Oh, oh. Watch out 1:29 guys (news item)

[Curmudgeon]

News flash-

Kader Industries (owner of Bachmann) has just been given clearance to purchase Sanda Kan (make Aristo and USA stuff, among others).

[Rene Schweitzer]

• This is true. See the news release: http://www.trains.com/grw/default.aspx?c=a&id=1214 

[DMUinCT]

WOW, 1/29th??   Sanda Kan also makes LIONEL and K-Line in "O" gauge.

 

[Curmudgeon]

I know.

That's why I said "among others".

The Ames Super Socket is coming to a locomotive near you, eh?

[Karl Reichenbach]

Dave,

I do not post very often but I read most of the forums each day.  I totally respect your knowledge and ability and have had many of my questions anwsered by you over the years.  For that I thank you.

Why do you post this on all of the different forums?  It appears to me that it is for the purpose of making controversity between members.  It has certainly worked on several of the other forums, but not so much here.

I realize that you have had problems with the Bachman management and that may be the issue you are wishing to promote.

Over the years I have seen you use the word troll many times if someone does not agree with you.  It appears to me that in this instance that you are the troll that is trying to create controversity.  You seem to get it started and then disapear.

These are my observations.

Karl Reichenbach

[Curmudgeon]

Absoulutely not.

This showed up in my inbox, FROM Kalmbach.

Since it is of absolutely no consequence to Bachmann, rather a salvation for other manufacturers who may have had a problem if this had NOT happened.

Obviously, you don't really have a clue as to what is happening, and your post reflects such.

As this information was coming out, a very interesting item showed up from some fairly respected in the hobby:

 "This is good news.  If this had failed it would have made LGB going out of business look like small potatoes."

The point of your post is what, to attempt to discredit the information?

The source?

Well, can't discredit the source.

Since it didn't originate with me.

Can't discredit the information, since it also did not originate with me.

Maybe someday you will understand news is news.

Didn't "work" here?

Really?

First thing that happened was the link was provided direct to the press release BY Kalmbach.

 

Still trying to figure out the reason for you post.

 

[Great Western]

 I have a degree of sympathy for Karl's comments.  The reason I say this is mainly due to the Title of the thread "Oh.Oh. Watch out 1:29 guys".

It does have a "sensational" connotation to it which, if it was intended as such, sure was guaranteed to arouse passions in some quarters.  Justification for the comments on this Forum is the Kalmbach communique.  If that is the same as the one on the GR Home Page then only Lionel (not sure about Bachmann China) is the only 1:29 manufacturer mentioned.  Yes I know that other 1:29 manufacturers are involved. and were alluded to, but more non 1:29 names were mentioned than were so why single out 1:29 without some explanation? 

In the present worldwide economic crisis we should be pleased that a major manufacturing part of our hobby is still afloat.  Maybe some of it won't continue as it presently does, but the hobby certainly would not have benefited from another situation where  major parts of it became unobtainable.   It is worth remembering that we in Europe have seen this all before on more than one occasion. 

 

[Curmudgeon]

USA trains....Aristo.....

 

"Aristo-Craft, Athearn, Atlas, Hornby, Life-Like, Lionel, Marklin, USA Trains, Walthers and more."

So, the 1:29 manufacturing factory has been sold.

New owners.

Maybe, just maybe, the sudden 20% increase after the first of the year is just co-incindence?

http://www.mylargescale.com/Community/Forums/tabid/56/forumid/4/postid/61422/view/topic/tpage/3/Default.aspx

Trust me.

I often know far more about a specific thing than I ever will post about.

[EMPIRE II LINE]

A most hardy, YES, I would also agree with Karl and Alan......

To that end, I will also add, you are a true trouble maker and starter of controversey, you never take the time to investigate the whole truth to a matter, and you love to start controversey and than just walk away, Like a virus in a computer....

Byron F. Custer

[Curmudgeon]

EMPIRE II LINE

A most hardy, YES, I would also agree with Karl and Alan......

