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Still confused with scales.

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Posted by Capt Bob Johnson on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 3:51 PM

Marthastrainyard, If you go back to threads in this forum about a year to a year and a half ago, you will find many references to "G", particularly LGB's G, as "Gummi".   The reasoning behind those comments were that the models they produced were often one scale in length, another in width, still another in height, with untold differences in details.

To my taste, everything they made looked european, even though it was supposed to be an American prototype; therefore there isn't any red box stuff on my layout.

It may have superior mechanicals in the product, but after 6 years, I haven't any complaints with the other major manufacturer's products.  And, they look more like what I used to see on the local rails!

Possibly the manufacturers should do a better job of differentiating between scale and guage when they do the box design and catalog ads; but one needs that mental disconnect between the two!

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Posted by marthastrainyard on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:27 AM

 TheJoat wrote:
Take a look at the   LargeScaleWiki

Even they can't get it right. They list Gauges under the heading Scales

Per

 

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Posted by GearDrivenSteam on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 9:23 AM
Everybody else is confused about scale, too. Just look at all the different opinions every time it's brought up. As I've said time and again, if it looks good, I use it.
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Posted by TheJoat on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 7:26 AM
Take a look at the   LargeScaleWiki
Bruce
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Posted by kimbrit on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 6:43 AM

In the garden the scale is 1 to 1 so anything you put in the garden that's not at that scale has, for me, to be pleasing to the eye. I run loco's from LGB, USA, Aristo, Bachmann and they go from 1:20.3 to 1:29. If it looks right, again for me, then it is right and I enjoy the train for what it is, a railway in a garden. If you want to go to a true scale railway then others here will point you down the route of scale plantings etc etc. Whatever, enjoy your trains for what they are, good fun!!

Cheers,

Kim

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Posted by cabbage on Tuesday, January 22, 2008 1:27 AM
Here we have ditched the whole scale gauge confusion and got back to a workable system...

I model in four scales and two gauges.

The scales are 16mm, 7mm, 13.5mm and 25mm.

The gauges are 32mm and 63.5mm.

It makes life a lot easier!!!

regards

ralph

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Posted by altterrain on Monday, January 21, 2008 11:35 PM

 SNOWSHOE wrote:
All the research I have been doing I have been seeing  and hearing about different scales.  I know the difference between HO, N scales and the Lionel.  Then you get into the G scale and there are 1:20 etc..  Then I found there is the 7/8th scale and the On30 wich really confsued me.  Is there any sites that defines the difference scales with examples to compare. I have seen other forums talk about scale but Im still confused. It seems their are so many.  I have the Bachmann big Hauler  tweetsie set and the LGB value starter set #92400 and going to be using the Aristo brass track for my layout and I hope to add on by making my own track.  I really like the 7/8th scale.  Would that work with my Aristo?   thanks for putting up with my dumb questions, eventually I will get the hang of this.Banged Head [banghead] 

7/8's is a scale modeling small industrial and a few small railroads (mostly Maine and South America) running on narrow gauge 2 foot or 18 inch wide track. 7/8's scale is 7/8's of an inch being equivalent to one foot or 1:13.7 scale. When run on "G scale" 45 mm track (also known as #1 gauge) it is two foot gauge (7/8n2). When run on "O scale" 32 mm track it is 18 inch narrow gauge (7/8n18).

Most of the locomotives are kitbashed large scale locomotives (mostly 1:20.3 or 1:22.5) that are scaled up to to 1:13.7. This is done by enlarging the cabs, widening bodies, enlarging smoke stacks and other details. Most rolling stock is scratch built with parts available from Ozark Miniatures, Hartford Products, Sierra Valley, and Talisman. Go to http://www.7-8ths.info/ for more info. This is an area of large scale trains I am starting to play with because I enjoy the free lance kitbashing/scratchbuilding aspects of it. It is more than twice the size of Aristo 1/29 scale trains so running the two together will not look right but both will run on the same track. There are quite a few modelers who dabble in both / multiple scales.

The other oddball scales are similar.

On30 is O scale (1:48 or 1:43?) narrow gauge with HO size track representing 30 inch narrow gauge though the actual models tend to be either 3 foot or 2 foot narrow gauge models adapted (regauged) to run on HO track. There are many who scale up HO engines (with kits to do so) to run On30.

Gn30 is G scale 1:22.5 trains running on O scale 32 mm track representing 30 inch narrow gauge. 

Gn15 is G scale 1:22.5 trains running on HO scale track representing 15 inch narrow gauge.

With the last two you could run G scale trains running on three different widths of track (G 45mm, O 32mm, and HO) and it would be all the same scale.

-Brian 

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Monday, January 21, 2008 11:24 PM

Yes, and "G" stuck to mean the GAUGE (not the scale) because the track is commonly used in a "Garden" (thus "G" for "Garden").  But since all the other "scales" use the letter of the gauge to represent the scale, "G" also came to mean the "scale" but everyone has their own definition of what scale the "G" represents.  In the photo above showing the various Santa Fe Warbonnet Diesels, note that they are all identified by the LETTER, not the SCALE, yet, the one for "G" could be any of the scales commonly (or uncommonly) used with "G" GAUGE track.  Even though ATSF never ran a Warbonnet Diesel of that shape on anything other than Standard Gauge, there have been several toys engines that run on Gauge 1 track in 1:22, 1:24, 1:29 and 1:32 scales... the mfg.s just squirreled with the proportions to make it look kinda nice and to fit-in with the freight and passenger cars they already make at whatever scale they want to produce.

Lots of folk believe that the "G" actually stands for "GOOFY" because of the sillyness with scales in the genre refered to as "G-scale".

