NG for Narrow Gauge ...

[hoofe116]

 

Okay. I now have another piece of the puzzle. (And I wrote it down) Let's see if I have it right:

O gauge track is 1.25" or 32mm. There are different scales associated with that gauge, just like with G.

I laid a piece of O inside a piece of G (45mm) and lo, it looked pretty good. Tilted, because of the ties, but you get the drift. Just enough narrower to look nice.

I am going to do G ga @ 1.20.3 scale. Which will make it American NG. I also want to do the O ga NG line in the same scale. Call me a fan of 'KISS'. (Not the band).

I do not like HO. Call it a mental defect. I like O, conversely. Thus, O ga is the choice for NG for my already NG RR. (My NG feeds a standard ga--not shown, but I think everyone probably gets that right away.) Note the levels of transfer being built in.

All track will be hand-made & laid, practically speaking.

Other than not achieving the tight radii available in HO, where am I going wrong, if I am?

Thanx,

Les W

[Mr_Ash]

so... if your doing both in the same scale is the G track 3' NG and the O track 2' NG? IDK im lost

[GearDrivenSteam]

1:20.3 is already narrow gauge. It's Fn3. There is no such animal as 1:20.3 standard gauge.

[cabbage]

Hoofe,

You are doing nothing wrong! I am glad that you are finally beginning to start your railway -in exactly the manner that you want it. You will be delighted to know that in the UK your system of Gauge 1 and Gauge 0 is fairly common as is your choice of scale -which we would call 15mm scale.

This is normally used for building IRISH and MANX railways with their "3 feet Passengers" and "2 feet industrial" gauges.

You would be looking at 3 feet radius curves for Gauge 1 and 2 feet 6 inch radius curves for Gauge 0.

regards

ralph

Post Scritpumn: It has just occured to me that being an American you will not get the pun about "3 Feet Passengers"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man

[altterrain]

1:20.3 is already narrow gauge. It's Fn3. There is no such animal as 1:20.3 standard gauge.

Sorry Robert. You're a bit mistaken. There are a few guys out there modeling F scale standard guage - http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/Products.html

 -Brian 

[altterrain]

 

Okay. I now have another piece of the puzzle. (And I wrote it down) Let's see if I have it right:

O gauge track is 1.25" or 32mm. There are different scales associated with that gauge, just like with G.

I laid a piece of O inside a piece of G (45mm) and lo, it looked pretty good. Tilted, because of the ties, but you get the drift. Just enough narrower to look nice.

I am going to do G ga @ 1.20.3 scale. Which will make it American NG. I also want to do the O ga NG line in the same scale. Call me a fan of 'KISS'. (Not the band).

I do not like HO. Call it a mental defect. I like O, conversely. Thus, O ga is the choice for NG for my already NG RR. (My NG feeds a standard ga--not shown, but I think everyone probably gets that right away.) Note the levels of transfer being built in.

All track will be hand-made & laid, practically speaking.

Other than not achieving the tight radii available in HO, where am I going wrong, if I am?

Thanx,

Les W

1:20.3 is F scale whether its standard gauge or Fn3 ng on 45 mm track

1:22.5 is G scale, meter narrow gauge on 45 mm track

Gn30 is G scale 30 inch ng on O scale, 32 mm track

Gn15 is G scale 15 inch ng on HO scale 16 mm track

On30 is O scale 30 inch ng  on HO scale 16 mm track

1:13.7 is 7/8's scale. 7/8n2 (2 foot ng) on 45 mm track and 7/8n18 (18 inch ng) on 32 mm track

-Brian 

[Mr_Ash]

1:20.3 is already narrow gauge. It's Fn3. There is no such animal as 1:20.3 standard gauge.

Sorry Robert. You're a bit mistaken. There are a few guys out there modeling F scale standard guage - http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/Products.html

 -Brian 

Mmmm dual gauge!

