"G" gauge is made up of many different scale sizes. Scale is the proportion to the prototype that you want to model. Gauge is the width of the track. If you use the typical "G" gauge track & want to model American standard gauge it would come out to 32 :1. Not many manufacturers produce this scale, most people will accept 29 ; 1 as standard because for some reason many manufacturers chose this size ie Aristocraft.
LGB is 22.5 : 1 because it is based on the track being 1 meter ( 39+"). Many people are using the track as 3' narrow gauge which makes the scale 20.3 : 1...which the newer Bachmann Spectrum models are. You can go to 2' narrow gauge, or even further...it's up to you. The early bachmann engines & rolling are to no actual scale. Many people mix & match scales & are happy. Others keep to one scale.
I've seen many 24 : 1 model cars included in various RRs & they are acceptable to most people. Jerry L
You have to stop thinking that a letter of the alphabet represents a numerical scale. The letter indicates how far apart the rails of the track are (the gauge). HO is something like 0.65 inches apart and N is around 0.35 inches. G is 1.77 inches (45-millimeter). I don't remember the exact dimensions, you can look them up if you are really interested, I just took 56.5 (the dimension of REAL Standard Gauge Track) and divided by the 'usual' scale associated with that letter of the alphabet. (Which is exactly what I just told you to NOT do! )
But think of it this way.
If HO scale is 1:87 (or 1/87th) then what would be the dimension of "HO track" if you decided that it represented 7.25 inch gauge in the real world? Well, if it is still HO track then it is still about .65 inches! HO is NOT the "scale", it is the GAUGE.
If you decided to build a 1:87 scale railroad that represented a 7.25 inch gauge then the track rails would be 0.086 inches apart (7.25/87). You could put it on your layout and it would represent a ride-on scale train in your toy HO layout.
Conversely, If you decided to use HO track to run a model of a ride-on scale train (a scale model of a scale model) then the SCALE of the HO track and the train running on it would be 1:11.1 (7.25/.65)... i.e. you would build the locomotive from plans for a 7.25 inch gauge locomotive but divide all the dimensions by 11.1 to get the sizes to make things.
MOST people still think of HO as a "scale" and that is okay until you decide to use their track to represent a different prototype gauge, then the scale changes, but the track is still 0.65 inch gauge.
This is where the On30 stuff comes from. The SCALE decision is that "O" gauge track (which is about 1.25 inch gauge) represents 30 inch prototype gauge, and the "scale" is then 1:24 (or 1/24th). Thus they can run 1:24 scale trains on "G" gauge track and 1:24 scale trains on "O" gauge track and the former represents Standard Gauge trains and the latter is a Narrow Gauge train all in a scale world of 1:24.
It "IS" very confusing because people confuse the SCALE with the GAUGE using the letters of the alphabet, which provides NO intuitive size relationship.
I run 1:32 scale trains on Gauge 1 (or "G" gauge) track. My trains model standard gauge trains. If I want to run a model of a narrow gauge train on my "G" track, say 36 inch gauge then the "SCALE" changes to 1:20.3, or if the prototype gauge is 1 meter (39.37 inches) then the scale is 1:22
Confusing, until you force yourself to think of the two things as separate, Scale and Gauge.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Getting back to part of the question, a year or so ago somebody posted a picture of the same loco in the various scales. That would let you see the difference. Try a search. It may have been in one of the lengthy discussions that usually pop up about once a year on scale/guage!
Maybe Rene knows where to find the pic I'm talking about!!
Toad
jerryl wrote: "G" gauge is made up of many different scale sizes. Scale is the proportion to the prototype that you want to model. Gauge is the width of the track. If you use the typical "G" gauge track & want to model American standard gauge it would come out to 32 :1. Not many manufacturers produce this scale, most people will accept 29 ; 1 as standard because for some reason many manufacturers chose this size ie Aristocraft. LGB is 22.5 : 1 because it is based on the track being 1 meter ( 39+"). Many people are using the track as 3' narrow gauge which makes the scale 20.3 : 1...which the newer Bachmann Spectrum models are. You can go to 2' narrow gauge, or even further...it's up to you. The early bachmann engines & rolling are to no actual scale. Many people mix & match scales & are happy. Others keep to one scale. I've seen many 24 : 1 model cars included in various RRs & they are acceptable to most people. Jerry L
Wasn't "G" the scale (22.5:1) introduced by LGB (G=gross [big] in German) to run on Gauge 1 track?