To that end, I will also add, you are a true trouble maker and starter of controversey, you never take the time to investigate the whole truth to a matter, and you love to start controversey and than just walk away, Like a virus in a computer....

Byron F. Custer

Well, once again, cluelessness prevails!

Now, stop and think.

I know that's hard, but just try it.

If the thread had been titled "Kader buys Sanda Kan", would you have even read it?

The thread title did it's job.

Admirably so.

And just because it has generated lots of response on other forums and not so much on this forum, doesn not have as much to do with the subject matter as with those responding.

You can now return to non-thinking status.

[udo]

Curmudgeon

Admirably so.

I thought you were a chief? ;)

[Curmudgeon]

Except when I'm an Admiral.

[kstrong]

A few quick points...

1) The "Ames Super Socket," as Dave calls it (otherwise known as the "Non-proprietary plug-and-play electronics socket"), already exists in nearly identical form in almost every Aristo-Craft locomotive they produce. In that regard, postulating that such a socket would soon be "coming to a locomotive near you" as a result of this merger/acquisition simply isn't true. The movement was already afoot. Whether other manufacturers opt to sign on is still entirely up to them.

Sanda Kan is strictly a contract manufacturing facility. As such, there's no expectation that they would--or even could--dictate what goes into the locomotives they produce in terms of major components. Their engineers can suggest--and may even tweak--designs based on their experience, but they cannot simply impose another client's standards at the expense of the first client's design. If those standards are proprietary to any one manufacturer, there are serious legal issues at play. (Search MTH v. Lionel)

2) For those interested, here's a link to the Aristo-Craft forum, in which Lewis Polk asserts his very favorable opinion of the deal: http://www.aristocraft.com/vbulletinforums/showthread.php?t=8472 Lewis has been in the hobby business for decades, long before he started doing trains. I know him to be a very shrewd businessman. If something was rotten in Denmark (or China), I'd fully expect him to pull up the tent and move elsewhere.

Later,

K

[Anonymous]

TOC,

You missed telling them the 20% to 50% mark up by Jan 1 2009 by different train people.

Toad

 

[dwbeckett]

Curmudgeon

Except when I'm an Admiral.

SO your SIGNATURE says check your profile to see what you do I DID, IT'S BLANK, SO What is it you do??

Dave 

[Curmudgeon]

Kevin-

Since the ORIGINAL socket, which often has the motor outputs inverted from the Ames copy, already comes in the AC units, then, obviously, we weren't talking about AC, were we?

However, just to throw something out.....

You know when Williams was acquired by Bachmann it's now Williams by Bachmann?

That's all.

Just remember that.

[kstrong]

Dave, you miss my point. Sanda Kan is not in a position to dictate that client X use the same standards as another company owned by their parent company, Kader. Let's put this in automotive terms (and assume GM still owned Delco). Ford goes to Delco with a product then want produced. Delco is not going to tell Ford that they have to use a Chevy-designed system instead. They want Ford's contract (read "money"), and they're going to do it Ford's way. GM's not going to care who's writing the checks or what the standards are, so long as the checks are being written and products selling so that there are more checks coming.

The other half of that equation is that Bachmann and Aristo-Craft's engineers have been in discussions about how to modify future generations of the socket--in whatever form--so that they are indeed universal. Where those discussions are now, I don't know. I'm only on the committee that's reviewing the standards. No one actually tells me anything. There has been no brow-beating or anything of that nature to get other manufacturers to climb on board. It's purely a voluntary effort on their part.

As for Bachmann buying Williams, that's apples and oranges to this scenario. Williams was a product line, like Ford, Chevy, etc. Bachmann bought it, lock, stock, and barrel, just as Marklin bought LGB. It's a tangible, on-the-shelf asset that can be branded whatever its owner feels necessary for marketing purposes. Sanda Kan, on the other hand is for all intents and purposes a factory. It's real estate, people, and machines. It would be more akin to Ford buying a production plant.