I knew I saw some of that stuff before!

http://www.frolin.net/cwrr/index.html 

[Tommy0218]

 

Okay. I now have another piece of the puzzle. (And I wrote it down) Let's see if I have it right:

O gauge track is 1.25" or 32mm. There are different scales associated with that gauge, just like with G.

I laid a piece of O inside a piece of G (45mm) and lo, it looked pretty good. Tilted, because of the ties, but you get the drift. Just enough narrower to look nice.

I am going to do G ga @ 1.20.3 scale. Which will make it American NG. I also want to do the O ga NG line in the same scale. Call me a fan of 'KISS'. (Not the band).

I do not like HO. Call it a mental defect. I like O, conversely. Thus, O ga is the choice for NG for my already NG RR. (My NG feeds a standard ga--not shown, but I think everyone probably gets that right away.) Note the levels of transfer being built in.

All track will be hand-made & laid, practically speaking.

Other than not achieving the tight radii available in HO, where am I going wrong, if I am?

Thanx,

Les W

Good Morning Les,

Most G scale runs on 45 mm track, which is the universal track in circulation today. There was another forum that I posted on in which we ran standard gauge in 1.20.3 scale. Standard gauge will run larger than 45 mm, you are looking at closer to 73 or possibly 74 mm instead. Hence the larger scale.

The problem in 1.20.3 standard gauge is the cost of producing a engine and then comes the track. I don't know of any one company that will manufacture track designed to accept a engine of this size. Our track was handlaid using code 250 brass. Welcome to the wonderful world of handlaying

Another thing I wanted to mention is the cost of producing a standard gauge engine in 1.20.3 scale. There was one member from my old club in Florida who commissioned a company to build a triplex (2-8-8-8-2) in this scale at a cost of over $6,000 (tender included). I am not trying to steer you away from this by any means however, just keep the cost factor in mind.

[GearDrivenSteam]

You are correct sir. Sorry for the bad info.

[cabbage]

Well my approach to the narrow gauge / std gauge problem -was to ignore it! I model in 16mm scale and if I was to produce a std gauge system I would need to go to Gauge 4... I have cheated and gone to Gauge 3, which is nearly a commercial scale -but is still very much a modellers scale. The track can be bought commercially in self assembly form (ie slide the plastic sleepers onto the rails). However mine is all hand made from oak sleepers and white metal chairs -it uses code 200 rail.

Some people have complained that I should either be running a gauge of 57mm for Cape Gauge -but to be honest could they even tell!!!

regards

ralph

[GearDrivenSteam]

I kinda ignore all the rules, myself. As I've said ALL along....if it looks good USE IT. I rarely ever get the ruler out unless I just want to make a building or structure a certain scale height. Like with my little scratch built critter, I just laid down the ruler and said "ok this is 20 scale feet by 8 scale feet....."   It works for me. I'm even gonna use an Aristo Craft Lil Critter on my layout and the layout is supposedly narrow gauge. The Lil Critter is supposed to represent standard gauge....but what the hell?

[hoofe116]

Hoofe,

You are doing nothing wrong! I am glad that you are finally beginning to start your railway -in exactly the manner that you want it. You will be delighted to know that in the UK your system of Gauge 1 and Gauge 0 is fairly common as is your choice of scale -which we would call 15mm scale.

This is normally used for building IRISH and MANX railways with their "3 feet Passengers" and "2 feet industrial" gauges.

You would be looking at 3 feet radius curves for Gauge 1 and 2 feet 6 inch radius curves for Gauge 0.

regards

ralph

Post Scritpumn: It has just occured to me that being an American you will not get the pun about "3 Feet Passengers"... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_Man

Ralph,

Thanks for the words of encouragement. I see, upon re-reading my post, that I failed in writing clearly enough to explain what I meant.

