What schism exists between Large Scalers and other Model Railroaders...

[Anonymous]

When I made the transition from N scale to G Scale a little over a year ago I had apporached some HO and N scalers about problems I thought I might face. They gave me a look as if I was speaking GREEK or something. I got the impression that they didn't count Large Scale Trains as part of their same hobby.

This fact was reinforced when I noted that most Model Train publications of which I was exposed had little to do with it.

Now that I have been in a for a relative while and been exposed to the, dare I say, wisdom of this forum. I find this is not true to the great degree I once thought; byt local hobby stores I frequent still hold the same paradigm.

Why is that so?

[tangerine-jack]

Humans have an inherent need to socialize around common interests. This is true in society at large as much as it is in this hobby. The blockheads you talked to probably didn’t know the first thing about Garden RR, so instead of saying they were clueless, they gave you the impression that you were wrong, or your hobby interest were “Greek”.

Now there are fundamental differences between indoor HO scale and outdoor G scale, and if I had to go over them here, then you are probably too stupid walk and chew gum at the same time. These differences are enough that Garden RRing is, in all reality, a totally different hobby.

Think about how much of your N scale experience actually applies outside in the garden with all the insects, leaves and effects of Mother Nature. Apart from a general appreciation of trains, not much really, is there? I don’t think too many Garden RR have newspaper and plaster scenery, or hundreds of tiny artificial trees. Imagine the horror of finding a bird on your N scale pike, or worse yet, putting your layout where it can be rained on! Outdoors that doesn’t matter, in fact it is expected.

You’ve touched on an area of the human psyche that has been much studied over the years. Why do we group together? Why do we shun other groups? When the movie “Planet of the Apes” was being filmed, the actors were of all races, sexes and creeds. When in costume, interestingly enough, the “apes” hung out with the apes, the “orangutans” ate lunch only with orangutans, and “Gorillas” kept to themselves. We are no different in our approach to the hobby.

Since life’s like that, the best thing to do is just get on with it and ignore everybody.

[vsmith]

Cappy

A lot of this goes back to the first wave of garden railroaders back in the 70' and early 80's when LGB was the only game in town. the large shiny perfect never weathered trains had a decidely toylike almost tinplate shiny look to them. and running them thru perfectly manicured miniature gardens lead the derisive phrase "plastic in the petunias" nomicure being applied by "serious" model railroaders to the garden variety. The fact that there were few if any large scalers willing to due serious prototype large scale layouts (the ones that did were doing finescael but indoors and mostley scratchbuilt) didnt help. Many "serious" modelers were doing HO, were in the NMRA, and looked down on anything "outside" the mainstream of the hobby. As time progressed and new manufacturers enetered the large scale arena, namely Kalamazoo at first, then Delton, whos model while being frighteningly expensive, were also fabulously detailed. Delton really opened the eyes of many small scale modelers to the real potential of large scale. but i feel it was Bachmann entering the feild that really had the biggest impact. Bachmann introduced a low price, accessable and easy to operate product that was the first step for many in large scale today into the garden, and to Bachmanns credit they continued to upgrade their Big Hualer engines with each generation.

But the schism remained between the "serious" model railroaders in HO and N and those " Petunia people" running thier trains thru the shrubbery. It didnt help that many early outdoor railroads were pretty kitschty by todays standards. It also doesnt help that when you go to your local "Toys-R-Us" the only thing even close to large scale is an Uber-crapper New Bright set. That is unfortunatly MOST peoples visual impression of large scale set, cheap POS kiddie toy quality or frightingly expensive LGB. But as more "serious" modelers ventured into the garden and the layouts got more "realistic" there is a shift more towards a begrudging acceptance by the rest of the "serious" modelers.

A good point was the NMRA standards debacle a couple years ago, the NMRA came up with a set of scale and wheel guidelines but they presented it more as an ultimatum, than as suggestions to improve the hobby, they got the brush off by the hobby. They noticed that large scale was suddenly a pretty good chunk of the hobby and tried to impose a measure of control similar to that they have on HO and N. If they had approached manufacturers back when Kalamazoo Delton and Bachmann were just entering the fray, it might be very different today.

