NYC "S" Motor a Gauge 3 Locomotive

[cabbage]

I have never put a build log on this forum -so it is possibly high time that I did... The loco that I am going to detail how I build is a New York Central Railroad "S" Motor. This locomotive is detailed in Henry Greenlys book "Electric Locomotives and Railways". But, the major problem with this is the fact that the book is from 1928, I have basically had to completely redraught all the drawings, re-examine all the constructional techniques, (especially technologies) -that went into the design for the original model.

This locomotive existed in two configurations the original one was a 1-D0-1 -however this was found to be unstable at high (for 1900's) speed and the design was altered for 2-D0-2 (after the crash...)

It is isn the 2-D0-2 form that I have drawn up my plans and ideas for construction with(!)

Anyone who knows me knows that my basic technique is to build a plywood chassis or former and then to plate it with ABS sheet. The same will apply here. This is raw plywood former:



The body is 45cm long and 14cm at it's widest (13.5mm scale) and is 5 layer birch ply (5mm thick). Yes, I could stand on it -but rather too strong than it breaking!!!

Here is an internal shot of the former. The battery compartments can be seen at each end and the compartments labelled A and B. The four 4mm set screws in the centre section will hold the chassis frame for the power axles, (there are of course four of them), which will be powered by two 25Watt motors. In the end compartments you can see the set screws which hold the Adams Bogie for each end of the loco.



The next shot is rather blurry -but is the best of three attempts... The Adams Bogie mounting can be seen here. It pivots on a central axis, there are two lateral springs to centre it and two springs at 45 deg to vertical and horizontal to aid "steering".



This is how an Adams Bogie works... When the loco enters the curve the force on the front axle causes the bogie to pivot on its cental axis. The next thing that happens is that the inclined spring on the outer side of the curve is relaxed thus making the other spring (on the inner side) more tense. The net result is that the bogie moves towards the direction of the inner curve and physically moves across the loco. The more the loco corners the more the bogie moves to the direction of the inner curve. Thus the bogie acts as if the centre of rotation of the bogie moves towards the centre of the loco.

Needless to say this can be calculated from the length of the fixed wheelbase and the total length of wheel base and the tightest curve the bogie is destined to corner at. No, I am not going to go through the maths here(!)

regards

ralph

[altterrain]

Neat project, Ralph. It's a bit on the ugly side but has interesting qualities -

 

 

The banking motion of the trucks sounds like a rather elegant mechanical solution to what the Acela uses hydraulics to accomplish. What was considered high speed for the day? Was the banking motion required because these beasts were top heavy?

-Brian 

[altterrain]

I came across a rather comprehensive article on the S-motor "Old Maude" locomotives -

http://alfredbarten.com/oldmaude0.html

They look rather nice pulling heavyweights in passenger service.

-Brian 

[cabbage]

The loco does not actually "bank", the bogie simply moves across the frame at a rate proportional to the rate of cornering. The original problem with the loco was that it had a very low centre of gravity, (due to the BiPolar motor drive), and when it cornered at high speed, (over 70mph), the single front axle spread the gauge of the track causing a derailment. Wether this would have happened with european style track in chairs is debatable, but there was more than some suspicion of the track spiking sheering at the crash site.

As you say -it is ugly. But it does have its redeeming qualities. I have already ordered the name plates for it -and yes they do say "MAUDE"...

regards

ralph

[S&G Rute of the Silver River]

Its allright about looks cause they lasted untill the 70's before being retired, something like 70-75 years may evrything we buy last that well. (never gona happon, but we can wish right?)

[Benjamin Maggi]

I work mostly in styrene, so watching a construction of an engine made of wood looks pretty interesting. And, I don't think the engine is that ugly. Each engine has its charms.

[cabbage]

Well Sunday afternoon has finished -and so have I for the time being! The front and rear lids for the battery compartments have been fabricated from MDF and strengthened with 5mm sq pine strip. 1mm ABS sheeting forms most of the exterior shell and I have drilled the fronts to take the pins -so that the lids pivot outwards.