Later,

K

[lownote]

I have to agree with Kevin here--Sanda Kan is a production facility. I suppose Kader could start telling Aristo what do do, but why?  What would be the point? Aristo could simply move to another facility. It would have some difficulties, but I stil can't see why I should be upset about this

[Curmudgeon]

Please, yes, put it in automotive terms!
OH YES!

 

Jaguar.

Bought by Ford.

You got Jags with Ford motors, transmissions and drivetrains!

Oh, Lordy, Kevin, don't you know better than to use automotive similarities?

 

Who said anything about Aristo?

Kevin.

I said an Ames Super Socket coming to a locomotive near you?

Funny what folks jump onto.

Who told you to be upset?

Really?

Big names in the industry think this is great.

The fact that one company holds what, 95% or more of YOUR model railroading manufacturing resource is a WONDERFUL thing, to be strongly desired.

Just so long as you remember it isn't over with yet.

 

[Marty Cozad]

Kevin

You know TOC just wants to get folks going. He's a retarted admiral from the Navy.

 

I mean retired...

[lownote]

 Ok, but Kander didn't buy Aristocraft, or USAT, or Accucraft or AML--as far as I know, they didnt buy any of the other makers of 1:29 stuff. They bought the factory at which those things are made.

It's not the same as Ford and Jaguar.

I suppose if the factory had a big stock, say, Ames Super sockets!-they could tell aristo craft to use them. But aren't the sockets for different scales different sizes? I actually have no idea

I still don't understand why I'm suppsed to watch out. If you have further knowledge, just spill it instead of hinting

 

[Curmudgeon]

Boy, you folks are something else.

I publish a news release, you try to say I have stated Kader bought Aristo, which I did not, bring in automotive similarities, that I did not, bring in AC and the Ames Super Socket, which I did not mention together.

Rumour-mongers!

This has got to be one of the funniest series of responses I've seen!

Keep it up!

DB Cooper

[Anonymous]

Women and children to the life rafts!

 

[dwbeckett]

ToadFrog&WhiteLightn

Women and children to the life rafts!

 

The all knowing Toad Has spoken.........

Pop's

[lownote]

Curmudgeon

Please, yes, put it in automotive terms!
OH YES!

 

Jaguar.

Bought by Ford.

You got Jags with Ford motors, transmissions and drivetrains!

Oh, Lordy, Kevin, don't you know better than to use automotive similarities?

 

 

 You're the one who compared it to Bachmann buying Williams, and then Ford and Jag. 

Don't be so coy. If you know more than  you're saying, just ^&#@!  say it!

 

 

[Curmudgeon]

THIS is what I said:

"You know when Williams was acquired by Bachmann it's now Williams by Bachmann?"

No where did I ever say, infer, mean, even spell out anything but that QUESTION.

What is not for publication does not get published.

Period.

And the Ford/Jag bit is in response to Kevin's bring in automotive comparisons.

Not mentioned previously.

Keep speculating!

Fire in the hole!

[kstrong]

...Oh, Lordy, Kevin, don't you know better than to use automotive similarities?

That was deliberate. Ford buying Jag is like Bachmann buying Williams. You'd expect to see some crossover and blending of technology because they're two similar product lines. A more accurate comparison would be Ford buying Delco--a car manufacturer buying an independent OEM factory operation.

 

...Who said anything about Aristo? ... ... Really?

A post is much more than just the words, it's context. It's the same environment that's in play when critiquing the media--something near and dear to my heart, like cars are to Dave's. Individual stories produced by the various news outlets may be fair and balanced. However, when taken as a whole with the anchor's lead-ins, teases, headlines, etc., the stories get colored one way or the other. Dave's use of the phrase "...watch out..." in the headline is as deliberate as the words he chose for the body of his message. It implies a negative cast to the news contained within. The text of the post contains no corroborating evidince to support the headline, but it does its job--setting the reader up to view it from a pre-determined position--one of aprehension.