First, I'm going with 1:20.3 in 45mm ga. This has been represented to me to be roughly equivalent to American Narrow Gauge and will comprise the 'stem' of my RR. Now, this line is serves as a feeder to a an American standard gauge RR, which I will not model, save for possibly a siding, or a pair of them. Doubtful, now that I've focussed on that issue in my own mind, because to do that I'd have to have a wider gauge, namely, 4' 8-1/2". Or, model several cars/engines in ... I think 1:22--isn't that considered 'standard size' for a 45mm track? I'm foggy on that, and have no intention of doing it in any case.

Now, to look in the other direction on my RR: It will be 1:20.3, on 45mm track. It will serve a mine and a logging site for sure, plus whatever else I can cram into my limited space indoors. These two sites--the mine and the mill--will be in 32mm (0 gauge, modelled at 1:20.3 scale also). This will give me either 1) two interchange points for transfer of cargo, or 2) dual gauge trackage, my real intent and desire.

The problem, as I initially stated it, was to start the reader in the middle and ask him to look both directions, concerning gauge. To restate more clearly, the two yet-to-be-named sites, mining & logging, will be in 32mm gauge. They will feed the Pig River RR (45 mm NG) which will feed the real (though long extinct) St. Louis and Cape Girardeau RR, which was absorbed early on by the Missouri Pacific. I think, in the real world, the term for the PR RR is a 'terminal RR'--if I use dual-gauge trackage. As a fan of switching and trackside operations, either way I win: two sites of transfer of cargo with no dual-gauge, or a single point transfer with dual gauge. The PR freights will then go away, around a hill and into what I believe is called a 'cassette'. I call it a box with track inside and the far end blocked to prevent 'spillage' so to speak. These cassettes will be exchanged, fulls for empties, reversed, and lo, a different PR engine will return from the 'interchange' with needed freight plus empties. Or, more likely, consists of empties and another of freight. All my consists will be short. I like it like that. 3-5 cars plus caboose.

Regrettably, your congratulations, though welcome, on actually beginning are somewhat premature, as I haven't yet cleared the area for the benchwork--though I am gaining, if only incrementally. And one more hardware fact is now nailed down.

It may be I'll find I have to go to Gn15. (HO gauge) due to constraints of space vs what I envision. But first, I'm going to give 32mm a go. By using only 0-4-0T's perhaps I can squeeze a bit tighter radii. Since I'll be handlaying all track anyway, save for some plastic 45mm, I don't foresee a problem other than perfecting technique, i.e. learning what the heck I'm doing.

A last thought: Should all go as envisioned, there just might be a small space somewhere for what's called an 'estate RR' or, Gn15 trackage. I've been eyeballing that micro-layout site, and those folks are doing some truly grand things in a very small space.

And, thanks to all the rest who contributed your thoughts.

Les W.

[hoofe116]

1:20.3 is already narrow gauge. It's Fn3. There is no such animal as 1:20.3 standard gauge.

Sorry Robert. You're a bit mistaken. There are a few guys out there modeling F scale standard guage - http://www.cumberlandmodelengineering.com/Products.html

 -Brian 

Mmmm dual gauge!

I knew I saw some of that stuff before!

http://www.frolin.net/cwrr/index.html 

Brian: you've hit it on the nose. Dual gauge trackage. Already I'm contemplating those dual stub switches, and how interesting it'll be to build 'em.

Les

[hoofe116]

1:20.3 is already narrow gauge. It's Fn3. There is no such animal as 1:20.3 standard gauge.

Yes, I wrote that post rather badly. Comes from not knowing exactly what I'm talking about.

Les

[hoofe116]

Brian

Thanks for the list of scales vs gauges. This time I got it saved!

BTW, that pic of the F scale engine ... that thing's huge! But hopefully it's a large engine. I really need to sit down and do some cardstock mockups; I've glued sheets of thick tag paper together to see how they'd work, as material. (Not impressed). Tried some of wife's throw-away matboard. (Very impressed).

As a retired machinist, I'm actually most familiar with metal, its working properties, etc. Mocking up in brass seems an extravagant way to proceed....