The windows have been punched out by a combination of "chain drilling" and a craft knife. The holes then squared up with a grit block and some sandpaper. The roof shape has been roughed out by placing a saucepan lid over some balsa and cutting around it. The exact shape of the roof is formed by having a 30cm hack saw DELICATELY drawn across the balsa ribs until it touches the ply ends, thus giving a series of slots which can be joined up with a craft knife and then smoothed over with sandpaper.

The roof itself will be made from two 1mm thick sheets of balsa, laminated onto the ribs with "Croyd Aero" cement. The final layer of the roof will be 0.5mm thick ABS sheet held on with epoxy glue thinned down with meths to a brushable consistency.

regards

ralph

[vsmith]

Neat project, Ralph. It's a bit on the ugly side but has interesting qualities -

 

 

The banking motion of the trucks sounds like a rather elegant mechanical solution to what the Acela uses hydraulics to accomplish. What was considered high speed for the day? Was the banking motion required because these beasts were top heavy?

-Brian 

Ugly? its hideous!

...and its one my build list!

Yes it was considered fast (70 mph) for its day and very revolutionary. The early versions has a single lead wheel which put too much stress on the rails leading to derailements, the later versions had a double bogie like your side view. I plan to build a single wheel version.

Ralph were did you get your plans from?

[cabbage]

Vic, -read the first paragraph of the build diary....



If you care to check your mail you might find something of interest -but please do not publish it elsewhere. I looked at the original version (pre-1907) and decided on the later version as being more stable. It will have to corner at what are, (for Gauge 3), very tight radii. I have all the calculations for the original version -I used the von Borres formulae to calculate the lengths of the axle offset and pivot lengths. If you give me the MINIMUM radius that the loco will have to take then I can simply drop this into the spreadsheet and give you the dimensions in MILLIMETRES

regards

ralph

[altterrain]

Ralph,

I saw this on eBay and was wondering if there has been any progress on your project -

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300213566102

 -Brian

[cabbage]

Brian,

I have actually just returned to it after the furore that always accompanies the Financial Year End!!! I have sanded and scraped all the corners square and I am now in the process of "plating" it with ABS sheeting. The roof is glued down (it is made from a sheet of balsa and will be plated with a 20 thous sheet of ABS). The original method that I had thought of for getting power to the drive axles will not be as robust as I had originally thought. So what I am going to do is to mount the drive mechanism inside the main body of the loco and take off the power through chains to each of the four drive axles.

It will still have the twin Johnson motors and the PWAM controller to them however. I have found that (from my EF-1 built) that the vibration from the Worm/Spur drive setup caused the motor to sway and thus wear out the Spur gear at a VERY fast rate!!! This time everything will be fixed in place inside the cab and the chains will take the strain. I will using a reduction of 16 to 1 and I will link the two motors together with a common shaft.

regards

ralph

[wildbill001]

so where do you get the little gears and chain?

 

Bill 

[cabbage]

Well I don't know if it is going to be any use to you...

http://www.mfacomodrills.com/

http://www.technobots.co.uk/index.html

regards

ralph

[cabbage]

Here you can see the ABS clad model with the working drawing beneath it. It is hard to see, (white on white with flash...), but I have carved in the side doors and the set of extractor grills at each "nose" of the loco. The drawing is for the original pre 1907 1-D0-1 configuration -I do have a set of drawing for the 2-D0-2 chassis to go underneath it -but this has yet to be fully dimensioned.

The chassis frame will be piece built in brass and aluminium, that is made from strips -not cut from a single sheet. Certain features will be "appliqued" into postion -and then epoxied. Others will have to be silver soldered (such as the horn blocks and grease boxes) and some pieces will actually be rivitted into position -but with 3mm and 4mm "pop" rivits. I do have a set of "snaps" but I lack the small thumbs -in short I have large hands!!!

regards

ralph

[Anonymous]

Sure looks coming out smooth!!! Great job ole chap!

