G Gauge/Scale Japanese Skinkansen 500 Bullet Train ??

[Toy Maker]

[Toy Maker]

MAJOR UPDATE !!!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE.... Follow and LIKE this project on Facebook from now on.
https://www.facebook.com/Shinkansen500 

It's a little too much for me to keep posting in 3-4 different places/forums trying to keep everyone updated. 
My son has set up a Facebook Page: https://www.facebook.com/Shinkansen500 
This is where he and I will be uploading photos, videos, and new info. It's much easier, and pretty much automatic to upload to FB from any of our phones, and cameras now. 




This project has been going pretty slow over the last year. Been slammed with work at the shop, and haven't had much time to work on hobbies. 

This week, my son took on a few parts, and I thought I'd update everyone. 

He worked on a jig that took 2 days to build, that allows us to lock the cars in place, and machine the windows, doors, and any other openings that need to be cut from the sides. 
He also machined a few end-caps for the cars. We needed to do a few tests to see which would be the tightest fitting inserts the help keep the extrusion to the perfect shape for the outer end-caps to fit perfectly. 

Please go to the FP page to see the new parts

[Toy Maker]

 

Well this project is going "Slow but Sure"

I have been having to learn a whole new world of 3D design. 

These complex compound surfaces are very tricky to redesign

The hard part is almost over, and the nose design work is almost finished.

I opted to go back to AutoCAD for the nose cone. The new 2013 version now has ALLOT of the same features that SolidWorks has, but it much more flexible in the drawing department.

The hard part is over. Now I just have to do the bottom skirt portion on the nose. 

 

My son also just bought an awesome new toy..... 

Should make making all these custom parts MUCH faster and easier.

watch?v=Sx2AvY2Qsa8

 

 

[Toy Maker]

Well, all the extrusion profiles came in today. Guess it's about time to start doing some REAL work

soon.

[Toy Maker]

Sorry for the long time gaps between posts, but this is a pretty slow moving project, since so much of the project has to be shipped in.

The full batch of aluminum extrusion pieces are complete, and on their way to the US as I type. The motors have been bought and paid for, and are on their way.

I am super excited to see all these parts coming in at the same time.

 

As for the number of motors...  I have gotten some amazing advice on the forums from a few people.

One of which is a guy that is a servo motor engineer, who spent a number of hours helping me calculate the (weight / torque / traction / RPM) ratios of this train.

Each car is going to be in the neighborhood of 5 pounds for a total train weight of about  75-100 pounds

The big problem, was getting the train up to "full scale speed" within a reasonable amount of time.

The train will run on fewer motors, but you will start to run into traction, and ramp-up speed problems.  With this many motors, the train will get up to speed faster, and will little to no slippage.

 

I have also met a new local friend here is Fort Myer, one of my daughters frineds father.. and we are talking about running the nose cones from solid blocks of aluminum again.
He just moved to Florida, and is looking for somewhere to setup his 4-axes CnC milling machine :) and it's looking like my shop might be the perfect place for it.
So very shortly, I may be able to 3D mill all the needed parts IN HOUSE !!! GOD that would be NICE !!! This guy is a Soldworks master, and is willing to teach me everything I'd need to know.

So, things are moving forward, and looking GREAT. I can't wait for parts to start showing up...

I'll post some more as soon as I have something for you guys.
Hope everyone's hollidays were great !!!!

James

[Toy Maker]

I thinned out the material where the windows go. The entire profile is 2mm thick, except around the windows, there it's only 1mm thick. I made little micro notches top and bottom of the window, that I can just snap in a strip of .005 - .010 thick acetate behind the metal.

The material thickness will be so thin, it should look really clean when the windows are put in.

 

As for cutting everything...   I have (2) CnC router tables, each is 6' x 12'.

The plan so far is to make a master jig, that will hold the 36" long car in place, and will have removable window pattern inserts for each of the different car window/door spacings.

Since there are 12 different car layouts, it will be easier this way, than to set up everything in the machine. Building custom jigs for the machine is fine if you are going to run 50-100 of the same thing, but running 16 cars, where 12 are different, isn't worth the setup time.

I will probably be cutting the windows with a trim router. I have tons of cutting tools.

Building the jig will be the tough part, but once it's setup, doing the actual cutting will go really fast. I'd expect I could do each car in 10-15 minutes at worst.

[cabbage]

That is lovely! You will in effect have a monocoque construction for your carriages and with the extruder die -make them like a string of sausages... Fettling out all the windows etc is going to take time -but already you can see the thing as a whole. (Unfortunately my current loco is held in two ice cream tubs.) This when finished is not going to be a model -more a work of art(!)

regards

ralph

[Toy Maker]

Back from vacation !!! 
Sorry it's been a while since I posted, had a ton of personal stuff going on... (still do)
but at least now, I have my head above water.

