Garden RR ....Model trains??

[jerryl]

  Our local division of the NMRA has sponsored a garden RR open house the first Sat. in June for many years. This year they decided that garden railroads  shouldn't be considered model trains & wouldn't sponsor the event.The participants held the open house anyway. (the local division didn't ever really get invilved) Just as many peopls showed up & some new RRs were added.

  What do you think, Should garden RRs have any connection with the NMRA?   or are they just toys.   Jerry

[tangerine-jack]

They are every bit "models" as any smaller scale is.  I've seen lots of toy HO trains, so why should the NMRA care about HO?  Or N for that matter?  Real trains run outdoors, toy trains are played with in basements and spare rooms, so to me anything smaller than G is truly a toy and not in anyway a "model".

Sounds to me like that local chapter needs to get their heads out of the sand and have an educated and unbiased look around.  This is exactly why I don't belong to the NMRA or any other club.

[altterrain]

This seems like a really bad decision on their part especially since GR had an article about Jack Verducci becoming a NMRA master modeler (one of only 400 or so, if I remember correctly). I guess you need to to have a layout in the basement with mountains made out of paper mache covered in foam to get any respect. Garden railroading is far more challenging than anything I did in my HO daze.

-Brian 

[Great Western]

There are many aspects and shades of modelling in the vaious scales/gauges.

  A great many large scalers have, or once had, smaller scales and have, therefore, a great amount of experience about the  many facets required in modelling and running trains.

When all is said and done whatever the scale, competence, or ambitions of railroad modellers it is only a hobby that we are dealing with -  nothing so near as "matters of life and death". 

The narrow horizons, often portrayed by some "modelling experts", do the model railroading hobby (all scales) no good at all.  It can, quite often, be counter-productive and turn people away from the hobby instead of encouraging them. 

[Anonymous]

Well,  guess if they don't WANT you, then you got 3 choices; One- just say "t'ell wid 'em!" and go your own way, Two- Edumacate the eletists (which may be equivalent to beating your head against a cement wall) or Three- work within the group to vote the people who made the decision out and get some who have a little more sense elected to positions of power.

[Anonymous]

This seems like a really bad decision on their part especially since GR had an article about Jack Verducci becoming a NMRA master modeler (one of only 400 or so, if I remember correctly). I guess you need to to have a layout in the basement with mountains made out of paper mache covered in foam to get any respect. Garden railroading is far more challenging than anything I did in my HO daze.

-Brian 

Brian, thoughts are with you and what you ECHO! You should shove this statement and the article under there (where the sun don't shine) and walk away.

Been to much stuff - talk about NMRA coming in but seems they or us (Who ever?) to convert to there way. Bad blood, moods, etc....even if I had lower gauge RRs (HO) still would make it my own, you would have to play with my trains - RULES I break them!

POed Toad

[stanames]

  Our local division of the NMRA has sponsored a garden RR open house the first Sat. in June for many years. This year they decided that garden railroads  shouldn't be considered model trains & wouldn't sponsor the event.The participants held the open house anyway. (the local division didn't ever really get invilved) Just as many peopls showed up & some new RRs were added.

  What do you think, Should garden RRs have any connection with the NMRA?   or are they just toys.   Jerry

Jerry  

This is sad and your division needs a kick in the pants.

As a former board member of the NMRA and a very active garden model railroader the reaction of your local division is not typical of divisions in the NMRA.

For whats its worth the current Vice President of the NMRA is into 1:20.3 and at least one of the 9 board members is active in 1:29.

 Alas the NMRA as a volunteer organization is full of great people and also has some jerks in it as well. 

Lets have some fun on this one.  Send me the division name and where you are located as well as any other pertinent information such as the division officers should you know them and lets have some good honest fun at their expense.

 Stan Ames

tttrains.com/largescale

PS  Last weekend we hosted a visit by our divisions Module Group at the SJRP garden railroad.  Great fun by all.

[Didrik]

Jerryl,

Could you provide me with more information on the NMRA Division you are discussing. I would like to talk to them.

Didrik Voss

Manager, S&C Dept.

NMRA

[kstrong]

...and lets have some good honest fun at their expense.

Respectfully, I would suggest that "having fun at their expense" is probably not the best course of action. As Stan mentioned, the VP of the NMRA is very much into large scale railroading, and has made definite overtures in terms of wanting to bridge the gap that exists between the NMRA and the large scale community. The attitude expressed by this particular local group is not in keeping with the NMRA's goals in this capacity, and they have expressed interest in clearing this matter up.