Ole Toad

[cabbage]

Several people have asked, (very politely), "What is the loco that appears in the background of some of the shots?" This is actually a NER EF-1 (North Eastern Railway Electric Freight 1). This is actually a contempory of the NYC "S" motor and I thought it might be interesting to build the two of them -as each is a typical example of the "English" and "American" schools of locomotive design of the Edwardian period...



You can instantly see the typical English "plate frame" construction, in that the two sides of the bogie are cut from a single sheets, (in the original they were 2 inches thick), with inspection holes punched through them to change brake shoes and tighten linkages. Other typical English things are the red buffer beams and the "instanter" coupling chains. The only typical NER thing about it is -the white painted buffers!

On the "to build" list are PRR GG1 and NER EE-1, both express locomotives, of the same mid wars period -but unfortunately EE-1 was destined to be an inhabitant of Darlington Paint Shed for most of it's life....



regards

ralph

[van buren s l]

Ralph

I've followed your work for a couple years on various forums. Just as you do, I enjoy watching locomotives that I've built running along the tracks. I'm sure I would enjoy watching them even more if I had your ability to construct the mechanisms to run the engines.  Meanwhile, I am simply consumed with awe and envy.

Keep up the good work.  Bob

 

[cabbage]

Well a couple of days have passed and I have made some use of my time. The bulk of the superstructure is complete and has been primed and wet sanded to death!!! I have used an oblique flash shot and (hopefully) all the carved detail that was invisible last time has revealed itself in the shadows.



The dimensions for the chassis have been (finally) worked out, the main problem was getting wheels of a small enough diameter but with a gauge 3 profile -however LNWR 10 ton coal wagon wheels are pretty close -so that this is what I have based my calculations on. (V.Smith Esq -please take note....)



The transverse I beams will be made from two U sections of aluminium extrusion epoxied together the main chassis "bar" will be a single sheet of 64 thou brass with the horn guides bolted to it, (this will hold it in place while I hit it with the silver solder)... The front bar work will have to built in a jig, then silver soldered together. The "doughnut" will be the point where the differing parts of the frame join, (with a pop rivit), and I intend to epoxy the other end of the frame to the transverse I beam. This part of the chassis is actually decorative as the Adams bogie is fixed to the floor of the superstructure and makes no contact with the chassis at all.

regards

ralph

[cabbage]

Well after having persuaded Cambrian Models to part with some of their goods, (and evetually supply me with the right ones...) I have spent a very taxing Sunday Afternoon applying stuff to the outside of the "S"Motor. The "Applique" material is a combination of Cambrian and Garden Railway Specialist "G64" stuff. Non of which was ever intended to fit an Edwardian era American locomotive -but by dint of main force and a knife can be made to look as if it should be there!!!

The door handles and such like are Cambrian moldings, the external rivited iron worn is GRS stuff -actually designed for a "Wisbech and Upwell" coach! The holes drilled inot the body work show where the handles and stand off for the railings fit.



A pencil line is drawn in the primer then cross marked with a pair of compasses (the dent made by the point is hidden under the rivit). The rivits are then cut off the sprue and arranged face up with a paint brush. A length of wire is dipped into THICK CA and delicately "dobbed" at the cross points. The rivits are then pushed into the dobs of CA and set there. I found that doing more than 4 at a time caused the glue to set by the time I was on the 5th... The gaps between the rivits are at 4mm intervals -a scale 3 inches. I know the rivits are slightly over scale at 1 inch across, but to be honest if anyone would like to file them to the correct radius -they are welcome to do so!

regards

ralph

(oh -224 per side)

[Anonymous]

Ralph, which program are you using?

Toad

[cabbage]

I am sorry William -but I don't understand your question?

I normally use a Mac at home and work.

The browser is Safari and the shots from my key ring camera are processed using iPhoto. The working drawings are made using Appleworks 6, (I have finally taken all my files from Claris Works 4!). When at work I use the Mac X.11 libraries with X-Windows as a terminal and this enables me to use the BSD 4.3 Unix CAD system there, which it should do -I did afterall design it to do so!!! The CAD system is written by us, (the head office in Berne wrote it in "C" -ugh!), with our own very unique libraries of parts!!! For the normal office functions we use UNIPLEX. I will admit my new PA did expect us to use MS Office -but MS refuse to a port to UNIX...