Just wanted to update everyone on the Bullet train.

I finished the drawings, and sent them off to the extruder.

Here's what I got back as a "sample"

 

 

 

Coming along, slowly but surely !!!

[Toy Maker]

 Well, I went ahead and bought a few different brushless motors last night off eBay. These motors might work just perfectly for what I am thinking about doing.
Most of these motors COME APART...  Which means I can make custom drive shafts for them. They are also small enough to place BETWEEN the wheels.
Direct drive on as many axles as I want. I am thinking all 4 axles on 2 cars (8 motors) should be plenty of power. These motors can be driven via the track voltage, or they will be able to be run off battery packs.

They will be in this week or next, than I can do some real testing on them, and see which ones will work best for this application.

[cabbage]

Don't worry about the sychronization of the motors. The weight of the loco on the track will force all the motors to revolve at the same rate. What you will have to worry about is the power supply and the power specifications for your bogies. There are really only two options. EITHER you take power from the rails OR you have on board batteries. There are pluses and minuses on both sides. Before you decide I would suggest that you try and work out some masses of the loco and the complete train. If you go for on board batteries then the best place for them is in the power cars at either end. You then have the problem of connecting right through the two ends... If you go for track power then you have pick up problems -which might not be that high given the number of potential wheels that are on the track! I am going to point you in the direction of the main motor supplier for the models that I build. http://www.mfacomodrills.com/motors/motors.html A G3 loco normally uses 360 to 385 rated motor per axle. I would stick to MOD 1 gears as this makes the maths easier and the coarser tooth makes it easier to keep clean. regards ralph

[IRB Souther Engineer]

Toy Maker

 

  
But I need to find a way to synchronize 8 electric motors, when 4 will be at one end, and the other 4 will be 25 feet away in a different car. What are the chances that 8 of the same electric motor are all going to be close enough in RPM to not have to synchronize them ?? 

 

 

I don't think you need to worry so much about that (if you use an R/C system). I think you need to worry about the Amperage that 8 motors pulling a pretty heavy load would draw...

 

If you did R/C one solution that immediately comes to my mind is add one receiver in one powered car and a second receiver in the other powered car, then add the two receivers as a consist (MU them) in your R/C system so they operate in sync. 

 

Take a look at this http://www.aristocraft.com/techinfo/revolution/REVOLUTION_TE_manual_Rev_A_0409.pdf (go to page 27). Even if you didn't use this exact R/C system you will get the idea of what I'm suggesting.

 

For motors you may want to look at something like this: http://www.nwsl.com/motors-power-drives/the-super-magic-carpet

[Toy Maker]

 

Right now, I am laying out the "engine" or end cars, whatever you want to call it. I am working up a 3D wire-frame drawing in AutoCAD, and will be sending it out to another guy that does amazing 3D model surfacing work in Solidworks.

I never got into surfacing, and this thing has a pretty complicated surface mesh.

Once he is done, I am going to be sending the 3D nose model off to a friend in California, who will be running me 3D machined aluminum billet noses for the train. Those will be fitted to the extrusion and welded together.

Once it's welded and sanded, the seam should be invisible. 

I got great news back from my source in China last night... They are going to waive their usual 2000lb minimum and go ahead and run the smaller quantity I was hoping for.

 Most of the really "hard parts" are getting ironed out, and it seems like this is going to be pretty do-able after all. I know I am going to be running into little obstacles all the time, but the really big issues

(body and nose) are working themselves out it looks like. 

Next will come the trucks, and powering them. So far, I really like what KMT did on the O-gauge version. I am planning on copying that design. But I need to find a way to synchronize 8 electric motors, when 4 will be at one end, and the other 4 will be 25 feet away in a different car. What are the chances that 8 of the same electric motor are all going to be close enough in RPM to not have to synchronize them ??  Anyone know of a small electric motor that you can manually adjust its RPM?? That might be a good way to go.

If you sync all 8 before putting them in, than they should all continue to run at the same speed. Maybe check them every so often. Put a small adjustable pot on each motor...  I dono.

Here's a link to a big verson of the same image http://www.radicalrouting.com/500/3Dmodel1.jpg 

 

[Toy Maker]

 If you have the profile, email me a copy, and I will send it off to the people I am having bid mine, and see what we can do. I have an amazing girl I use in China for allot of my custom items.

 It's not a cheap process no matter what. But if you can justify the up front costs via sales, it's well worth it. 