Semper Vaporo

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Posted by marthastrainyard on Monday, January 21, 2008 10:23 PM
 jerryl wrote:

  "G"  gauge is made up of many different scale sizes. Scale is the proportion to the prototype that you want to model.  Gauge is the width of the track.  If you use the typical "G" gauge track & want to model American standard gauge it would come out to 32 :1.  Not many manufacturers produce this scale, most people will accept 29 ; 1 as standard because for some reason many manufacturers chose this size  ie Aristocraft.

   LGB is 22.5 : 1 because it is based on the track being 1 meter ( 39+").   Many people are using the track as 3' narrow gauge which makes the scale 20.3 : 1...which the newer Bachmann Spectrum models are. You can go to 2' narrow gauge, or even further...it's up to you. The early bachmann engines & rolling are to no actual scale. Many people mix & match scales & are happy. Others keep to one scale.

   I've seen many 24 : 1 model cars included in various RRs & they are acceptable to most people.   Jerry L

Wasn't "G" the scale (22.5:1) introduced by LGB (G=gross [big] in German) to run on Gauge 1 track? 

Per

 

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Posted by Anonymous on Monday, January 21, 2008 9:15 PM

Toad

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Posted by Capt Bob Johnson on Monday, January 21, 2008 8:12 PM

Getting back to part of the question, a year or so ago somebody posted a picture of the same loco in the various scales.  That would let you see the difference.  Try a search.  It may have been in one of the lengthy discussions that usually pop up about once a year on scale/guage!

Maybe Rene knows where to find the pic I'm talking about!!

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Posted by Semper Vaporo on Monday, January 21, 2008 6:37 PM

You have to stop thinking that a letter of the alphabet represents a numerical scale.  The letter indicates how far apart the rails of the track are (the gauge).  HO is something like 0.65 inches apart and N is around 0.35 inches.  G is 1.77 inches (45-millimeter). I don't remember the exact dimensions, you can look them up if you are really interested, I just took 56.5 (the dimension of REAL Standard Gauge Track) and divided by the 'usual' scale associated with that letter of the alphabet.  (Which is exactly what I just told you to NOT do! Shock [:O] )

But think of it this way.

If HO scale is 1:87 (or 1/87th) then what would be the dimension of "HO track" if you decided that it represented 7.25 inch gauge in the real world?  Well, if it is still HO track then it is still about .65 inches!  HO is NOT the "scale", it is the GAUGE.

If you decided to build a 1:87 scale railroad that represented a 7.25 inch gauge then the track rails would be 0.086 inches apart (7.25/87).  You could put it on your layout and it would represent a ride-on scale train in your toy HO layout.

Conversely, If you decided to use HO track to run a model of a ride-on scale train (a scale model of a scale model) then the SCALE of the HO track and the train running on it would be 1:11.1 (7.25/.65)... i.e. you would build the locomotive from plans for a 7.25 inch gauge locomotive but divide all the dimensions by 11.1 to get the sizes to make things.

MOST people still think of HO as a "scale" and that is okay until you decide to use their track to represent a different prototype gauge, then the scale changes, but the track is still 0.65 inch gauge.

This is where the On30 stuff comes from.  The SCALE decision is that "O" gauge track (which is about 1.25 inch gauge) represents 30 inch prototype gauge, and the "scale" is then 1:24 (or 1/24th).  Thus they can run 1:24 scale trains on "G" gauge track and 1:24 scale trains on "O" gauge track and the former represents Standard Gauge trains and the latter is a Narrow Gauge train all in a scale world of 1:24.

It "IS" very confusing because people confuse the SCALE with the GAUGE using the letters of the alphabet, which provides NO intuitive size relationship.

I run 1:32 scale trains on Gauge 1 (or "G" gauge) track.  My trains model standard gauge trains.  If I want to run a model of a narrow gauge train on my "G" track, say 36 inch gauge then the "SCALE" changes to 1:20.3, or if the prototype gauge is 1 meter (39.37 inches) then the scale is 1:22

Confusing, until you force yourself to think of the two things as separate, Scale and Gauge.

Semper Vaporo

Pkgs.

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Posted by jerryl on Monday, January 21, 2008 6:17 PM

  "G"  gauge is made up of many different scale sizes. Scale is the proportion to the prototype that you want to model.  Gauge is the width of the track.  If you use the typical "G" gauge track & want to model American standard gauge it would come out to 32 :1.  Not many manufacturers produce this scale, most people will accept 29 ; 1 as standard because for some reason many manufacturers chose this size  ie Aristocraft.

   LGB is 22.5 : 1 because it is based on the track being 1 meter ( 39+").   Many people are using the track as 3' narrow gauge which makes the scale 20.3 : 1...which the newer Bachmann Spectrum models are. You can go to 2' narrow gauge, or even further...it's up to you. The early bachmann engines & rolling are to no actual scale. Many people mix & match scales & are happy. Others keep to one scale.

   I've seen many 24 : 1 model cars included in various RRs & they are acceptable to most people.   Jerry L

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Still confused with scales.
Posted by SNOWSHOE on Monday, January 21, 2008 4:56 PM
All the research I have been doing I have been seeing  and hearing about different scales.  I know the difference between HO, N scales and the Lionel.  Then you get into the G scale and there are 1:20 etc..  Then I found there is the 7/8th scale and the On30 wich really confsued me.  Is there any sites that defines the difference scales with examples to compare. I have seen other forums talk about scale but Im still confused. It seems their are so many.  I have the Bachmann big Hauler  tweetsie set and the LGB value starter set #92400 and going to be using the Aristo brass track for my layout and I hope to add on by making my own track.  I really like the 7/8th scale.  Would that work with my Aristo?   thanks for putting up with my dumb questions, eventually I will get the hang of this.Banged Head [banghead] 

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