I have been wanting a garden railroad for myself for a long time now, and I have finally got the space outside for it. Call me crazy, but the first thing I want to do is scratch-build a live-steam locomotive, with the aid of some books, like Building Small Steam Locomotives and Making Simple Steam Engines . I have a lot of questions, and I hope anyone can help.
Thank you for your time. In case you are wondering, other than what I have seen since Febuary 2008 (when I got my first Garden Railways magazine) I'm virtually clueless, so any help that can be offered is greatly appretiated. Also, the main reason as to why I want to jump in over my head by starting off with a scratch-built live steamer is because I have a budget of next-to-nothing ($60.00/month adv.), so I figure it would be more economical (and fun) to buy some books on building locomotives and trying my hand at scratch-building some live steamers, most likely backwoods chain-drive logging locomotives.
You might want to get a Mamod locomotive just to get your feet wet before making any attempt at making your own engine. Also you could fine an kitbashed loco somewhere and start there. Hope this helps. - Peter
Modeling the Bellefonte Central Railroad
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I am in live steam in a somewhat larger scale, but I'll chime in on a couple of points.
1. Yes, you can fire on charcoal, but... there is a reason most people don't. Charcoal is consumed very quickly compared to coal. I know in larger live steamers it can be a challenge to keep enough in the firebox, let alone the sparks that tend to set stuff on fire. Coal has more BTU's per pound, so you don't have to keep feeding the fire constantly. This may be nearly impossible on a G scale loco. However, it would be a cheap experiment since charcoal is pretty inexpensive.
2. Steam Cylinder Oil is a necessity to keep the engine from wearing out prematurely. Regular oil doesn't work nearly as well as steam oil for a couple of reasons. First, the steam oil is water soluble, whereas regular oil mixes with steam about as well as... well, you know... oil and water. Second, steam oil is meant to work with the elevated temps of steam. Search the live steam sites such as www.discoverlivesteam.com and you will find a supplier that will sell smaller quanities that will last you a long time.
I would second the opinion of buying a Mamod or Accucraft Ruby to get your feet wet before scratchbuilding. However, you might find a secondhand Mamod or Wilesco stationary engine cheap that you could use as a starting point for a backwoods chain or gear drive logging loco. I would also recommend finding someone locally that runs steam - no matter what scale or type - just to mentor you. You can pick up a lot just by spending a day around a steamer asking questions.
Best of luck, keep us informed on your progress!
- James
The Home of Articulated Ugliness
Thanks for the help. I would like to explain myself for the reasoning of why I think the information may (or may not) be followed.
JamesP1. Yes, you can fire on charcoal, but... there is a reason most people don't. Charcoal is consumed very quickly compared to coal. I know in larger live steamers it can be a challenge to keep enough in the firebox, let alone the sparks that tend to set stuff on fire. Coal has more BTU's per pound, so you don't have to keep feeding the fire constantly. This may be nearly impossible on a G scale loco. However, it would be a cheap experiment since charcoal is pretty inexpensive.
Well, I chose charcoal for the simple reason that it's cheep, and avalable anywhere Bar-B-Q supplies are sold. As mentioned before, I only have an income of about $60.00/month, so I always try to stay on the "Cheep" side of the tracks.
JamesP2. Steam Cylinder Oil is a necessity to keep the engine from wearing out prematurely. Regular oil doesn't work nearly as well as steam oil for a couple of reasons. First, the steam oil is water soluble, whereas regular oil mixes with steam about as well as... well, you know... oil and water. Second, steam oil is meant to work with the elevated temps of steam. Search the live steam sites such as www.discoverlivesteam.com and you will find a supplier that will sell smaller quanities that will last you a long time.
O.K. I will look into ordering some through my local hobby shop (Normally, they don't charge for shipping)
JamesPI would second the opinion of buying a Mamod or Accucraft Ruby to get your feet wet before scratchbuilding.
Again, I must report that money is a big issue. The only companies I have found are overseas (in England for the most part) and that means more for shipping, and the aggrivation of trying to convert British Pounds to U.S. Dollars (If I remember correctly, 1 British Pound = $2.50-4.50 USD)
JamesP However, you might find a secondhand Mamod or Wilesco stationary engine cheap that you could use as a starting point for a backwoods chain or gear drive logging loco.
That's very good to hear, as the part of Florida I live in has Yardsales-a-plenty and theres at least 5-6 machinery&tractor shows that have active vendors selling a little bit of everything, at every end and zone of the price ranges.