Sadly, the attitudes displayed by this particular local group are not unique, and they have a decades-long history in some circles--despite plenty of examples to counter the "toy train" argument within those circles. I would venture to guess that it's going to take a bit more than just top-down directives to erase this misconception. It's also going to take some attitude adjustment on "our" behalf to quell the "us vs. them" mentality. I'm not advocating joining or not joining the NMRA. Like any group--join only if you get something out of it personally. But there's no reason the two camps have to be mutually exclusive, and fostering an attitude that promotes that exclusivity does no one any good.

Later,

K

(I see Mr. Voss added his comments while I was composing mine. He's one of the top brass within the NMRA who is very much interested in erasing these misconceptions.)

[jerryl]

  I really don't want to get something started with the local division as we had a very successful open house without thier "endorsement" ,just wanted to find out if this was typical of other divisions.   Just another reason I won't join.  I,myself model in 20.3-1 & HO . I consider both of them "scale" model RRs.   Jerry

[Ray Dunakin]

Does "garden railroad" = "model railroad"? First of all, I think it depends on how one defines a "model railroad". I personally would define a model railroad as one where the individual has made an effort to replicate (model) all important aspects of a railroad in miniature, including not only the track and trains but also the environment, structures, and appearance (weathering, etc.). Others my define it differently.

Whether or not a "garden railroad" fits this depends on the individual, and what they are trying to achieve.

A "garden railroad" certainly CAN be a model railroad that just happens to be outdoors. On the other hand, there are a lot of folks who basically just have a "toy train" in a garden. And there are a lot who fall somewhere in the middle. Mind you, I'm NOT making any value judgements here! If shiny plastic trains of indeterminate scale running through beds of flowers makes you happy, go for it! I've seen all kinds of garden railroads and I have thoroughly enjoyed them all.

It should be noted that the indoor railroad haobby shares these same distinctions. You have some folks who are happy as clams with trains running around on bare plywood; some who have full-blown, intricately detailed miniature empires; and many fall somewhere in the middle.

But in outdoor railroading, it does seem that the "trains in the garden" variety outnumber the "model railroad outdoors" variety. I believe there are several reasons for this.

One large reason is the difficulty of modeling in an outdoor environment where everything is exposed to the elements. Even here in sunny San Diego, the sun, weather and wildlife can be very hard on models. I can only imagine how difficult it must be in harsher climates. Most traditional modeling materials and techniques are useless for outdoor modeling. And unlike indoor models, modeling outdoors requires constant maintenance and, often, even total replacement of the model. So most people either think that realistic modeling can't be done outdoors, or isn't worth the effort.

Another issue is the fact that most garden railroads must share yard space. Unlike an indoor model railroad, one usually can't partition a garden railroad from the surrounding environment. Building a detailed empire in a spare room is one thing. Building it in the yard is something else altogether. The railroad may be subjected to kids, pets, and clumsy adults.

Aesthetics also comes into play. Not many people want to tear out their lawn and garden and replace it with miniature mountains and villages -- and those who do, may get vetoed by a spouse. So the railroad has to coexist with these non-scale elements.

Anyway, those are my thoughts on the subject. Take them for what they're worth -- I believe two cents is the going rate. :)

[Shiner Fred]

Jerryl:

 I'm sorry to hear of the bad experience had by the garden model railroaders in your NMRA division.

 I'm not an NMRA "top brass".  Just a member who also happens to be Director of MY local division.  I assure you:  the attitude you have experienced within your division is NOT the general rule throughout the NMRA.  Far from it!

I have "eclectic" tastes in model railroading.  I model, or have modeled, in N, HO, HOn3, O-tinplate, On30, and large scale (in it's several variants).  I and most of my compatriots . . . including many who are feromodelistas in Mexico . . . consider "garden railroading" as much part of the "model railroading" community as any other niches of specialty, gauge, scale, prototype, or era.

Allow me to wax philosophic for a moment . . . its a genetic handicap that I have learned to live with!  Any kind of "modeling", in both the professional and leisure worlds, represents some sort of a compromise with 1:1-scale reality.  In a model, the important aspects of what's being modeled are retained, while the unimportant aspects are minimized or ignored all together.   The "devil is in the details", so to speak:  what's "important", what's not. 

In the professional world, whether you're modeling aircraft performance, weather patterns, economic variations, war gaming, mathematical interactions, etc. etc., it is critical to identify the "important" details and get them right if you model is going to be of any use. 

But in the world of leisure, the objective of a "hobby" is pleasure and relaxation.  The choice of what's "important" to one, and what is "not", is a very personal choice.  But in the hobby of "model railroading", the choices and combinations available are almost infinite, and no one collection of them can be considered "right".  Each scale, gauge, prototype, era, and venue represents some sort of choices among the options available.