Per
Yes, and "G" stuck to mean the GAUGE (not the scale) because the track is commonly used in a "Garden" (thus "G" for "Garden"). But since all the other "scales" use the letter of the gauge to represent the scale, "G" also came to mean the "scale" but everyone has their own definition of what scale the "G" represents. In the photo above showing the various Santa Fe Warbonnet Diesels, note that they are all identified by the LETTER, not the SCALE, yet, the one for "G" could be any of the scales commonly (or uncommonly) used with "G" GAUGE track. Even though ATSF never ran a Warbonnet Diesel of that shape on anything other than Standard Gauge, there have been several toys engines that run on Gauge 1 track in 1:22, 1:24, 1:29 and 1:32 scales... the mfg.s just squirreled with the proportions to make it look kinda nice and to fit-in with the freight and passenger cars they already make at whatever scale they want to produce.
Lots of folk believe that the "G" actually stands for "GOOFY" because of the sillyness with scales in the genre refered to as "G-scale".
SNOWSHOE wrote:All the research I have been doing I have been seeing and hearing about different scales. I know the difference between HO, N scales and the Lionel. Then you get into the G scale and there are 1:20 etc.. Then I found there is the 7/8th scale and the On30 wich really confsued me. Is there any sites that defines the difference scales with examples to compare. I have seen other forums talk about scale but Im still confused. It seems their are so many. I have the Bachmann big Hauler tweetsie set and the LGB value starter set #92400 and going to be using the Aristo brass track for my layout and I hope to add on by making my own track. I really like the 7/8th scale. Would that work with my Aristo? thanks for putting up with my dumb questions, eventually I will get the hang of this.
7/8's is a scale modeling small industrial and a few small railroads (mostly Maine and South America) running on narrow gauge 2 foot or 18 inch wide track. 7/8's scale is 7/8's of an inch being equivalent to one foot or 1:13.7 scale. When run on "G scale" 45 mm track (also known as #1 gauge) it is two foot gauge (7/8n2). When run on "O scale" 32 mm track it is 18 inch narrow gauge (7/8n18).
Most of the locomotives are kitbashed large scale locomotives (mostly 1:20.3 or 1:22.5) that are scaled up to to 1:13.7. This is done by enlarging the cabs, widening bodies, enlarging smoke stacks and other details. Most rolling stock is scratch built with parts available from Ozark Miniatures, Hartford Products, Sierra Valley, and Talisman. Go to http://www.7-8ths.info/ for more info. This is an area of large scale trains I am starting to play with because I enjoy the free lance kitbashing/scratchbuilding aspects of it. It is more than twice the size of Aristo 1/29 scale trains so running the two together will not look right but both will run on the same track. There are quite a few modelers who dabble in both / multiple scales.
The other oddball scales are similar.
On30 is O scale (1:48 or 1:43?) narrow gauge with HO size track representing 30 inch narrow gauge though the actual models tend to be either 3 foot or 2 foot narrow gauge models adapted (regauged) to run on HO track. There are many who scale up HO engines (with kits to do so) to run On30.
Gn30 is G scale 1:22.5 trains running on O scale 32 mm track representing 30 inch narrow gauge.
Gn15 is G scale 1:22.5 trains running on HO scale track representing 15 inch narrow gauge.
With the last two you could run G scale trains running on three different widths of track (G 45mm, O 32mm, and HO) and it would be all the same scale.
-Brian
The Home of Articulated Ugliness
In the garden the scale is 1 to 1 so anything you put in the garden that's not at that scale has, for me, to be pleasing to the eye. I run loco's from LGB, USA, Aristo, Bachmann and they go from 1:20.3 to 1:29. If it looks right, again for me, then it is right and I enjoy the train for what it is, a railway in a garden. If you want to go to a true scale railway then others here will point you down the route of scale plantings etc etc. Whatever, enjoy your trains for what they are, good fun!!