We use Mac because it far more versatile than a PC and we can guarentee that each Mac will be the same as any other. When you are travelling around the EU you want something that can connect to any mains electricty supply and is at least tolerant of any phone connection that you care to shove into it.

Have I missed the question?

regards

ralph

[Anonymous]

Yeah, sorry, I should have made it clear wanted to know what program op sys you was using for the drawing rendering.

Don't think this poor ole country boy ever learn CAD. All my college was in heavy equipment and such. Well, you do have to go to college for becoming a Peace Officer and it was 357 hours now it is 900+. Bad thing about that is the real training happens on the street I found out.

Toad

[cabbage]

William,

As stated above, the working drawings are all in Appleworks 6, (they do a PC version too I believe). The drawing file is simply: "Save As JPG", to get into the WWW. As to using the system I have at work for drawing locos etc -that is a definate no go area!!!

If I wanted to build my locos out of the parts that we make out computers from -then I could do so...

regards

ralph

Sorry, have to go back and apply more rivits....

[cabbage]

As I am one of those people with an almost lethal sense of humour I have decided to apply it to the "S"motor. After having shared my thoughts with T.S.Ruby MSc -I will explain what I intend to do here...

This circuit has been around since I was at College (in fact I think it comes from the J Lindsey Hood Cassette deck design in Wireless World). Anyway it is simple, rugged, and cheap -all the best circuits are!!!



The 10k resistor is added to prevent small fingers turning the knob too far... What I intend to do is mimic the collection of resistors on the roof of the "S"motor and the switching system for it. To this end I will produce "fake" resistors on the roof, but hidden inside the "fake" resistors -will be real 470 ohm 1/4 watt metal films...



The collection of metal film resistors will be step switched to replace the 22k potentiometer in (2x) 470 ohm steps. If this sounds strange then I actually have a pre-amplifier that uses exactly the same technique(!)

regards

ralph

[cabbage]

Well as my father told me; "If you want to produce something repeatably -then you have to use a jig. So, take great care when you build one. A true jig will produce precise and exact copies, a poor jig will produce precise and exact trash"



So several hours have been spent with lengths of K&S section and drawings to produce what you see above... Several lengths of 5mm sq pine stuck to a couple of scraps of MDF. HOWEVER they are all specific lengths and distances apart. I can drop the required pieces into the jig and then drill them -knowing that they will not move and the pieces will all be fixed in position while the CA sets.

The top jig is the main chassis system -the horizontals hold the frame beam and the verticals will hold the horn guides. The jig below, (with the 50p coin), is the one for the end assemblies. There will be four of these, one at each end of the main chassis beam. The end result should be -two sets of mirror images.

When everything is fixed with M3 nuts and bolts, it will be time to hit it with the silver solder and the MAPP gas. I use MAPP in preference to Propane because it is hotter and the burner flame is so much "cleaner" than with either Propane or Butane. I tend to use Silver-Flo55 rather than the more common Easi-Flo2, because for some reason -I seem to be able to get a far neater joint with it(?) There is no difference in price, the melting point is 630°C (roughly 10°C higher than Easi-Flo2), or the type of flux used.

The K&S order should come sometime towards the start of next week. Then it is down to precision sawing, filing and drilling. I have never assembled a US style bar frame chassis before -nor do I know anyone who has. However I do have a small but curious audience who are wondering how much over the comming week is going to be; planning, guesswork and of course -fluke!!!

regards

ralph

[cabbage]

The pantograph fitted to the S motor is a pure home brew creation... The brass strips are actually stantions for model boats, (I found them in the Robbe catalogue). The ends are drilled out to 2.5mm from 1mm and then 3mm crimp connectors are soldered to the "plug end" of the stantion. The whole lot is then cobbled together with some M2.5 and M3 nuts and bolts.

A little dressing up and it will sit on the rear of the S motor...



regards

ralph

[cabbage]

Well another productive Sunday Afternoon....