  My profile is probably going to run around $4,000-6,000 as a guess right now. But I will have enough material to make more than 1 set of cars in the end.

Allot of the price depends on the initial mill run you make. 500 pounds just about costs the same as 1000 pounds. They start off with a 1000 pound billet of metal, they want to run the whole thing. It seems they charge you per billet, whether you run it all or not.

[cabbage]

I did examine the possibility of getting a "Western" locomotive body extruded in aluminium -but non of the local (EU) suppliers were able to help. The major cost bug bear was getting the die ground to the right shape. I would be grateful for any leads that you could furnish. Most of the people we tried specialised in things like "heat sinks" and the sheer scale (!) of a G3 loco was beyond their capability to extrude. regards ralph

[Toy Maker]

 Does anyone have any good links to any Japanese "1" or G gauge sites where someone might be interested in a set ??

[Toy Maker]

UPDATE:

 

Well, I have the profile all worked out, and am in the process of getting quotes on extruding it out of aluminum.

 

[cabbage]

ENVY!!! My work shed is maybe 2m square!!! If you are going to use your track work outside then I would suggest that plastic is your best bet -followed by wood. Cedar and Oak are the best woods -try to find some very close grained and then have then preservative treated afterwards. The "Tanalith" or "Tanalise" process is a good one -it may be called something else in the US(?) I can make a yard of track in 2 hours -I don't think that you will be able to match that speed of output... But rest assured it it is going to be magnificent!!! regards ralph

[Toy Maker]

 I don't think that profile will be hard to make at all. They are about 3.5" long, x 5/16" tall x 7/16" wide. I could use wood, plastic or even aluminum bar stock, 4" x 3/8" and make it in a 12 foot long profile on one of my router tables, pretty easily, then just slice them off 7/16" wide on the table saw. I think the real PITA would be screwing all the rail clips down.
That mesh is easy too..  I have a great photo-etcher I use all the time. I can just draw that in AutoCAD, and send it off to them, and have it made in .020 brass or aluminum by the 18" x 24" sheet. Every one is the same looks like.

[cabbage]

I have to admit that I have never seen track work like the first photograph above(!) I presume the screens / grids are to prevent ballast being sucked up by the passing train(?) The only other source of track work that comes to mind is the "individulay" parts sold by PECO. I am familiar with the track work used by the Eurostar, TGV, ICE and Thalys Locomotives here in the EU. The Bullet train track is a "Vignoles" profile rail held on by screw down clips... Typical EU track work is either "Bullhead" in chairs on wooden sleepers or "Vignoles" held down with "Panderol" spring clips on concrete sleepers. All I can say at the moment is: "Eeerrrmmmm.... -Let me think about this?" The second shot shows a typical continuous concrete sleeper with "Vignoles" profile rail and chairs fitted with screw down clips. The third shot (with babe) shows a concrete sleeper with "Vignoles" rail and "Panderol" clips -but it is obviously not a high speed line.... If your model is going to be displayed at shows then you really have to go for the track work in Photo 1 -even to the point of custom milling your sleepers and using something like 12 BA nuts and bolts for the clips(!) Failing that a pot of paint and the Cliff Barker sleepers (smooth) can be made into concrete ones. You will need 200 "Vignoles" profile rail in any case. Ok having supped some tea!!! Tenmille might fit your bill (roughly) the rail would be AG212, the clips AG 178. The wooden sleepers could be profiled en masse with a home made router bit and painted to resemble concrete. The grid comes from K+S (Special) Sections. Tenmille are here: http://www.tenmille.com/Gauge1TrackAccessories.html Excuse me -I have to go to bed! regards ralph

[vsmith]

Toy Maker

Well I threw together a quick skeleton model of one of the cars out of 3/16 acrylic the other night. I was impressed with the size. It was allot bigger than I expected it to be.

So, if I use 1:32 for the train scale, and it runs on G track... what would you officially call this train ??  a 1:32-scale-G-gauge ??  Kind of a 1/2 breed ??

I'm going to have to cut custom wheels I think as well. The standard G-gauge wheel are way too tall, and would cut up into the body of the cars too much.

As you gain experience in large scale you will pick up the various scales that all use 45mm track

1/32 scale on 45mm track is called Gauge 1, and goes clear back to the 19th century. MTH makes large scale train in this scale. It is correct standard gauge represented on 45mm gauge track.

"G Gauge" is a generic term that tends to encompass everything under the large scale umbrella. Technically there is no G Gauge, it's all 45mm gauge. Where the designation does have application is in scale, where G scale is 1/22.5 or meter gauge European narrow gauge popularized by LGB.