JamesPI would also recommend finding someone locally that runs steam - no matter what scale or type - just to mentor you. You can pick up a lot just by spending a day around a steamer asking questions.
I thought about that, as I think there's a live-steam group somewhere in Florida who specialises in very large scale trains and railroads (I saw them with 2 of their live steamers running, as well as some backwoods logging locos sitting on the sidelines. The 2 locos running were big behemoths, at least 7-feet long without the tender) Unfortunately, they didn't have any buisness cards and I didn't think to ask for information. Back to the Yellow Pages!
JamesPBest of luck, keep us informed on your progress!
Thanks, I'll try to let you know of the progress. Don't hold up though, as I doubt anything with my garden railroad projects will be getting off the ground anytime soon. Right now, the ground-breaking cerimony has yet to occur (I got trackage rights through my mom's garden, though) and I think I may resort to scratch-building everything so I can (hopefully) stay under budget (I have been eyeing the posibility of getting some live steamers RTR as to kit-bash them) Well, I have been throwing the idea around for a "Live Diesel" locomotive (model pending) that will use some gas engines (ranging from 2H.P. - 16 H.P.) and will give me an excuse to scratch-build a huge model of an EMD F-45.
I certainly understand being on a budget! One option you might consider, especially for a first engine, would be a propane or butane fired boiler. Those fuels are available virtually everywhere in small quanities and require less attention than a solid fuel like charcoal or coal when running. They are also cleaner and don't emit sparks like solid fuels. The little stationary steamers typically use special solid fuel tablets that can be difficult to find at times.
On www.discoverlivesteam.com, they have live steam clubs listings by state. Take a look and see if you can find one near you. Visit and ask questions, most live steamers are glad to share information.
Anyway, a train hobby is like eating an elephant, just do it a bite at a time. Try to make progress every week on the train or track - no matter how little that progress may be - and you will eventually achieve your goal. Persistence is important! If you run out of hobby money for the month, scavenge materials, or do site preparation for the track - once you own the shovel, digging is free!
Again, best of luck!
One more thing, you might check out online auctions for Mamod or Wilesco toy steam engines. There are a few of the Mamod steam traction engines on Evil-Bay right now. One has been sitting a while and isn't as pretty as the others - it has a starting bid of $45 with no takers. I realize that would blow the better part of the months budget, but it uses a steel spring as a belt that could be run over pulleys on the axles of a small "logging" locomotive. Believe it or not, here is a picture of a shay that had the boiler and engine replaced with a steam traction engine boiler and engine: http://www.gearedsteam.com/other/images/ford_mill_co_willam.jpg
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but you could use the Mamod engine as the starting point for a somewhat freelanced four wheel version. Use your imagination!
I'm looking at the listings for both Florida and Georgia right now, and, if that club is listed, they must have had a long way to travel. In North Florida (where I live) it's basically a hobby desart, as the only places for any hobby is two or three hobby shops, and they mainly carry HO, O, and N scales (their is one or two G scale cars on a shelf gathering dust, though).
Good news. I have sort of got a rough plan for my railway sketched out. I'm just going to have to scratch build a lot of track though. All the more reason to learn to weld.
With the propane or butane, I'm not too sure. the only tanks for a hundred miles are those 5-U.S. gal. tanks for Bar-B-Q grills, way too big (trust me, I've searched everywhere.)
Also, with the E-bay lead, there's no way it'll happen. Don't take me as ungreatful, I got too many "like new" things from there that just didn't work, and now reside in my scrap box (except for an O scale caboose, which was marked as an HO scale item. I sold that a long time ago)
One last question that I want answered before I think about live steam any further, If the locomotive de-rails, should I immidiately extenguish the fire and let the locomotive cool down, or should I be really careful and use a special tool to re-rail it with the fire still going?
I completely understand about buying secondhand stuff online. I also prefer to inspect items in person before I buy!
When I mentioned propane, I had in mind the 14 or 16 oz containers that they sell for small torches at hardware stores or Wal-Mart. The skinnier 14 oz size might fit in a boxcar. Just an option to consider, use whatever fuel works best for you.