As more and more excellent model engines like Bachmann's Spectrum line, AMS cars, and the well detailed but off-whack scale Aristo and USA stuff continues to grow, and MORE importantly, as these crusty old fart rivet counting a-hole card carrying NMRA modelers get older and it gets to $#% hard to put those $%# N gauge wheels onto the tracks...that $%# "Plastic in the Petunia" but now very well detailed, very easy to see, and now very easy to find well made detailed close to prototype rolling stock starts looking pretty $%#@ appealing.....Some even begrudgingly acknowledging that the off-scale 1/29 stuff WAS pretty nice looking. I feel alot of the newest members to the large scale community are in this class, moving up in scale as age and income increase. I'm young, very young at 41 by LS standards.

LS still has several stigmas to overcome. HO will always be king, no getting around that. But I have noticed most new LS modelers also have pre-existing layouts in N, HO, O or S, but are moving outdoors to allow them to enjoy their yards and thier hobby at the same time. i suspect this will be a common condition as time goes by. Give it time, Vic

[Marty Cozad]

Capt
I used to be one of the HOers who thought the idea of running trains around a tree, through flowers was totally DUMB.
Now I am tring to dispell all the things they say about us and show them what out door model RRing is all about. The manufactures are helping by producing some great models. Now all we have to do is NOT fight with each other.
I was at a GATS show this weekend and I still can't believe I spent so many years in HO.
Of-course the live steamers don't think we are modeling either simple cause its not a "real working "engine.

[vsmith]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tangerine-jack



Now there are fundamental differences between indoor HO scale and outdoor G scale, and if I had to go over them here, then you are probably too stupid walk and chew gum at the same time. These differences are enough that Garden RRing is, in all reality, a totally different hobby.

Think about how much of your N scale experience actually applies outside in the garden with all the insects, leaves and effects of Mother Nature. Apart from a general appreciation of trains, not much really, is there? I don’t think too many Garden RR have newspaper and plaster scenery, or hundreds of tiny artificial trees. Imagine the horror of finding a bird on your N scale pike, or worse yet, putting your layout where it can be rained on! Outdoors that doesn’t matter, in fact it is expected.

Jack

You do raise an issue that I didnt. The skills required for outdoor modeling are VERY different from indoor, I know because I've tried them both. Oudoors requires dealing with the weather, heat, cold, sun, rain, snow, etc. Critters, insects, pets, have to considered. how to lay your track so it doesnt wash away in the first rains. Its all VERY different fron indoor model RRs where the standards and processes have really changed in over 50 years. Even though what I'm doing is large scale, its conceptually IDENTICAL to what John Allen was doing 50 years ago. thers a continum of knowledge. I can build a complete layout simply by "following the instuctions" set forth by over 50 years of layout building. It can be done by the book.

Whereas in the Garden,...ITS ALL CUSTOM that is its specific to each yard, climate and circumstances for each modeler. If you and I built an indoor HO layout to the same plan, we could concevably built the EXACT same layout, right down to the same lichen bushes and Plasticville houses. But if we decided to build two garden RR's there is likely no way they would end up lookin the same. Space constraints, orientaion, climate zone, and soil conditions would lead to two similar, but different and unique layouts. Thats another big difference.

[grandpopswalt]

Cappy,

As we practice our hobby today, there is a fundamental and irreconcilable difference between us and our HO and N scale brethren. They attempt to recreate reality in miniature form by controlling the setting that they work in. We, on the other hand, attempt to integrate the fantasy of our miniature trains into the reality of the garden. The approach and mind-set are completely different. However, as LS equipment continues to improve and become more faithful to the prototype, I think we’re going to move more toward them. We might even evolve into Large Scale Outdoor Railroaders rather than Garden Railroaders.

Walt

[Anonymous]

Capt,

It's like this: They say look at the size of those flanges! [:O] They are way out of scale. And those flowers are too big as well.
But you can throw a couple of rocks on the ground and stuff in a few plants and flowers and sit back and enjoy the trains[^]
5 years later they will still be tearing their hair out still trying to make those plaster-of-paris mountains actually look like real rocks[:D]

I got into this to build and run trains, not hibernate in some dark room with no windows trying to build scenery. Now I'm a bit of a slow learner. It took me 15 years to work that out (why I was never satisfied with any of the small scale railways I tried to build), but when I finally figured that out, I changed to G scale.
Now don't get me wrong, some people are really good at building realistic scenery, but I'm not one of them!

Glen.