Heres a quick blanket coverage of all the SCALES that run on 45mm GAUGE track

G scale = 1/22.5 representing meter gauge Euro narrow guage and is also close to US 1/24 3'-6" narrow gauge, but many mfrs built 3'-0" narrow gauge US models to 1/22.5 scale to be compatable with other 1/22.5 offerings.LGB was the biggest supplier, Bachmann, some USA and Aristocraft Classics line. See H scale below as well.

F scale = 1/20.3 scale, this is true scale 3'-0" US narrow gauge running on 45mm track, Bachmann and Accucraft being the biggest suppliers.

A scale = 1/29 scale representing standard gauge models but running on 45mm track, this is not a correct scale to gauge ratio, but the larger size trains look and sell better according to the mfr. Aristo and USA being the biggest suppliers.

Gauge 1 = 1/32 scale representing correct scale to gauge ratio for standard gauge trains on 45mm track. MTH, Accucraft being the biggest suppliers.

There is also H scale = 1/24 scale which is correct scale to gauge for 3'-6" narrow gauge. Kalamazoo, Delton, and HLW are the biggest source for this scale

Confusicated? Dont be, its a big pie and lots of flavors, you'll pick it up over time.

[Toy Maker]

Can't anything ever be easy ?!?!

I looked at his site, and (for photos anyway) I think I am going to have to make something custom.
I never looked that closely at the high speed tracks before...

I don't see anything like this on that guys site for sale :)

And here's a good way to keep the population down

[cabbage]

I have to say that Cliff Barker supplies the best track parts I have seen.... He supplies both Gauge '1' and Gauge '3' parts. http://www.cliffbarker.talktalk.net/gauge1products.html Keep on the good work!!! regards ralph

[Toy Maker]

Who's a good source for the right kind of track ??  I'd like a 3' or 4' piece just to have laying around for photos.

Thanks for all the help and feedback so far too !!!!

 James

[cabbage]

It is absolutely beautiful!!! The only thing I would suggest is that you photograph things against a "neutral background" to enable us to have a good look at what you are building. You also seem to have a piece of heavy duty track beside it. A model of this calibre is going to require some true scale track work for it to run on. I love it already!!! regards ralph

[Mt Beenak]

What you have is 1:32 scale standard gauge, also known as 'One Gauge'. It is the only truly accurate way to represent the real thing using 45mm track. Congratulations on your choice and on your early efforts.

[Toy Maker]

Ok, here is my little sample. 1:32-G "Wide Gauge"
Its about 4" tall 4.5" wide, and 31" long. 1/8 laser cut acrylic, with 1/8" aluminum rods to keep everything aligned. I am thinking about using .010 acetate to wrap the whole thing.
I see a few things I'd do different the 2nd time around, but as-is, it's really ridged already.
I'm seriously considering building the whole train this way. So far, what you see is about $10 worth of materials, and about 3 hours of work.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[cabbage]

It is what it is -a Gauge 1 Scale 1 model, and as such is perfectly respectable on any track. I would have expected you to have to source your own wheels as well. I have made my own custom wheels in two manners, by machining them from Bar stock and machining then from Flat plate. You are going to have to make them from std 100 series mild steel either way. Here is a loco that has perhaps the worst wheels to make -I should know I made them... As I stated above I would use the Gauge '3' Society profile wheel for your rolling stock as the G1MRA is a good wheel -but is not really designed for high speed work. The G1MRA wheel. http://www.gaugeone.org/Misc/STANDARD%20DIMENSIONS%20FOR%20GAUGE%20‘1’.pdf The Gauge '3' Society wheel. http://www.gauge3.org.uk/technical.html As I said -we are all here to help you with your insanity!!!! regards ralph

[Toy Maker]

Well I threw together a quick skeleton model of one of the cars out of 3/16 acrylic the other night. I was impressed with the size. It was allot bigger than I expected it to be.

So, if I use 1:32 for the train scale, and it runs on G track... what would you officially call this train ??  a 1:32-scale-G-gauge ??  Kind of a 1/2 breed ??

I'm going to have to cut custom wheels I think as well. The standard G-gauge wheel are way too tall, and would cut up into the body of the cars too much.

[Toy Maker]

Yeah, I talked to that YouTube guy a few times.
I thought about styrene... I will probably make a mock up out of styrene or acrylic, but I want something a little more beefy in the end.
One of my other hobby projects is a 13' long 1/14 RC tractor trailer. I really wanted to build a specific trailer, and scaled everything to the tractor. Here's a link to the actuators that drop the trailer
http://www.model-displays.com/Projects/truck1/LoadKing.htm

If I go with 1/32, each car will be about 31" long. Which in my opinion is big enough for now. I can always scale things up later if someone requests it.