The shot below shows the partially silver soldered "horns" for the pantograph -the impromptue jig is actually one I use quote frequently for hold thin pieces into position(!)



The "forge" is actually a fire brick from a loco which I got for a donation at "Butterley".

The next shot shows the collector plate now in position on top of the pantograph. The pantograph is held aloft by a spring rather than air pressure as in the original. The steel shaft slides up and down the brass bearing tube through the rear "nose" of the "S" motor.



The carbon greasers will be added when everything is ready to roll after some filing and suitable decoration!!!

One more to go.

regards

ralph

[cabbage]

Well at this point in time I am looking at:

1 BOX of 1x12x64thous strip
1 BOX of ½x12x64thous strip
1 BOX of ¼x12x64thous strip
1 BOX of 3mm brass set screws
1 BOX of 3mm brass nuts
2 lengths of J&M silver flo24 silver solder 710C
2 lengths of J&M silver flo55 silver solder 610C

I suppose what I should explain how I intend to assemble this collection of designer offcuts. The main beams will be cut from the 1 inch wide strip and then the horn guides cut from the ½ inch strip. The beam is then placed in the jig and the guides then CA'ed to them. The other side is then assembled in the jig -but as a mirror image i.e. the horn guides are placed into the jig and the main beam glued on top of them.

This produces two pieces that are "true" to themselves

The two assemblies are them placed back into the jig and the 3mm locking holes drilled through both pieces. This again produces two "true" pieces. The brass setscrews and nuts are then inserted and tightened up. Next the I solder with the Silver Flo24 which has a higher melting point than the Silver Flo55. I solder the backs of the setscrews and then grind off the heads leaving a flush finish. The CA has burnt off during this so it is only the soldered nuts and screws that are holding everything together. Next I hit it with the Silver Flo55 which has a far lower melting point and thus the threads remain firmly seated in their holes. I will solder up the horn guides at the top and bottom and then flash the nuts with ordinary tin solder -they will not move after that!

The horn blocks will have to be assembled by sandwiching them out of ½ inch strip (two 1 inch long and one piece ½ inch long). The 4.5mm hole for the journal will be drilled through as will the 2.5mm holes for the grease box. Next, a thick black graphite pencil line is drawn around the holes in the horn blocks, this stops the solder from flowing into the drilled holes -and plugging them... The horn blocks are then CA'ed together and the 2.5mm setscrews fitted and tightened up. The whole assembly is then heated to dull red heat and the silver flo24 solder applied. This is very liquid at high temperatures and will creep across the whole sandwich, the other alloy would not penetrate as far and leave voids.

Hopefully I will have finished all this by Saturday and I can post some suitable pictures for you.

regards

ralph

[scottychaos]

There are three surviving S-motors.

NYC 100 - derelict in Albany, NY. technically owned by a historical society, but has been left to rot for 20 years..there has been much talk on the local railfan forums lately about getting the collection of that society away from them and into the hands of a museum or group that can actually care for them...hopefully it will happen soon..they also have the only surviving T3a motor. Old Maude quietly reached her 100th birthday four years ago.

http://i165.photobucket.com/albums/u45/scottychaos/NYC-S-Motor.jpg

That number 100 was originally number 6000..and IS the actual, original "Old Maude" as discussed in the Old Maude link above..She is the first S-motor of 1904.

 

NYC 113 -  preserved at St. Louis Tranportation Museum.

NYC 115 - preserved at Illinois Railway Museum.

http://gold.mylargescale.com/Scottychaos/NewYorkCentral/index.htm

Scot

[cabbage]

Oh My LORD Scott!!!

That shot is so sad.... I knew that "Old Maude" had survived -but I had assumed she had a place in some museum somewhere. If I had taken that shot I think I would have cried!!!

Could I please use this shot in my web page?

People ask me why I built the wierd and wonderful and to me this one shot explains it all -to show that they existed and what they looked like. I applaud the preservation of the DELTIC at Barrow Hill even though it will only run on one engine rather than the two that it was equipped with -the other is a perfect source of very rare spares...

It is very nice to know that it has survived -but also very terrible to see it in that state.

regards

ralph