 

Dave's very good about carefully crafting his words so they stand fast absent context. It's a talent. He's very good about using one-liners in response to arguments, then defending them by saying they're just simple statements, nothing more. It's very common in political advertising, because "context" is hard to quantify based solely on words. Consider the ads that asked "who's responsible for high gas prices?". (If you didn't see them, please make some room under that rock for me next time 'round.) It's a question that was not--and could not be--factually answered. However, when posing that question while a photo of a particular candidate was shown on the screen, it implied that said candidate was in fact responsible. Yet, the groups running the ad can legally claim they didn't say that a particular candidate was responsible,so they're off the hook. (Dave, have you considered hiring yourself out to some 527s next election year?)

 

...Big names in the industry think this is great.

A fact which is notably absent from Dave's original post, and runs contrary to the specific tone set by the headline. If such facts are known by the author when the headline is written, then the headline is arguably misleading.   

 

...The fact that one company holds what, 95% or more of YOUR model railroading manufacturing resource is a WONDERFUL thing, to be strongly desired.

Well, time will tell. If Kader keeps the operations independent--as seems to be the indication from those involved--then it can be a good thing. If, on the other hand, Kader decides to flex its muscle (though logically it makes no sense), they're not the only plastics manufacturer in China. As I've stated on other fora, the global economy is such that other fully capable OEM plants in the far east would delight in having new clients to help them through these times. Heck, OEM plants in the US right now would be happy for the business, and might even be competitive. There may be a slight delay in getting production shifted over, but let's face it--we're no strangers to production delays in this hobby.

 

Later,

 

K

[Curmudgeon]

"...Big names in the industry think this is great.

 

A fact which is notably absent from Dave's original post, and runs contrary to the specific tone set by the headline. If such facts are known by the author when the headline is written, then the headline is arguably misleading."

 Not quite. Those facts were not in evidence when this was initially published.

Funny what information a thread like this shakes out of the woodwork.

If you look at the postings carefully by date, and time, you can almost see where the new information has come into the funnel.

Oh, and I didn't used to be this good at one-liners.

Once we had the defense of the Super-Socket, I learned fast......by copying, initially.

 Oh, and I was really hoping you'd continue on the automotive thread.

I ahve LOTS more!

Next:

Jeep.

Bought by AMC, ended up with Rambler engines.......

[kstrong]

"...A fact which is notably absent from Dave's original post, and runs contrary to the specific tone set by the headline. If such facts are known by the author when the headline is written, then the headline is arguably misleading."

Not quite. Those facts were not in evidence when this was initially published.

Which is precisely why I included the word "if" in that sentence. I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but also taking into account that you did claim to know more than what you publish, which could be anything. We can discount the headline being misleading, but it is still decidedly cautionary in tone. If one were to yell "watch out!" at one of your operating sessions, I don't think your first reaction would be to look for the guy handing out money. (If he does show up, please give him directions to my place.)

As for continuing the automotive thread, perhaps later. I'm sure at some point in the not-so-distant future, we'll find a parallel for the Edsel.

Later,

K

[EMPIRE II LINE]

Curmudgeon

 Oh, and I was really hoping you'd continue on the automotive thread.

I ahve LOTS more!

Next:

Jeep.

Bought by AMC, ended up with Rambler engines.......

 

Yes you are really good DAVEY......

How'bout when Caddy's had Olds and Chevy motors put in them, some got new cars and lots'a money.....

What'ed you get so far........NADA.....

While I started reading Kevin's second to last comment I thought....... DAVEY should'a run for President....

He'd a probably WON.....BUTTTT, Kevin handled it alright. Yeah, YOU'RE really good DAVEY...

and the more YOU "say" the more we "ALL" learn about what you REALLY DO !!!!!!!!!! 

NOW you know------ POP'S-----D. W.

Byron F. Custer