Cheers,
Kim
TheJoat wrote:Take a look at the LargeScaleWiki
Even they can't get it right. They list Gauges under the heading Scales
Marthastrainyard, If you go back to threads in this forum about a year to a year and a half ago, you will find many references to "G", particularly LGB's G, as "Gummi". The reasoning behind those comments were that the models they produced were often one scale in length, another in width, still another in height, with untold differences in details.
To my taste, everything they made looked european, even though it was supposed to be an American prototype; therefore there isn't any red box stuff on my layout.
It may have superior mechanicals in the product, but after 6 years, I haven't any complaints with the other major manufacturer's products. And, they look more like what I used to see on the local rails!
Possibly the manufacturers should do a better job of differentiating between scale and guage when they do the box design and catalog ads; but one needs that mental disconnect between the two!
Capt Bob Johnson wrote:Possibly the manufacturers should do a better job of differentiating between scale and guage when they do the box design and catalog ads; but one needs that mental disconnect between the two!
Captain, I couldn't agree with you more. A year ago I went to a trainshow to buy one of those cardboard train storage boxes. "What gauge?" asked the salesman and I quickly said "Standard". He immediately started to pick out an S-scale box for me! "No, I model H0 scale" I said. And the confusion was total on his side.
Semper V:
That was quite a tour of numbers. I bet you could answer a pretty basic question for me. Hope you can, at any rate.
Let us suppose I desire to model in G gauge (45mm) at 1:20.3 scale. Let us now suppose I measure a gondola, and it is 4" wide and 8" long. (Body only). What 'scale' length would that be in 20.3, and how do I determine that? Since in Ozark Minature's catalog, on the back page conversion chart, 12" in 20.3 is given as 0.591. (Presumably, inches).
Let's round up to 0.6, as I'm disinclined to work to less than a hundreth of an inch. Thus, the length of the gon would be 8 divided by .6, or 13.3 scale feet long. Right? And by the same math, it would be 4/.6 or 6.6 scale feet wide? Am I doing this right?
Anyone else can dive right in, because I've sure managed to confuse myself.
Thanks,
Les W.
It is unfortuate that the scale designation is done with a colon (":") instead of the division sign ("/") because if the scale were shown with the division sign it would be a lot more obvious what to do.
1:20.3 is the same as 1/20.3
Like you I am oft loath the work with fractions at all, so let's, just for the sake of aleviating the mental gymnastics, drop the ".3" and just call it 1/20.
Thus the scale world is one twentheth of the real world (well, in this instance anyway).
I assume from the measurements you provided that you are starting from the scale world and not the real world. If the body is just 4-inches wide AND we assume it is a 1:20 scale model then the real world body is 20 times wider (the scale world is 1/20 of the real world, or the real world is 20 times the scale world)... divide to go to the scale world and multiply to return to the real world... so the original would be 20 times 4-inches which is, uh, wait till I get my calculator... okay, 80 inches and that reduces to 6-feet 8-inches.
Do the same with the 8-inch length and you get 13-feet 4-inches.
Now, throw that point three back into it and re-calculate the numbers.
Okay, okay, while I got the calculator out...
4-inches at 1:20.3 scale is 6' 9.2" in the real world.
8-inches at 1:20.3 scale is 13' 6.4" in the real world.
YOU ARE NOT ALONE in the confusion... just look back through the postings on this, or any other model site, and you will see your question in one form or another many times over.
Charles, or Semper Vaporo,
I am sorry to say, you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem!
The Scale is the letter, the gauge is just a measurement between the rails. In O scale or 1:48, 32 mm between the rails is standard gauge, while 16.5 mm track is a narrow gauge known as On30, where 30 is the number of scale inches between the rails. An O scale person is the same size/height in standard gauge or narrow gauge. He is still 1:48.