[powlee]

I am glad to read some of your comments on NMRA standards. As a Brit, I didn`t come across such laid down conditions.
I modelled in 00 British outline for years graduating outside with 00 for about 15 years. I started buying HO american when my local shop started selling on a big scale. I was impressed with the performance and then quality at a farther lower price than I was used to.
I started reading Model Railroader. Every other article was quoting things like

`It is not quite to NMRA standard but can be improved`.

`The height is not quite NMRA standard`.

I was beginning to worry that this NMRA was a god not to crossed.
It looked alright to me so it was alright !!

O gauge was a more common sight at our shows. I have to admit that when I was first aware of G scale in the form of LGB, it looked out of my league pricewise. LGB still is in my book.
None of my fellow club members were into any form of LS. It only started as a suggestion from my wife when we buying some HO in a Miami store. I had said it looked a bit expensive but she said it would look better in our garden and would probably weather better. She said I always seemed to be replacing bits of track lately. AND I WOULD NOT NEED SO MUCH ROLLING STOCK !!
She got that bit wrong.

Although I still run OO/HO at my club, I joined the G Scale Society (check out their website) to meet fellow enthusiasts. I am still the new boy, only been to a couple of meets, but I will be holding a meet in our garden this year so hopefully will meet a few more.

I agree with Marty. The live steamers don`t think electric are real engines.
I don`t care. I am not too good at modifying locos,etc. but I can build bridges and ponds and I can just sit forever and watch my GP9 hauling 8 boxcars round the garden.
We visited the garden centre for new plants and small conifers. I had to make some concessions. Although she has remarked that the sound system winging it`s way from Texas to the UK will probably disturb her while laying comatose on the sun lounger.
G Scale suppliers are very few in the UK. Why buy my Phoenix Sound from the US?
$270 in the US. I was quoted equivalent $550 in the UK.

Ian P

[tangerine-jack]

Good thoughts there, Glen and Walt. If any *** want's to get into it with me and start throwing things, I believe his plaster rocks would hurt a great deal less than my real ones!

On the subject of flanges, I have a 4x8 HO in a spare room for the winter months and when I operate it, I must watch the scale trains as they run. Because of the "out of scale" flanges on my G stuff, I can set the train to run a loop, and then go to the grocery store, Home Depot, dinner, movies etc and the train will still be on track and running when I return. Sometimes I forget about it and leave the train running all night. Try that with HO, unless you are a flawless builder, you will have a train wreck to pick up. Not that it isn't possible in HO to achieve excellent reliability, it's just orders of magnitude easier in G.




[oX)]

[Anonymous]

Very good points, Thanks to all and keep them coming.

I like being able to be in the open air. I imagine that our hobby is more like the real thing in that grading is pretty much real, washouts and equipment wear. I enjoy the gardening aspect, gives me time to think play with my daughter outdoors.

[Anonymous]

I used to model in HO and was real good at it. When I belonged to the "White Pines Model Railroad" in Elmhurst Ill. I ran 100 car trains all day long without a problem . However as I got older it was harder to detail in 1/87th . When I first saw a outdoor railroad my wife said "can we do this in our backyard ? " and I said sure. Tell the truth , looking at a couple of 20 pound dash 9's compressing the track below it and the cars squeaking and making their own sounds I got hooked.The fact that I am lucky enough to have a wife as into this hobby as I am makes it even better . I love all trains not only one scale . Each have their own good and bad points. But for me now its BIG , HEAVY trains rolling through the backyard . Cant beat those beautyfull summer days cutting the grass and watching the trains going around with a cold beer and the grille going .

[kstrong]

The fundamental difference between indoor and outdoor railroading...

Indoors: Modelers spend hours upon hours painstakingly inserting weeds between the rails.

Outdoors: Modelers spend hours upon hours painstakingly removing them.

Doesn't get much simpler than that...

Later,

K

[Capt Bob Johnson]

Flying Capt,
I note that you get double duty out of most of your questions. You tend to phrase them so that you also get a running commentary on philosophy, or are you just trying to figure out how the non hispanic mind works? Life is a learning experiance, and I appreciate one who can get double or triple milage out of one simple question. You must spend hours working out how to phrase something! I like that, you are what I would call a wordsmith!
the floating Capt.

