once these tanks here installed they were usually permanent.

[Anonymous]

See I told you Vic would know[:D]

[bobgrosh]

A small progress report!

I completely disassembled and cleaned the loco and tender. Due to differences in type of plastic and finish, I sprayed everything but the cab roof with a satin black to sort of unify everything. Then I sprayed the cab, tank and tender sides Moss Green. Here is a picture with the main components set in place.

At last I can see that the tender does indeed look good with this loco. Adding the colors unifies the two. The biggest drawback is the two axle truck under the tender, something I don't care for, but have to live with if I want the extra pulling power. After seeing this configuration, I definably need to build some fuel oil tanks. Now I've got to work out the mounting of the Kaydee coupler on the front of the tender since I may want to assign the loco to switching duties without the tender. I also need to see what needs to be done to Americanize the tender.
B0B

[Anonymous]

Looking good Bob. This has been quite an interesting project and I'm sure other folk will be interested making a funny looking German loco become a proper locomotive. As to the two axle truck on the tender I think it is Ok and reasonably prototypical. Here in New Zealand those tender locos that worked on the bu***rams commonly had fourwheel tenders.

[bobgrosh]

A basic box for the oil bunker,

Here is another view showing the filler tube under construction.


Questions: How does the oil get to the loco? Should there be some pipes or drains added somewhere? Did the fuel oil have to be heated to make it flow? Was there a pump?
The reason I ask is because the front of the tank looks so bare.

[vsmith]

Bob oil flow would be no different than a regular oil fired loco, with either a flexible hose or a jointed pipeline betweeen the tender and the engine located below the footplate on a regular engine. Yours would look mostly like an additional airhose, in roughly the same place. Additionally there could be a steam line to an oil warmer (and water warmer) located in the tender though these were often only used in cold climates. Model Railroader's Locomotive Encyclopedia has a commendious amount of information on this kind of stuff, worth the price and would explain it far better than my words. Unless your shooting for a museum qulaity model I'm not sure how to model such a line and still be able to seperate the two. Maybe you can modify the engine and tenders MU plug and wire connection (if any) to mimic the oil line connection? Otherwise maybe just a plastic hose that plugs into the two cars?

[vsmith]

One thing I can suggest to help "dress up" the tender would be to add ladder rungs at either end and two hand rails across the top of the oil tank. This was very common on oil burners and is usually the dead giveaway in photos as to whether an engine was a coal burner or a oil burner.

[bobgrosh]

I'm really glad I'm not building this loco from scratch. All these little pieces are a pain. Here is the filler tube ready to paint.

I made the loco's bunker cover, filler and vent the same way as the tender.
The original two rails on the loco had supports that interfered with the bunker so I replaced them with these metal ones.

The rear view of the tender that Loco Annie posted looked cool with the railings on the back. I liked it so much that I decided to add rails to the tender. Here they are being test fitted. This also helps to unify the look of the tender/loco combination. Thanks Annie for the great picture and inspiration.


One dilemma I have is what color to paint the tanks, Zinc red, Tuscan red? Black? What? I can't decide.
I guess I'll delay that while I figure out how to solder the hand rails and supports. A first for me.
One thing I have considered is some grab irons on top the tender bunker. I was going to just add a couple of the spare ones that came with a USAT box car. Now I wonder if I should add tall ones like the ones on some tank cars. They might protect the rather small parts on the filler cap in the event the tender rolls over. What about a wood walkway? Seems like the top of the tank would get slippery.
Later, B0B


GEEZ VIC - Now you are answering my questions seconds befor I post them[:D][:D][:D]

[Anonymous]

Bob, I did some soldering on my valve gear parts over the weekend, for me it seemed to work best using wood clothes pins for clamps because they didn't absorb the heat from the metal enabling it to be more concentrated. The higher the wattage of the soldering gun/iron the better, mines a 200 watt. Just make sure you use flux it will give you cleaner and stronger joints. Just flux your joints and clamp them in some way and hold the iron/ gun on it till it melts and keep holding the iron and occasionally touch the solder when it's hot enough it melt in easy. I used thin gauge electrical solder that contains lead, not sure but I think it has a lower melting point then the plumbing type that is lead free.

On the tank walk boards, I'm sure there's a prototype that did.[;)]

[vsmith]

Hey Bob

We never got to see a final product , please post some finish product pics, thanks Vic

[kstrong]

Sorry to be chiming in late on this... Nice looking project, by the way...

As for getting the oil to the burner, it's a venturi effect like an airbrush, only using steam pressure to atomize the oil instead of air. From www.festrail.co.uk/GDFiles/Guest%20Firing.pdf

"Fuel is fed by gravity from the fuel tank to the burner. If we open the oil valve we just get a dribble
of fuel out of the burner and it will not burn. The fuel needs to be atomised (turned into miniscule
droplets) before it will burn, and the atomiser does that job. Inside the burner, the fuel is mixed with
steam under pressure and squirted out through the small holes around the burner's edge, so turning
the fuel into the droplets we need. With this happening the burner will light and maintain
combustion.

Bearing in mind that the fuel is fed by gravity, the atomising steam acts a bit like a pump in that it
“pulls” the oil through from the fuel tank, as the fuel will flow to take the place of that squirted
through the burner."

So, you'd only need a supply hose running between the loco and the tender. Physics does the job of pulling the fuel oil through.

As for the tank, an early tank would likely have been rivetted, but a welded tank is also plausible. One of the EBT's large mikados came with a welded tender in 1918. (The subsequent one came with a rivetted one again. Go figure.)

Incedentally, the shop that's rebuilding Colorado & Southern 2-6-0 #9 for service on the Georgetown Loop RR is converting the loco from coal to oil, and building an oil tank for it. They're rivetting it so to make it look a bit more historical.

Later,

K

[bobgrosh]

K, Thanks for the info, that helps a lot.

Sorry about not posting finished pictures. I was posting in real time, as work progressed.

Well, the loco still looks just like the last pic I posted. Things have been a Little hectic here:

Engine in primary van died.
Transmission in backup van died.
Engine in backup van died.
Dad fell ill. Rented car to go to SC to help dad.
Went to New Orleans to take brother home.
Dad Died. My first grandson was born. (In the same day, 400 miles apart, I was present for both.)
Put 4,016 miles on rental car in one week.
Picked up primary van with new engine. Engine overheated. Got that fixed.
Two more trips to SC to clean dad's house, ready it for sale, and deal with probate court.
Several customers late on payments. Had to hustle to make up for $28,000 in late receivables and still complete two projects while putting on a two day conference.

Eventually, everything seems to be turning out OK, but no time for trains the last few weeks. I hope to get back to it next weekend. I promise to post updates.


B0B

PS Grandson is going fine. His name is Gabrial. I got him a Thomas tank engine yesterday.

[vsmith]

Sorry Bob,

No hurry on pics, I was just wondering how it was going, you had bigger fi***o fry the last couple months, get back to it when everything else is taken care of .

Take it easy, Vic

[Anonymous]

Bob, Sorry for your loss.

And congradulations grandpa!

We will still be here when you get around to finishin and posting pics.

[John Busby]

Hi bobgrosh
I am somewhat puzzled by the need for coal rails on an oil burner.
locoAnnie that funny German thing[:D] has its uses quite a lot of them ended up in my neck of the woods on mine and dam building tramways.
I got two of them they will be geting minimalist conversion to 16mm scale
they are closer to that than the manufacturers claim of 1:22.5
I am integued by the 4 wh tenders have you built one??
regards John