Les

[scottychaos]

Les,

I think you have this all figured out! but let me add a bit more to the mix..

Based on what you said you want to do, you will model in only one scale, with 2 different gauges.

1/20.3 scale, F-scale, everything will be the same scale..1/20.3

45mm track will be 3-foot gauge, Fn3 scale track and rolling stock.

32mm track will be 2-foot gauge, Fn2 scale track and rolling stock. (Actually 25.6" gauge if you want to be really picky..but just call it 2-foot gauge..its easier)

figures, structures, automobiles, etc, will simply be "F-scale"..since they dont have a gauge. 

thats it! simple really.. 

One scale, 2 gauges..3-foot and 2-foot gauge..no standard gauge.

Scot 

[hoofe116]

Tommy

I'm a bit hazy on terminology. If you read the reply I posted to Cabbage, it might make better sense. What I was trying to define without going into detail was the difference in physical size between American Narrow gauge and American Standard gauge, both using 45mm ga track. The scales change rather than the gauge, and that's as far as I'm able to comment.

I recognize I should know what scale equals American NG, or at least, is accepted by the majority. I don't. All I know is there's a lot of scales out there covering up 45mm gauge track. Perhaps there is no 'single' narrow gauge scale.

I settled on 1:20.3 scale for one salient reason: at my age, I need big because big is the easiest to machine parts for, and I want to scratchbuild everything possible. Mostly to save money, put also, partly to keep my hand in, so to speak.

I just bought one of those Smilin' Fong Cannon and Lathe Factory mini lathes, a 7 x10". It's a little cutie. (Contrast that with the 8' btc LeBlonde with 24" sob and you might smile, too. Took two men, or one and a chainfall, to mount a chuck on that baby.) Got the SF on closeout.

Thanks for taking time to share your thoughts.

Les W

[hoofe116]

Les,

I think you have this all figured out! but let me add a bit more to the mix..

Based on what you said you want to do, you will model in only one scale, with 2 different gauges.

1/20.3 scale, F-scale, everything will be the same scale..1/20.3

45mm track will be 3-foot gauge, Fn3 scale track and rolling stock.

32mm track will be 2-foot gauge, Fn2 scale track and rolling stock. (Actually 25.6" gauge if you want to be really picky..but just call it 2-foot gauge..its easier)

figures, structures, automobiles, etc, will simply be "F-scale"..since they dont have a gauge. 

thats it! simple really.. 

One scale, 2 gauges..3-foot and 2-foot gauge..no standard gauge.

Scot 

Scotty:

Yes. You've managed to convey exactly what I meant to. I lack the correct terminology. I've copied your post into my file of 'RR stuff'.

And in far fewer words you've hit on why I did it that way (mostly--I harbor some mild aversion to HO scale) because it's simpler. "2 gauges, 1 Scale." Uh-huh.

Of course, if there's a little room left over, an 'estate Railway' as the Brits say, or an industrial site, might find a home....

Thanks very much for the input.

Les W.

"Inside an old man's body is a young man ... wondering what the hell happened."

[cabbage]

Hoofe,

The congratulations are not pre-mature!!! The actual statement: "This is what I am going to build"; is for me the pivotal part of it. I have yet to even pound my first "metpost" into the ground to hold my track, but after 18 months of surveying and garden work I am at the place where I can see what it might look like -in another 18 months!!

The IRISH and MANX railways have 3 feet gauges for Narrow gauge work and the IRISH gauge is 5 feet 3 inches for Mainline work. This makes the modellers of 15mm scale use 0, 1 and 4 Gauge track.

regards

ralph

[Tommy0218]

Then again if you get tired of narrow or standard gauge, you could always model in broad gauge. This was rail spaced at approximately 7 ft apart. (used in England until around 1892)

Hoofe, BTW - it looks like you deleted part of your post as when you previously mentioned doing standard gauge in 1.20 scale is missing or has been removed.