So:  it doesn't matter whether or not you have a very detailed N-scale N-track module, a 4X8 HO layout, a circle of 3-rail Lionel on the carpet, a temporary G-gauge layout set-up in the local botanical garden, a 40' X 100' massive club layout, or a 7 1/2" gauge live-steam ride-on railroad on 60 acres: all of the locomotives and rolling stock are "models":  smaller scale representations of the real thing with the unimportant details (in someone's opinion) omitted.  They all run on rails using flanged wheels.  They all exist for the purpose of bringing pleasure to those who participate in using them.  And all of them are part of the great hobby of "model railroading".  Even "Thomas the Tank Engine" and friends fall into this category.

Well, I don't think I'm much different than the majority of NMRA members who are inclusive enough to welcome all of these variants into their ranks.  And, if you wonder WHY it's worth being a member of the NMRA, then two recent examples are instructive. 

First example:  in the absence of efforts by other model railroading affectionado organizations, the NMRA has historically managed, with some success, to establish a set of agreed-upon standards and recommended practices to facilitate the interchange of locomotives, rolling stock, trackage components, electrical control systems, clearances, and other critical infrastructure elements . . . for each scale/gauge combination.  Including the various scales and gauges comprising "garden railroading".  They aren't perfect . . . nothing is . . . but for many years they have helped manufacturers develop and market products that model railroaders can mix and match on their layouts with a reasonable degree of confidence that they will work together. 

This effort continues.  Recently, the relatively-new magazine, "Model Railroad News", decided to use NMRA standards and recommended practices as a basis for evaluating new product offerings in various scales.  They have asked the NMRA to work with them in developing test and evaluation procedures to verify the degree to which products meet existing standards.  This effort, among others, will help ensure that, in the future, we can purchase new products and know ahead of time whether or not, and how well, those products will work with our existing leisure-time dollar investments.

 Second example:  the technology of DCC sound is growing rapidly, as a number of manufacturers are developing and marketing new innovative products.  Recently, a company claimed a patent on a key aspect of DCC sound technology;  the holders of the patent rights sought to force other DCC sound manufacturers to pay "royalties" for use of "their" technology.  If successful, this would have raised the price of existing DCC sound systems and stifled innovation of new developments.  The NMRA led a legal patent challenge to the U.S. Patent Office, claiming that aspects of this technology had in fact been developed and published prior to the date claimed by the patent.  To date, the holder of the patent has failed to dispute the NMRA's challenge;  there is a good likelyhood that the patent will be revoked.

In any organiztion, there is always a fraction that tries to spoil the fun.  (I'm sorry you had one of those fortunately rare interacations).  The above two examples, however, show why the NMRA, in balance, is an organization that works to promote our common enjoyment of our great hobby, and is worthy of our support . . . and our membership.

Once again, Jerryl:  if by chance you should move to or come to visit Division 6, Lone Star Region, NMRA -- where the garden railroad division of my club operates it's outdoor garden railroad layouts year-round -- you will be greeted as a fellow model railroader.  And, if you are an NMRA member, I will be happy to welcome you to our Division.  And, if you are NOT an NMRA member, I will be happy to do what I can to help you get acquainted anyway.  As a Division Director, I see a large part of my "job" is "service to the hobby" in my area, and not just to the NMRA members who live there.

Best wishes to you and all of your fellow garden model railroaders!

"Shiner" Fred Bock, MMR#361

 

 

[kstrong]

I received this response from Mike Brestel, president of the NMRA. He asked that it be posted here:

Jerry and everyone,

Stan Ames just forwarded me the thread about a division refusing to sponsor a garden railroad open house. I was very surprised and discouraged to read it. Please accept my person apology for what happened, and my assurance that this kind of behavior has become a rare thing in the NMRA.

As someone who has built layouts in 1:24 (45mm gauge), O, S, HO, and N, and who has flirted with models and modeling in other scales, as well as with Class 1, traction, narrow gauge, and logging over the years, it is just inconceivable to me that there are still people out there with hang-ups about scale, gauge, prototypes, and eras. They’re all trains, they all run on flanged rails, and most of us love ‘em all.

In my 15 years of experience at the national level of the the NMRA, I can honestly say that I have not met a single soul who was on a mission to trash a particular sub-group of what is a large and inclusive hobby. That’s why this whole thing just doesn’t make sense to me. As I consider what the problem might have been in this particular division, I wonder if the exclusion might have revolved around an incomplete understanding of how the NMRA insurance works, or something like that. Or maybe there was some other misunderstanding or a personality conflict.

So that I can fully understand just what transpired and why, I would appreciate it if you would send me as complete an account as you can of the background of this incident. If you can send me individuals’ names, the names of the division and region, the names and telephone numbers of the officers, etc., I would be grateful. Then I can follow up on this to discover exactly what happened and why. Please send this information to me at [e-mail].