In Large Scale the principal track used is 45mm guage, but a number of different scales are using that track to run their trains. In 1:32 scale or No. 1 scale they are standard gauge (although for some unknown reason, American modellers accept 1:29 as standard gauge) In half inch scale (1:24) the tracks are 42 inches apart, or 3' 6". In 1:22.5 (LGB or the first G scale) the tracks are one metre or 39.39 inches apart. In 1:20.3 the tracks are 3 feet apart. This has become known as F Scale, because it is the letter before G.
Mick
Mt Beenak, Down Under
Chief Operating Officer
Northern Timber Company - Mt Beenak
Snowshoe,
First, I'm glad you are considering 7/8 scale; 2nd, you can use just about any size rail with 7/8n2 or 7/8n18 because the poundage (pounds per yard) of rail varies so much on each line and each country.
I have a table somewhere but off the top of my head, if you are using say code 148, that might represent 20 lb rail, used for very light operations. Code 330 might represent 90 lb rail at the other end. So you'd be dead on. That covers most of the rail codes (in between those figures); although 148 is hard to work with as ballast issues arise (although I've developed 2 methods to alleviate that issue).
Code 250 seems to be the most popular among 7/8 enthusiasts as an excellent compromise. Tie spacing is usually twice as far and wide as your normal G gauge ready to run track so you'd need to relay ties for it to look halfway decent, with wood the preferred material.
I sent you an email
Semper/Charles
Thank you for the comprehensive reply. Regrettably, in posting at that hour I failed to make it clear that I am starting with 'real world' measurements, in this case the common Echo gondola, which is 4" wide x 8.5" long. (I neglected to add the .5 to keep things simple).
My purpose is to understand the scale size of this undersized, no-scale gondola in terms of scale feet in a 20.3 world. Or, 1/20, which, by using, I agree is much clearer to illustrate. I came up with numbers very close to yours by measuring with my 1:1 pocket tape, namely 8", then dividing that by .6, (though .591 is accurate) and arriving at 13.3 scale feet in length. Note that I did not use 20.3 or .591 and still came up with a close approximation of your numbers.
But that is the hidden Jewel of The Quest: by what number does one divide to determine roughly the scale size of a given object in the 1/20 world? That number is .6 divided into the actual, realworld number. Right? Our numbers certainly correlate rather closely.
If I am correct--and if I'm not I hope you'll be kind enough to try again--I can now take my steel 6" machinist's pocket scale, calibrated in .01, measure perhaps a wheel diameter, mentally divide by .6 and conclude, lo, this is about a 30" dia wheel in the 1/20 world where I model.
Of course, when final layout and construction begin, the decimals will have to creep back in.
Thank you very much for taking time to illustrate your explanation: "Divide to go to the scale world and multiply to go to the real world." Admirably lucid. Would that I was a stonemason and had a flat rock handy.
Les W (freezing on the s. bank of the Missouri)
Ralph,
nice illustrations; I took a 7/8 ruler and pasted it on a normal ruler. Same you can do with 16mm or whatever scale. I'm not good at math and it makes life simple. Just ensure a 5' 5" engineer fits in the cab. Don't know what that translates to metric. I'm disappointed the US didn't go metric back in the 1960s when the push was on and the Brits, who invented feet and inches, abandoned us
Mt Beenak wrote: Charles, or Semper Vaporo, I am sorry to say, you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem!
Well...if I am not a part of the solution, but instead I'm a part of the problem... at least I'm a part of the situation and I don't feel left out!
Mt Beenak wrote: The Scale is the letter, the gauge is just a measurement between the rails. In O scale or 1:48, 32 mm between the rails is standard gauge, while 16.5 mm track is a narrow gauge known as On30, where 30 is the number of scale inches between the rails. An O scale person is the same size/height in standard gauge or narrow gauge. He is still 1:48.
I could agree with your assessment, but only in the O and smaller scales, mainly because the multitude of manufacturers are in agreement as to the relationship of the Scale and Gauge and the letter of the alphabet. NO such tacit agreement exists in the "G" world. And the retail world compounds it even further by calling everything "G-SCALE".