Anyway, have fun with the cannon !! 

[GearDrivenSteam]

1:20.3 is already narrow gauge. It's Fn3. There is no such animal as 1:20.3 standard gauge.

Yes, I wrote that post rather badly. Comes from not knowing exactly what I'm talking about. Les

Well, don't sweat it dude. Looks like we all learned sumthin here. I thought 1:20.3 was narrow gauge only. But I learned that was wrong. LOL

[DavidGSmith]

Yes there is a 1to 20.3 standard gauge available "F" but not common. Sorry I cant locate the manufacturerer But I have seen it at the NMRA national convention train shows. neat but not for me. I have Fn3 in the garden and On30 in the basement.  Hand laying the track  looks awesome but I personaly dont like to do it, the turnouts never come out good for me. There is company selling jigs for turnouts but they are costly. They are by all reports very good.

Dave 

[GearDrivenSteam]

Yes there is a 1to 20.3 standard gauge available "F" but not common. Sorry I cant locate the manufacturerer But I have seen it at the NMRA national convention train shows. neat but not for me. I have Fn3 in the garden and On30 in the basement.  Hand laying the track  looks awesome but I personaly dont like to do it, the turnouts never come out good for me. There is company selling jigs for turnouts but they are costly. They are by all reports very good.Dave 

Funny you mention the On30. I have an On30 layout in my spare room that I'm getting ready to tear out and replace it with a small large scale layout.

[Anonymous]

I am going to do G ga @ 1.20.3 scale. Which will make it American NG. I also want to do the O ga NG line in the same scale. Call me a fan of 'KISS'. (Not the band).

Les W

Had to Les....I know bad toad....

Toad

[hoofe116]

Hoofe,

The congratulations are not pre-mature!!! The actual statement: "This is what I am going to build"; is for me the pivotal part of it. I have yet to even pound my first "metpost" into the ground to hold my track, but after 18 months of surveying and garden work I am at the place where I can see what it might look like -in another 18 months!!

Well, that's cheering to hear, I figured I was the only 'paper modeller' around. (Although you are building models, while I'm fitting odd pieces together with my leftover energy.) BUT, I'm making copious notes--all of which I lost when my computer got replaced by a new one--and coming to some decisions on the direction I want to take. Initially. I'm no 'down-to-the-last-spike' planner, far from that. Good ideas get changed by better ones as the object under construction takes form. Also, 'reality bites'.

The IRISH and MANX railways have 3 feet gauges for Narrow gauge work and the IRISH gauge is 5 feet 3 inches for Mainline work. This makes the modellers of 15mm scale use 0, 1 and 4 Gauge track.

I feel a bit of explanation is necessary for the 'American Standard and Narrow Gauges' nonsense: I'd just been nosing around on an English site and my mind got stuck on differentiating between Us'ns and Them. Also, I was tired, it was past bedtime--2000 hrs when I can--more time to read. Had I used 'mainline', it might've come off more clearly.

But, I must've gotten most of it across despite my best efforts, judging from the several kind posts that amplified here and there. Or should that be 'clarified'?

Do you happen to know the most common scale Gn15 is built to? When I consider the proposition, putting a 1:20.3 scale critter on itsy bitsy HO track seems to be asking for problems. Like tipovers.

Still, thank you for the kind words.

Les

regards

ralph

[hoofe116]

I am going to do G ga @ 1.20.3 scale. Which will make it American NG. I also want to do the O ga NG line in the same scale. Call me a fan of 'KISS'. (Not the band).

Les W

Had to Les....I know bad toad....

Toadster, you are e-vile, man, e-vile.  That pic is a poster for the 2nd Amendment, to my way of thinking.

How're you doing? Obviously, you're feeling better enough to be annoying. Heh. Sweets said you'd hurt your back. I really hope not. I can put your on our church's prayer list if you want.

This evening I spent on a really neat site that had old logging pictures. I took a notion to look up steam shovels, from the MOW thread, and found it by accident. Some very cool stuff.

