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Going from Conceptualization to Planning -- What Else to Consider?

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Going from Conceptualization to Planning -- What Else to Consider?
Posted by PVT Kanaka on Saturday, December 28, 2013 6:57 PM
Aloha! I got my 30+ year old LGB trains out of the box two years ago for Christmas, then took them outside last Christmas...and an idea was hatched. Could this be a permanent feature of our yard? Anyway, I subscribed to the magazine, got Kevin Strong's "Garden Railway Basics," and took stock of equipment, time, money, environment, etc... Here is what a year's worth of study revealed, and I am hoping for some feedback before shovel hits ground: 1.) The yard floods to about 2-3 inches in some parts, so this needs to be somewhat elevated. Ground termites nix wooden risers, so a garden inside a retaining wall is the way to go. 2.) This has to start with "go with what I got," lots of bright, shiny, LGB 0-4-0s and related rolling stock and all running on track power. Converting to DCC or battery power is a price tag too far. Actually, the locos and rolling stock are not to different from what used to run out here in the height of the sugar era, so this is OK. 3.) The dog and small children means that the fine scale reproduction of a sugar mill is out for now, but, again, I want to leave room to expand, add water features, build a town, etc. in the future, possibly roping in family members as their concept of play matures. The question I cannot answer from just observing life around me are below: 1.) Should I add a mountain I plan as a visual divider at the start, or can that be added later? 2.) Should electrical pick-ups be hard wired into the track or, given I am in the tropics, am I better off leaving a point to attach the wiring when I run this? I am not sure when the groundbreaking will be. Finances dictate the retaining wall material and fill will have to be salvaged and installed by myself, and that is the long leg. After that, I imagine actually digging the roadbed and installing the LGB sectional track should be rather "quick." I appreciate any feedback and advice!
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Posted by ttrigg on Monday, December 30, 2013 12:13 PM
Just a few hints: Fill material, if you have a separate pickup of yard waste along with other recyclables, check to see if “recycled yard waste” is available. We have 3 waste streams where I live (Oceanside CA), trash, recyclables (paper, plastic, metals, etc.), and “green waste” (lawn clippings to tree parts.) The green waste is ground up and processed. Since I pay to have it hauled off, I can get all the mulch and compost I would ever need. I could check in with my truck and shovel and load the truck by hand for free, but I prefer to pay the bucket-loader operator $2 to fill my truck, about 1 ½ cubic yards at a time. I blended with 50% “fill dirt. Something for you to look into. The drawback is that after about 5 years a 30 inch deep bed will settle down to about 25 inches. Hook ups: Permanent attachment of the wires to rails is preferred. I use “Split-Jaw” rail clamp electrical clamps for all my wiring and have had no problems for well over 15 years. I use the wiring for “Malibu Lights” for my main electrical lines with the Malibu power taps as feeder wires from main wire to rails. Again, I’ve had no malfunction in the last 15 years. Rail type. The type of rail totally depends on the operator/owner. The drawback for sectional track is those little brass slip-on connectors. They tend to collect dirt, corrosion and such and loose their electrical connection over time. I use mostly 5-foot “flexible” rails with “Split-Jaw” rail connectors. (15-year maintenance free.) To reduce the cost of connectors, I solder 2 rail sections into a 10-foot length using the slip-on connector. A rail bender is a very good option. There are times when the standard radius of sectional track will not provide the curve needed to dodge a rose bush or other obstacle. Slit-Jaw rail clamps allow me to lift my turnouts (switches) for cleaning & maintenance without disturbing the rails they are attached to. I do use sectional curves in my passing sidings (provides perfect location for electrical isolation on passing track) and in my rail yard. Planning: I would suggest constructing the foundation for your mountain as you begin laying track. This will allow you to add or subtract to the mountain as your empire grows. Build the rail network in stages. I began with my basic oval and put turn-outs everywhere I thought I wanted future expansion, I wanted a yard “over there” and DA BOSS (wife) wanted to be able to send a train off into the distance, thus the 4-year expansion from the basic oval to the other side of the yard around her fruit trees. “Pre-positioning” the turn-outs made the job much easier over time. I have one 15-year old “pre-positioned” turn-out that has just become a stub siding, still waiting future growth(?). I hope my “maximum verbosity” has not bored you and has given a hint or two.

Tom Trigg

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Posted by PVT Kanaka on Tuesday, December 31, 2013 3:03 AM
Thanks! There is no one out here doing garden railroading, so I am drinking up whatever data I can get. We, too, have a green waste recycling system, that sounds similar to what you have. With "red dirt" from a buddy's farm, I think I have the fill part answered. I am looking to source rocks / bricks / whatever for the bed, trying to recycle rather than buying new. The rainy season is just getting going, so I have a few more months of soft ground for digging. One quick and easy question...I've seen "split-jaw" advertised in GR Magazine, but what are "Malibu Lights?"
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Posted by cacole on Wednesday, January 1, 2014 8:23 AM

Malibu Lights are landscaping lights, usually low-voltage through a transformer.  Malibu lights wiring is two-conductor, stranded wire with a thick, black plastic insulation suitable for buried installation.