As far as rerailing a hot locomotive, get a good pair of leather gloves - such as welding gloves, or even work gloves - and pick the loco up by the front and rear of the frame or cab to set it on the track. The frame and cab will be cooler than the boiler, and the gloves will help protect against an accidental burn. If you can make a tool to help, that is fine too. I bet you can rerail it faster than you could dump the fire if you are using charcoal for fuel. No need to put a fire out and cool the engine off just for a minor derail. If it rolls over, that might be a different story, but you would want to upright it quickly anyway. The only time I would worry about dumping a fire and letting it cool down is if it makes a hard detour off the track and winds up nosedown with no water showing in the glass. Most derailments shouldn't be a problem for you.
Hope this helps!
Thanks for the info on derailments. Even though I don't plan on having any place for it to happen, I'm sure my locomotive will find a way to take a swan dive, and have no water in the sight glass. I'll invest in a good pair of leather gloves.
I'll try to go to Wal-Mart soon to find the propane bottles. Funnything,though, is that the local Wal-Mart is suppose to be the seccond-largest in North America, but their stock of X-supplies that would be found at another Wal-Mart is no where to be found. There's still a chance for the bottles, though.
Another dumb question: I plan to have a river with a bridge to have the train (for photographic reasons) cross the river by an old mill. If the locomotive derails, would the boioler explode, or just put off a lot of steam? I saw a video a few days ago, where a steam locomotive went over a bridge and the boioler exploded (like what happens when you throw water on to a hot skillet.)
Thanks for being patent with me and my (possibly endless) questions.
It isn't very likely that a live steam loco taking a dip in the water would explode. It's not the best thing for a boiler, but shouldn't lead to a catastrophic failure. If it is a concern, you might think about a through truss type bridge where the train will be contained in case of a derailment. Even a trestle could have walkways or low sides along with the gaurdrails to help contain the train. Most boiler explosions are a result of a crown sheet failure due to a low water condition. Was the video you saw from a movie? Movies are notorious for having explosions that don't make sense, for instance, a car goes over a cliff and explodes before it hits the ground... that kind of thing. It would, however, make a lot of steam. The only real life example I can think of is a story of a track set up around a swimming pool (it was a nice level place) and the steamer derailed and went in the pool. No damage was done to the steamer. This story was from Model Railroader many years ago, it was one of the "Rocket" live steamers that used to be available. I can't remember the issue, although I do think it was in the "Bull Session" column.
Keep asking questions, it's one of the best ways to learn!
I'm glad about that. I don't remember the T.V. show, but I don't think the locomotive explosion was of "Hollywood Trickery" with explosives. I figured, if it could happen in real life, with a full size locomotive, then what's there saying a scaled-down version couldn't happen.
While on the topic of boioler explosions, if one should unlikely happen, what would happen(besides the obvious loss of a locomotive)? Also, if a locomotive does explode, will any shrapnel (eather kicked-up or from the loco itself) be cause for alarm? In simpler terms, if it does explode, can anything become a deadly, unguided missle?
Well, I want to be careful with this subject. Model live steam locomotives, operated with proper care, are very safe with an extremely good safety record and very, very slim chance of explosion, especially a single fire tube boiler like many G scale locos use. Having said that, an explosion of any pressure vessel is dangerous. Water expands about 1600 times when it flashes into steam. A quart of water in a small ruptured boiler would expand to 400 gallons of steam instantly. Depending on how it fails, the boiler will probably travel some distance, just like the real ones, and yes, loose parts will fly. However, this shouldn't make us have an unrealistic fear of steam locomotives. Rather, it is a reason to have a healthy respect for their care and operation. It should spur us on to learn as much about sound boiler design and construction techniques as possible. We should strive to operate as carefully and attentively as possible. Our hobby has a great safety record and those of us who participate in it have an obligation to help keep it that way.
Now, I know that this isn't a cheap book, and the subject matter is a little more in depth than most G scale live steamers will need, but I would recommend "So You Want to Build a Live Steam Locomotive" by Joseph Foster Nelson. It covers all aspects of live steam locomotive construction, including boilers. It is a great primer and resource for anyone who would like to build a live steamer.
Keep researching, reading and asking questions! Learn all you can, you will be a fine "Live Steamer."
That has put my mind at ease. Thanks James
As for that book, "So, you want to build a live steam locomotive", that is accually the book I was planning (and still planning) to get. I also plan to get another book "Making Simple Model Steam engines" too. Unfortunately, on Amazon.com, the total will be about $60.00, so it'll blow my budget.
I have been able to get some extra money here and there by working for my mom, and selling some of the eggs my chickens lay. I don't think that'll get me huge quantities of anything that'll buy (or build) the farm, but I can at least get some detail parts for my smaller indoor HO scale railroad (I like both scales equally) and I can get started on a detailing project.