[SandyR]

To me, my garden railroad is a REAL railroad. It's just smaller than 1:1. It's had its share of washouts and debris on the track. But in 11 years of running, only four derailments. And it's big enough that I can see it! Is it prototypical? Well, to me, it is its own prototype. And I enjoy it for what it is. A railroad running through a garden of dwarf (and not-so-dwarf) conifers, with just a few flowers, and a few buildings. It's mine, I love it, end of discussion. Period.
SandyR

[Anonymous]

SANDYR
I agree with you , I run what i like, with some flowers and a few home made buildings
in the garden , they suit me , and i like what i am doing . [:)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Capt Bob Johnson

Flying Capt,
I note that you get double duty out of most of your questions. You tend to phrase them so that you also get a running commentary on philosophy, or are you just trying to figure out how the non hispanic mind works? Life is a learning experiance, and I appreciate one who can get double or triple milage out of one simple question. You must spend hours working out how to phrase something! I like that, you are what I would call a wordsmith!
the floating Capt.

Floating Capt,

Thank you for the kind words. I have honed my skills in the political forums where even the slightest metaphorical mis-step can lose you a debate. I try, above all, to avoid misunderstanings.

Thanks again for the comment, I really enjoy reading all the responses. This is one of the best classrooms going on teh internet!

[Rastun]

I think all the other scales are jealous. They look at our backgrounds and they realize they can't duplicate them no mater how hard they try. Our layouts change as the years and the seasons move along. We aren't stuck with a moment of weather always there. Sure it would be nice if it was sunny and clear skied everyday. But lets face it with out the weather we don't have the streams and rivers and lakes that make up these grand visions that the smaller scales try to copy. So basically they shun us for working in an ever changing medium, that can in itself dictate what we do, and challenge our creativity to overcome obstacles and triumph in nature just like our 1:1 building forefathers had to oh so many years ago. [swg]

Take care

Jack

[tangerine-jack]

I agree with Ratsun, small scales will NEVER be as cool as us![8D]



[oX)]

[bman36]

Hey there,
I find the groups are just different. Kinda' like people who like to drive cars versus those who prefer trucks or SUV's. We can break that down further to the "Antique" group versus the "Hot Rodders" if you will. Just like cars I find Model RR's to be divided up the same way. Each scale seems to attract like types of people. Interesting question Capt. Later eh...Brian.

[cacole]

It must be something in your local water. Out here in the dry Arizona desert 4 out of 20 members of our HO scale club also have G scale at their homes, 4 or 5 also have N scale, one has Lionel O scale, and one has the new Bachmann On30; so even though we are primarily an HO scale club, members do dabble in the other sizes at both extremes. Oh, yes, and one person has TT.

[grandpopswalt]

Hey Cappy,

There it is. All the great minds of this forum have weighed in now and the overwhelming conclusion is that LS'ers are from earth and everybody else is from ......................... some other planet.

Walt

[Anonymous]

Hi Capt Carrales
I can relate to the small scale side of things and thinking about it
have come to the following conclusions
Jealousy doesn't come in to it.
The NMRA's non standard comes in to it
They don't understand that our railways are in the real world so elephant proof rail is used as a matter of course and that a true "G" scale doesn't exist and even if it did a "G" fine scale model has no place in the garden
As they have far too many fiddely bits that break too worry about
I also think that the early Toy rather than semi scale and inconsistency between variouse manufacturers in our size has a lot to do with it.
I do wonder some times if the casual BBQ beer and social fun aspects of the Garden fraternaty are mistaken for not taking the hobby as seriously as we really do.
I also think the Garden railway people concentrate more on the pleasure
our hobby brings to ourselves our families and others
as apposed to the indoor boys.
I have seen a real rip snorter of a heated discusion over the correct valve gear for a particular locomotive.
A thing unlikley to happen in the garden world
well that must be at least 4c worth[:D]
regards John

[Anonymous]

I think it takes far less effort to make a given scene outside, throw in some rocks and plants, track ballast ect with a loco and some rolling stock and your done in a couple of weeks... or more, you can have a realistic layout. Smaller scales are all worried about backdrops, benchwork, DCC, NMRA etc. Can anyone really see the detail on HO or N?

I think their just jealous over the natural lighting[:D], I''ve seen several articals published where a smaller scale was taken outside to achieve what Marty Cozad does all the time " Is it real? or just outside?"

[Anonymous]

For me, modelrailroading allows the modeller to tasp into that part of themselves that always wanted to drive a train. Agree?

Well, the only reallife indoor trains I have seen are in metro subways. If HO moddelers were fair dinkum, their WHOLE layout would be in a tunnell!