When I first got involved in the hobby back in the early 1960s, there were a lot of people who seemed to get their jollies by excluding others from various model railroad activities. To an impressionable 14-year-old, it seemed like the O scalers looked down on the HOers, the HOers looked down on the N scalers when that came along, the guys building in brass looked down on the guys working in wood, plastic was suspect, the steam guys didn’t like diesels, the O scalers were blacksmiths, and everyone looked down on the tinplaters. I realize that some of the needling was just in fun, but some wasn’t, and it got ugly at times.

Fortunately, those days are long gone most places you look, and literally everyone I know and work with at the national, divisional, and regional levels wants to do everything possible to see that we all get along, that we all are equipped to appreciate the work that others do, and that the overall hobby of model railroading continues to thrive and grow in the future.

Model railroads – we love ‘em all!

Mike Brestel
President
National Model Railroad Association
[e-mail]

[Gary Raymond]

Relevant to this discussion; I'd like to know what everyone's thoughts are on the difference between models and toys.

[vsmith]

Relevant to this discussion; I'd like to know what everyone's thoughts are on the difference between models and toys.

Model:

Accucraft 1/32 Flying Scotsman

 

Toy:

Well you get it

 

Pretty clear definitions to me what constitutes a Model vs a Toy. Its not just cost, because even low priced trains can be very well detailed,  it involves a beleivable level of detail and realism, operational reliability so on and so on.

I wonder if this local NMRA chapter would also have excluded all of O Guage as "toys" and note worthy of sponsership? Even Lionels top of line stuff has a certain "toy" like quality to them.

 

 

[Curmudgeon]

Relevant to this discussion:

You don't know, Gary?

Now that throws a whole new wrench on the works (or sabots in the gears).

 

[altterrain]

If you play with them, then they're toys. If they sit on a shelf collecting dust because you're too afraid to handle them for all the delicate parts falling off, then they're models.

-Brian

[GearDrivenSteam]

There are toy or model trains in any scale. Even 1:1. I think for the garden boys to be left out of anything is very close minded. I've been a member of many model railroad forums online, and I gotta say, the large scale fellers (and gals) and especially this particular site are some of the nicest people and best modelers I've seen. It's even rubbed of on me, because now I'd rather scratch or bash something instead of buy it.

[John Busby]

Hi jerryl

Now lets see what do I have HMMM???

I have some toy trains and some very nice model coaches and cane trucks with a model loco on order to Haul the models.

I also have a couple of real?? locomotives (Live Steam)

So I think garden railways can be broken into three types Model railway, Toy railway & Real railway.

All of which have there pro's & cons

After reading NMRA'S definition of "G" scale I think it needs a few Garden railway men to educate them that "G" isn't a scale or if it is it can only be 1/22.5 and nothing else and that all the other garden scales need there own designation.

They even left 16mm scale off the list

The general thought seems to be that "G" means garden and I am inclined to agree with them.

I would sugest that since AMRA has a garden special interest group, that over your side of the world pond NMRA should have a garden special interest group.

There are a number of differences between traditional Model railways and Garden railways, that I don't think Railway modelers understand, and they are not going to or realise that some practitioners are very acomplished model makers if they are not exposed to them and garden sized trains.

Thats my worth

regards John Busby

 

[cabbage]

Well I am ashamed to admit it -but I too have been the victim of "what other people think"... I used to belong to the local Garden Railway Association but I kept noticing the comments that were being passed about the models that I had built that were running on the tracks and finally -I simply had enough. As I stated on my e-mail to the Chairman of the committee;

"Several members have made it quite clear that nether I or my models are welcome on your tracks -being deaf means that I can lip read a long way...." And I didn't re-new my membership.

Later on there was the request by the committe of the 16mmngm to demonstrate how to assemble kits on a "newcomers stand" -so as I would have been there anyway I volentered to put in an hours' "show time". I sent off my e-mail and arranged a time for me to telephone him. I have a special Toshiba Bone Conduction telephone at home and at work -I actually hate the things but I have to admit they are useful. Again I got the; "we are not sure that your models are really suitable -they are a little off the wall you know!" (I could see him stroking his "Lady Anne" fitfully!) after some time I said "GoodBye B@@@n!" and hung up the phone and I so disgusted I did not go to the 16mmngm show and yes -I did not re-new my membership either.

I am currently building my second layout -this time I am going to build it as it would have been made and run in the 1920's. Brass rails in white metal chairs on wood sleepers on plank and post... It is damned hard work -but I feel that I am closer to enjoying the true feeling of what it must have been like for the early experimenters. YES my models are not common prototypes, (Oh look another Lady Anne), all of them were however real and built for running. It is also a functional railway, in that it has a work shop, a CME and a work crew (of 1 and half). It just happens to live in a back garden.

regards

ralph