Or, I could get the parts that I need for those engines I mewntioned awhile back, so I can try my idea for "Live Diesel" locomotives. Mabe I'll place the 2-stroke engines into some ALCOs
I'll try to keep you updated on how it's progressing.
I'll look forward to your updates! I'm going to have to buy the books that Ralph recommended, too. Perhaps you can set aside part of your budget for books every month, saving up until you can order one book at a time. The information is worth many, many more times than the price of the books!
Best of luck,
James
Edit - Hey Ralph, thanks for the book suggestions. I have "Model Boilers and Boilermaking" and "Building Small Steam Locomotives" on order... can't wait to get them!
I know about having refrence books on hand. I have a few hobbies that require them too (indoor model railroading, acale modelbuilding, etc.), and I try to get books (eather how-to or refrence) as often as I can. There's one in particular thet I will remember for a long time, as the book has an interesting story too. Here it goes:
About 2 years ago, my family rented a cabin in Dillard, Georgia ( a very small town, garunteed that a GPS will say you are getting close to Nowhere) and stayed for the week. I remember that there was a small railway museum that looked to be in an old depot, across old Highway 441 from a private school. Being the train nut I am, it sparked my curiosity, and my bugging ability. We tried to go the next day (Tuesday) and we found out that the museum was only open on the weekend.
My dad promised me that we would go there just before we left. During that week, we traveled here-and-there, to the Tallulah Gorge state park, to Tallulah lake, to the old overlook on old 441. On that day, we went through this small neighborhood further down 441, and I found a railfan's delight: An old Tell-tale (in original condition, rust and scaps of rope and all) and about 100 feet further down, an old wood sided caboose turned museum! My family can tell you, the van bottomed out while going 0 MPH on a flat road when I saw those two gems. I never knew that a railroad was ever in the regon. We stopped in at the caboose-museum (Luckily, it was open) and I started reading the papers behind glass, which told the story of a railroad I had never heard of, the Tallulah Falls RR, which was a short line that ran in the Tri-state area where Tennissee, North Carolina, and Georgia came together. I was (and still am) immidiately hooked.
When we went into town, we stopped for dinner at the Dillard House (a really nice hotel that just screams Southern Hospitality) and went into the gift shop. I was thrilled to find a book on the "new found" (by me, at least,) railroad. It turns out, that the TF was the only way in or out of the regon, had starred in the movie The Gtreat Locomotive Chase (1955 Walt Disney) and was famous for having 42 tressles in 58 miles (their slogan was "A trestle a mile") Now, I'm hooked, looking for any reason whatso ever to go back into the mountains now (Any old mountain range won't do now, It has to be the Southern Appalations) so I can find out more about the railroad, and hopefully photograph the original buildings, and mabe find the still identifiable roadbed. Yes, I did go to that museum, which, as it turned out, is owned by the school's engineering department, has an operating 2-foot gague steam train, and an even more larger wealth of information.
I whish to go into further detail, but I don't want to tell what has already been published. Unfortunately, the publishing company doesn't have a website, and all orders must be sent by check through the mail, unless you want to take a trip for yourself
There's more reasons to go into the mountains, if you can't get your wife to come for a "Train trip." There's plenty of scenery to be enjoied, antique shops are plentiful, and it is very relaxing to go off into the state parks. If your lucky, you may even be there when they open the flood gates to Tallulah Gorge, which, I hear, is a real treat.
I'm back with another (what I see as somewhat doumb) question:
I know that steam-oil is needed for the locomotive, but I have been wondering, Can it be possible to lubricate the cylinders to the locomotives before firing-up the locomotive?
I doubt this would work, but it doesn't hurt to ask.
P.S. I'm also going to be setting up another thred for "live diesel" locomotives, to get input as to weather it could be done or not. Don't worry, I still plan to build some live steam locomotives. It's just that the gas engines I have are calling to do something else other than sit on the garage floor.
Ralph is right, the steam tends to clean the oil film out of the cylinders as the engine is running, so the oil really needs to be supplied continuously while the locomotive is operating either by a displacement or mechanical lubricator. If you oil the cylinders at the start of the run, they would be dry and wearing out prematurely after just a little bit of running.
By the way, the two books I ordered - "Model Boilers and Boilermaking" and "Building Small Steam Locomotives" - arrived this week. Both are very good books, I highly recommend them!
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