Also, I have read that On30 is the use of "O-gauge" track to represent 30-inch gauge in the 1/24 scale world. 32mm(gauge) * 24(scale) = 768mm = 30 inches(real world gauge). Maybe what I read was wrong? Maybe I misunderstood it?
Just to verify if I am not a total dork, I looked up the word "SCALE" in my old (really old) Webster's Seventh New Collegiate Dictionary. WOW, I didn't realize how overloaded that word is... seven MAJOR entries for "scale" and each has multiple definitions!
My use in this discussion is from the 5th definition of the 5th entry (my dictionary, anyway); "a proportion between two sets of dimensions". Thus, for ME, it is the relationship of the linear dimensions of the original and the model.
I wonder if your use is from one of the other definitions? Please, I'm not trying to be facetious here, I don't think you use the word in this discussion to mean to climb over a wall or the pan of a balance beam, nor a graduated series of musical tones. I have a "Scale" in my pocket too (3 as a matter of fact; a Starrett machinist's rule, one from PM Research and another of "hardware store" ancestry) and a "Scale" on my desk to weigh parcels to be mailed. I wonder if your use is more akin to the 3rd definition of the 5th entry; "something graduated esp. when used as a measure or rule", or maybe the 4th definition: "a graduated series or scheme of rank or order".
Those are all valid definitions and in the realm of model trains and the random attempt to standardize sizes so one manufacturers products will fit with other manufacturers products, your and my definitions are somewhat in conflict.
Mt Beenak wrote: In Large Scale the principal track used is 45mm guage, but a number of different scales are using that track to run their trains. In 1:32 scale or No. 1 scale they are standard gauge (although for some unknown reason, American modellers accept 1:29 as standard gauge) In half inch scale (1:24) the tracks are 42 inches apart, or 3' 6". In 1:22.5 (LGB or the first G scale) the tracks are one metre or 39.39 inches apart. In 1:20.3 the tracks are 3 feet apart. This has become known as F Scale, because it is the letter before G. MickMt Beenak, Down Under
Mt Beenak or Mick,
I wish that the LETTER designations had NEVER been put forth. They just confuse matters for those that have not used the letters to the extent where they have immediate meaning when they are encountered. That and the fact that the manufacturers and retail advertisers have not jumped on the bandwagon of "proper" use of them in the world of "Large Scale trains".
Read any magazine or web site or even the box a "model" train comes in and you see "G-SCALE"; but if one is set next to another they can plainly be seen as different "SCALES"... uh, "PROPORTIONS"!!!; i.e.: one will be considerably larger than the other even if they are purportedly "models" of the exact same real-world item.
Now, that doesn't bother some folk; they don't care if the boxcar is twice as big as the locomotive. Others are bothered if the engineer in the locomotive cab would have to crawl through the door if he tried to enter the caboose. "I" am bothered when I see a photo of something I think I'd like to have and the only indication of "size" is that it says it is "G-scale". I have purchased items like that and been BURNED badly because the item was 1:24, or 1:20.3 and I wanted 1:32.
Granted, things are getting better with some manufacturers now stating the scale and the gauge in numerical (unambiguous) values. But many, especially retailers, are still believing that EVERYBODY does not care about size relationships in their model trains.
I do take issue with one of your statements! This business of "American modellers accept 1:29 as standard gauge". I was born in America and have always lived in America and to most folk of the world that makes me an American, so you need to know that "I", representing at least one "American modeler", DO NOT "accept" 1:29 at all. I will admit that most if not all of the 1:29 products have excellent detailing of the bits and bobs on them to produce very nice looking "toy" trains (did you catch my little indignant taunt there?), but having a 10-percent error in length, width and height, they have a 30-percent error in volume and that, "TO ME", makes 1:29 just plain STUPID. I guess if you had said "most Americans..." I would have just had to sigh and accept that you are right (sadly).
Yepo, had to give this thread the great RR cat!
Now he has size!
Cabbage:
Well, I'm going to assume I must have the conversion factor right, as Semper didn't correct me. What a relief!