http://totalledmalibulighting.com/?gclid=CJzTyp-W3bsCFY5ufgodUBIAbQ

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Posted by PVT Kanaka on Wednesday, January 1, 2014 1:42 PM
Ah! Thanks! I'll be breaking down the Christmas display this week. That will give me full inventory of the LGB sectional track I own. I am not ignoring your suggestion to use flex track, but reinvesting in new track will delay this project indefinitely. I have at least enough to make a nice oval with several sidings (Those little "switch houses" in the last issue of GR were simply genius), so your idea of electrically isolated sidings will be pretty easy to incorporate, too. The goal, btw, is to have a loop at least long enough to get cold beverages from the lanai to the grill area, about 30 feet.
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Posted by Narrowgauge on Wednesday, January 1, 2014 5:19 PM

PVT - I am not real familiar with Hawaii, so here goes from the common sense perspective.  An alternative method might be to use the 'ladder system' for sub road bed.  My club used 2" PVC pipe for stanchions, and 1/2 x 1 1/2 or 2 bender boards.  Like north Florida on the mainland, freezing is not an issue.  I read between the lines that this layout will not be raised real high (say 12-18"). Using the ladder system will allow you to get up and running much faster and the beds and fill can come later.

Some additional reading and some great people for help can be found at the Large Scale Central forum, My Large Scale forum, Ask the Bachmann forum and the Aristo Craft forum.  I will also plug my club web site www.ecgrc.com, where there are links to all the above mentioned fora and some good suppliers as well.

Happy Railroading!

Bob C.

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Posted by PVT Kanaka on Thursday, January 2, 2014 11:19 PM
Bob C. Thanks for the reply and the links! As it turned out, the "ladder system" was the first or second thread on Large Scale Central. You are correct I am looking at raising the road about 12-18". Higher would require a permit. Lower would subject it to the occasional flood in some reaches of the yard. The ladder system would have to pass CINCHOUSE (Commander-in-Chief, House) aesthetics test, of course. Another issue is durability, as my three little allies in this project are the kids, ranging in 18 mos. to 5 1/2 years. We also have a cattle dog. He could care less about the trains, but he may take an interest in any raised tracks! As for frost, other than Hale'akala and Maunakea, nope, no worries! Where I live, it a mile and half inland the hazards are rail surface corrosion from the tradewinds, the daily drizzle / downpour, tropical sunlight, and termites. The price of Paradise!
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Posted by vsmith on Monday, January 6, 2014 11:00 AM

You may not have frost, but how much rain do you get yearly? Rain can be every bit of a PITA as snow or frost heave. I haven't read what your planning to do to provide a base under the track. Where I live, SoCal Los Angeles, we get so little rain  that we can simply float the track, laying it on top of a thick bed of crushed gravel, its great but if it rains alot, the ballast can and does get washed away, or with a geofabric barrier placed under, can migrate into the soil  under and next to the track. 

You mention a ladder system, which can be laid at ground lever and is a good choice to keep everything on the square, given your moisture (flooding) issues, I would suggest any ladder be made of Trex decking boards (Artificial wood) with PVC posts every 3 or so feet 

One thing to keep in mind, Trex type wood while great at not rotting in the wet, can warp and does eventually sag under extreme heat, thats why I suggested keeping the posts much closer than what you usually see discussed. More than one elevated layout builder has reported sagging under extreme heat when the posts were about 6' apart.

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by ttrigg on Monday, January 6, 2014 12:22 PM
PVT Kanaka: Just wanted to remind you of one very important unwritten rule on this site. The only stupid question is the question not asked. As I’m sure you have already seen, there are a number of folks most willing to share knowledge and experiences. Not only do we share what has worked for us but also what has not worked. In my case, I have learned that the ground level empire I started almost 20 years ago is now too low to accommodate the knees and hips of antiquity. I’m about 1-½ years into constructing a 32 inch raised bed. The cost of using DG (decomposed granite) has seriously slowed construction of the new empire, as did the breaking of the hip. I hope to begin ripping up the old empire and building the new this coming fall. Yesterday was my first run on the old layout since I broke the hip in July. My gardener had kept the weeds out, so all I needed to do was a quick cleaning of the rails using a battery powered unit pulling a track-cleaning car and I was back in business. One key to a successful empire is a well-drained layout. As you have already stipulated a slightly raised area, I would suggest numerous “weep holes” in your base layer of blocks. In my case I left out the mortar between the bricks on the bottom layer. I put a layer of gardening cloth between the bricks and the fill preventing any seepage of fill through the cracks. (Gardening cloth = a fabric available in most garden centers that allows water and air to pass and is advertised to prevent weeds from growing through.)

Tom Trigg

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Posted by eheading on Tuesday, January 7, 2014 8:01 AM

I gather that you are in Hawaii. Don't know for sure, but I would guess that your weather is at least as mild as ours here in Florida in the winter, and probably a little cooler in the summer? Not being a purist, and having a yard that under the grass is mostly sand, I just laid my track on the ground with roofing material under it to look like ballast. I have had very little problems with it over the past 10 years. One thing you might think about is laying out your track on the ground and running it that way for awhile. If you find that you don't want to make changes in the layout, and that you want a more secure base, you can always go with your ladder system then.