Les

Toad

[hoofe116]

1:20.3 is already narrow gauge. It's Fn3. There is no such animal as 1:20.3 standard gauge.

Yes, I wrote that post rather badly. Comes from not knowing exactly what I'm talking about. Les

Well, don't sweat it dude. Looks like we all learned sumthin here. I thought 1:20.3 was narrow gauge only. But I learned that was wrong. LOL

There is so much overlapping and confusion on scales--at least in my mind--that early on, I decided on the biggest I knew of that'd work on 45mm track. Turned out to be 1:20.3 and that's what I'm staying with.

I usually can write more lucidly, howsumever. And as for faithful replication of sizes, I am not gonna. I spent too darn many years building to very precise specs from drawings, and I'll be D*--er, doggoned if I do it in my old age.

Les W.

[Anonymous]

I would accept the offer but will stick with my Native American roots. Last prayer list dad past on. It's ok thou

[hoofe116]

Yes there is a 1to 20.3 standard gauge available "F" but not common. Sorry I cant locate the manufacturerer But I have seen it at the NMRA national convention train shows. neat but not for me. I have Fn3 in the garden and On30 in the basement.  Hand laying the track  looks awesome but I personaly dont like to do it, the turnouts never come out good for me. There is company selling jigs for turnouts but they are costly. They are by all reports very good.

Dave 

I'm using strap-iron rail and stub switches, which simplify things a bit. Just now I've taken another look at 'kick switches' for the logging/mining sites--On32--memory's flaking right now--what I'd posted on. I understand they were used in industrial settings and mines but that's all I know. When I can finally start building during the mornings, when my strength is up and my mind's clear, I'll know because I'll build a bit of pre-prod items, so to speak.

As a retired tool & die maker, and before that an XP machinist, I don't foresee problems in that area. My problems are figuring out how to work with unfamiliar materials, picking up tried 'n true processess, etc. And I don't know how outre I can get with my No Known Prototype ideas. And I don't know a whole lot about RR in 1:1. Been buying books 'n reading. And reading. And surfing the web to a froth.

Thanks for taking time to post your thoughts.

Les W.

[hoofe116]

Then again if you get tired of narrow or standard gauge, you could always model in broad gauge. This was rail spaced at approximately 7 ft apart. (used in England until around 1892)

Hoofe, BTW - it looks like you deleted part of your post as when you previously mentioned doing standard gauge in 1.20 scale is missing or has been removed.

Anyway, have fun with the cannon !! 

Tom:

I wish all that post had gotten deleted! My RR is inside in a relatively small space (still to be finalized). No broad gauge, thank you.

The term 'Smiling Fong's Cannon & Lathe Factory' comes from an old joke at work: Whatever the Chinese build, it's cannons first, along with whatever. (I was part of the Military/Industrial complex). In other words, there's a factory that turns out Bachmann's stuff. It would be called 'Smilin' Fong's Cannon and RR train factory'. The joke loses a lot when explained, I admit.

No cannon. I have two, anyway. A 1" bore swivel gun and a fantastic little 10-bore made from scrap steel with vintage cast iron caster wheels. When the wife let me, I used to fire one in the backyard on New Years. One year I made up a pyrotechnic charge, intended to go off about 30 feet up. It went off just over my head where I was holding the cannon pointed up. Wife was berating me while slapping out fires on my coat and beard, the kids and grandkid were running around the yard stomping out burning embers, a great time was had by all. Wife got to beat me up under the pretext of saving my life; kids, grandkid got to see a rare mis-cue by the Old Master; I didn't see the actual flash, the rest, back inside the garage doorway, said it was awesome. All I saw was the whole backyard light up. Kinda like a multi-colored flashbulb. With sound. Ooh, lotsa sound.

Now, I'm too old for that kinda excitement.

Les W.

"After victory, tighten your helmet straps." Admiral Togo, ca 1910