The great trains of the world are outside! I've seen countless episodes of Casey Jones where some act of nature blocked the track. The Ghan in Central Australia always had to contend with flooded or washed away track. So when nature attacks my garden with it'sfuture railway in it, that's an element of realism that the indoors mob would never get.

I have baulked on the idea for a few years now, basically because all of the sets that I had seen seemed small, almost childishlocos with little red carriages behind them. The HO range is phenomenal - allowing the hobbyist to recreate in detail what happens on the track in real life. However, from what I have seen lately, G scale is fast catching up. I want to run a real train around my garden, not a toy puffing billy. As G scale manufacturers conquer THAT problem at a similar cost, a huge pillar of support for indoor layouts will be gone.

The other factor is that a shed or a room for an indoor layout is an expensive thing to erect. My outside is already there. One acre of layout ready to roll!

[DSchmitt]

NMRA members can be very cliquish. There were some (mostly gone now or have learned better) very active HO'ers in who didn't consider any scale scale but HO to be real model railroading. Because of this there are a number of very talented N scalers who will have nothing to do with the organization.

NMRA standards are developed by volunteer members. Early large scale/garden railway modelers came from outside the established model railroad community. Most didn't see any common ground with the NMRA , even if they had heard of it. More recently some small scallers have gone into large scale and some large scalers have joined and become active in the NMRA.

The NMRA did not, and in fact could not, come up with standards for large scale until there were members with the interest, knowledge and willingness to do so. The standards are not an attempt by the NMRA to take over. They are an attempt by some large scale modelers to impose some order and improve compatability.

It is probably too late in the game for the NMRA large scale standards to have any real affect.

[markperr]

I think Glen hit the proverbial nail right on the head. When you model a smaller scale in an environment that is never changing and everytime you look at it you're looking at the same snapshot in time, then the only thing you have to work toward is being as faithful to that snapshot in time as possible. In the dynamic outdoor environment, you have to deal with sudden rainstorms, trying to plow snow off your rails, high winds, animals crossing the track, washouts, UV damage that needs constant repairing. Couple that with living growing plants that every year make your railroad look just a little different than it did the year before and the difference becomes more of a chasm than a schism.

To each his own, I say. Long live the ten foot rule.

Mark

[ondrek]

I am one of those who like both HO and G, I dont look down on either, but what i have found is slightly different.

within the HO group, you have sub groups, those who are "make it look real or else" and those who like me, just want to have fun. I find that the two cant mix too well even within the same scale group. What i also find is that usually those that are not open to the idea of G scale are the same people who are the hard core realism modelers. i approach it like this, have fun, if not dont do it.

those that spend hours and hours trying to make their foam look like real rock, i have this to say, use real rocks, thats what i am going to do, my HO layout has a rock face and i will use real rock to do it, why? its better, its easier, and the rock was FREE.

I cant wait for spring to come, i want to build my G layout this year, i really do.
Kevin

[Bucksco]

I have been a "scale" model builder for years. I've actually spent many of my adult years doing it as a proffesional "design engineer" aka model maker. I have found that when I get too serious about details (recreating reality in miniature) it tends to take the enjoyment and relaxation away from what was originally suppossed to be a diversion from reality.
This is only MY opinion.

[Anonymous]

Well gentlemen you have plesantly surprised me, we actually have some brains amongst us, amateur philsophers even.

I tried to join the local railway club here on the Sunshine Coast and found that the peole involved were lame brains and the subjects they talked about were very small. Small people talking about small subjects in a very small way. Cauvanistic, egotistical nig nogs, is what i thought of them.

However the Garden Railway club I belonged to in Sydney was a different matter, odd people certainly, as are many people in model Railways. However we met monthly in different peoples homes / gardens; the actual meeting took about ten minutes the "runnings" took hours well into the night and very occasionally all night. Not just a bunch of blokes talking about very little, but all sorts of people from grandads to little kids. Have a glass of wine if you liked, have a barby; all outside and in the great Aussie sun.

You could give me the biggest indoor HO guage layout that was in existance and i would not accept it.


Regrds

Ian

[Anonymous]

Thank you folks,

This has been a very fruitful topic for my continuing education in all things Railroad.

Has anyone ever attemped to try to use the "screen and plaster" method outdoors? Could it be done with mortar or cement? It this less viable than building a real mountain out of gravel et al?