Thanks for the Brandbright gif; I think I now have a better understanding of some of your terminology. To develop that subject (terminology) a little more: for me, as a rank newcomer, the designation 'G' is fine. It serves to differentiate from the other major gauges. However, as a retired tool & die maker, it's just too difficult for me to set out to work to an arbitrary or perhaps 'self-designated' --though realistic--size. I need parameters within which to confine my thinking. The plethora of 'scales' in G size is regrettable but no more than that, once one has determined upon which scale one finds most congenial. And I personally don't mind seeing mixed scales on the same layout. It just doesn't bother me. But when I build something, I want to approximate 1/20.3 as nearly as I can without undue strain.
But, you may wonder, what of those undersized gondolas you have? Nothing. They don't worry me at all because as my modelling skills develop, I'll replace them, and in the meantime they serve as approximations for other issues involved in building a layout.
By the way, what is the standard freight wheel diameter in 1/1? Do you happen to know what it was in the last cent--er, in the 19th century? With my newfound scale, I notice the wheels on those gondolas are remarkably large.
To me, this has been a very illuminating thread, and I want to thank all who've taken a moment to participate.
TF:
Okay, he's a big 'un. But what scale is he?
Les W (who is freezing even more on the Ol Missouri)
Semper Vaporo wrote: Also, I have read that On30 is the use of "O-gauge" track to represent 30-inch gauge in the 1/24 scale world. 32mm(gauge) * 24(scale) = 768mm = 30 inches(real world gauge). Maybe what I read was wrong? Maybe I misunderstood it?
Almost, On30 is still O scale, 1/48 scale not 1/24 scale. Its not O gauge track but HO track used in O scale to represent 30 inch gauge track.
Now to further confusicate things, there are guys using O guage track in large scale to represent 24" gauge track in G scale, I've seen that referred to as Gn24 in 1/22.5 scale.
And to completely discombobulate things, theres that whole subversive group using HO track in large scale to represent 15 inch gauge track or Gn15 in 1/22.5 scale
Have fun with your trains
"ToadFrog&WhiteLightn" wrote: Yepo, had to give this thread the great RR cat!Now he has size! Toad
I think that pic constitutes animal cruelty, just look at how humiliated that poor cat is...even the mice are laughing
vsmith wrote: Semper Vaporo wrote: Also, I have read that On30 is the use of "O-gauge" track to represent 30-inch gauge in the 1/24 scale world. 32mm(gauge) * 24(scale) = 768mm = 30 inches(real world gauge). Maybe what I read was wrong? Maybe I misunderstood it?Almost, On30 is still O scale, 1/48 scale not 1/24 scale. Its not O gauge track but HO track used in O scale to represent 30 inch gauge track.Now to further confusicate things, there are guys using O guage track in large scale to represent 24" gauge track in G scale, I've seen that referred to as Gn24 in 1/22.5 scale.And to completely discombobulate things, theres that whole subversive group using HO track in large scale to represent 15 inch gauge track or Gn15 in 1/22.5 scale
Okay, I'll accept that I am wrong in my understanding of what On30 is supposed to mean. I hope that others that have read my prior comments will read further and see your correction so they will not be mislead by my words.
But, it leads to my point as to why I wish the lettered scales had never been promulgated. Someday in the future someone will say they have an On30 layout and someone else, who is new to this realm will have to ask, "What is On30?" That will require a full explanation of:
"On30 is O scale, which is 1:48, but using HO scale track (which is 16-mm gauge) to represent a 30-inch gauge track."
Then someone will ask how that is figured and that will get discussed and cussed and someone will get frustrated and award another cat award to the thread.
Then it will happen again a few months later, and again a few more months later, ad nauseum.
Wouldn't it have been simpler for the original statement to be, "I model 30" gauge in 1/48 scale."
Yes, that would require more words for the original statement, but a great savings in frustration on the part of all the newbies for years to come, and a great reduction to the number of repeat threads asking what the non-intuitive letter of the alphabet means.
And there will be no more need for poor obese cats to be dressed in frillies and awarded to threads that some folk wanted and needed to be a serious discussion to understand the subject of "scales".
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