Also, I have found that I will NEVER be able to have detailed buildings, people, animals, etc to go with my railroad. Our dogs, the squirrels, etc. do a real number of small details. My wife has tried to make me a beautiful farmyard, a cemetary for our church, etc., and they last about 2 weeks before they are destroyed. Now I mostly stick to buildings, vehicles, and a few minor small details, which I make sure to glue down to a substrate before placing them outside.

Best of luck to you as you develop your railroad. Sounds like you are going to do a lot more extensive "pre-track" work than I did. I mostly laid my track on the ground and went with it from there. Fortunately (or unfortunately) my yard is very level.

Ed

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Posted by ttrigg on Tuesday, January 7, 2014 5:56 PM
Another quick tip for you to place in the filing cabinet for later use. For all my people, cows, horses, dogs, pigs and other small movable items (tree stumps with squirrels, trash cans being invaded by raccoons etc). Drill a small hole up a leg and insert a thin stiff wire/long thin nail. Stick the wire into the ground and they will stand for quite some time. After rain I like to take a small bowl of water and give them all a bath (just a quick dip) and put them back in the ground. Occasionally my work crew needs to do some maintenance on the timber trestle bridge, drill a small hole in the timbers and they work for days without falling to their death. Also provides a nice handle when they need repainting. Did you just open a box and found a chunk of Styrofoam packing? Just stick their “peg leg” into the Styrofoam for excellent storage, painting etc. MUCH better than tossing them in a box. New folks and critters are stored safely until I build/find the item they go around.

Tom Trigg

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Posted by eheading on Tuesday, January 7, 2014 6:38 PM

That's a good idea, Tom. thanks!

Ed

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Posted by PVT Kanaka on Tuesday, January 7, 2014 9:32 PM
Everyone, These are some great ideas! I have been bouncing them off "Garden Railway Basics," my just-arrived "Gorgeous Garden Railroads," and my back issues of GR as well as some of the recommended sites. In between, I have received CINCHOUSE approval in the form of a just-arrived late Christmas gift...an LGB track pack! We are boxing up (sigh) my old "friends" tomorrow, which will give me a complete inventory of track. I had hoped to plan by laying out different arrangements as suggested above, but that got nixed, so I'll try the freeware I found on-line. I have tried to absorb all the issues and ideas generated - drainage, accessibility, durability, and flexibility - outlined above, and we are working to combine them into our own assessed needs and desires taking into account the yard's other uses and physical limitations. Budget permitting, ground breaking will be in mid-February. If I can figure out how to post photos, I'll hang a picture of what I am working with. Aloha!
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Posted by PVT Kanaka on Tuesday, January 7, 2014 9:46 PM
Ed, grass on sand is about what we have. Having lived in Orlando, yes, our summers are a bit nicer!
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Posted by PVT Kanaka on Thursday, January 9, 2014 12:58 AM
VSMITH, I had planned to just float the track on gravel. I had assumed that would be "good enough." Hunting about this site has made me wonder...Our rainy seasons is roughly November to March, though it drizzles nearly daily, and reported averages for my part of the island range from 20 inches to 60 inches! My area probably trends to the low side due to geography. Cost control is a serious consideration, so I guess I have to weigh a smaller, better anchored layout now or a larger one that gets all of the track out of boxes but may require more work to maintain or future work to provide a better anchor.
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Posted by vsmith on Thursday, January 9, 2014 1:52 PM

PVT Kanaka
VSMITH, I had planned to just float the track on gravel. I had assumed that would be "good enough." Hunting about this site has made me wonder...Our rainy seasons is roughly November to March, though it drizzles nearly daily, and reported averages for my part of the island range from 20 inches to 60 inches! My area probably trends to the low side due to geography. Cost control is a serious consideration, so I guess I have to weigh a smaller, better anchored layout now or a larger one that gets all of the track out of boxes but may require more work to maintain or future work to provide a better anchor.

If your rainfall isn't that high then you should be just fine floating the track on the gravel base. Just give yourself a sufficient base under, I used 2" crushed gravel but it was way too thin and weeds were a constant issue as they would grow right thru the so called weed barriers, on a recent area I used put down a 5" thick path of crushed gravel, still get weeds but they come straight out. The weed barrier fabric works best to keep your gravel from migrating into the surrounding soil, so dont skip it.

As for anchoring the track down, you'd be surprised how well the track stays in place once its covered with a crushed rock ballast. I used both the little plastic LGB tie-clips on the LGB track and the set screws on Aristo/USA track. I used track clamps between the two brand, be sure to use conductive grease in the joiners, the stuff actually works if your using track power.

   Have fun with your trains

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Posted by ttrigg on Thursday, January 9, 2014 11:01 PM
I second Vic's comment on using weed cloth to keep stones from migrating. Stop by your local garden rock/gravel store to see if they carry a product called "Stabilizer" In a previous posting [subject] "Gravel Glue" several of us had a lengthy discussion about different products and techniques of keeping ballast in position. link: http://cs.trains.com/grw/f/6/t/159524.aspx

Tom Trigg

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