The "mean" railroader...

zugmann wrote:

honestly, i could care less how you spend your time.  But I reserve the right to make comment when you're out there at 630am on a beautiful sunday taking a photo of stack trains.

But that's part of the point. It's a beautiful Sunday and we're outside enjoying it. I would much rather be outside on a beautiful day than on the computer or watching TV.

I'm still relatively new here and this is an interesting thread. I've been a rail fan all of my life and I had never met an unfriendly RR employee until I joined this forum. As far as waving, I drove semis for 30 years and always waved at folks that waved at me.  Of course pretty girls and kids usually got a toot on the horn as well.

Mookie wrote:

So those of you [railroaders] that don't like me watching you work, don't flatter yourselves - I am not even looking at you. Ms Mook!

Well said.      

But isn't that the whole point of the"sport" or "hobby" of train watching?

Some folks go simply to watch trains, some go trackside to look for a specific train, some go to people watch and some go looking to see the what and why of operations.

I have been trackside with both Carl and Miss Mookie...and I can tell you that unless Carl knew the crew, odds are he never notices them beyond returning a wave or acknowledging a horn toot...he "collects" cars, and looks for the one of a kind or unique cars, can tell you when it was built, who built it, how many they built, and who ordered them...it is his way of enjoying the hobby, and like me, unless it is a rare or oddball locomotive the locomotive is nothing but a tool to get the jobs done.

We both have been in the cabs on the long trips, know what the crew does, and why they do it...we understand them, so beyond the simple wave they spark no real interest, simply because they are us!

It isn't because we don't care, or don't see them as people, it is because what they are, railroaders, isn't a unique experience for us.

Mookie, on the other hand, is interested in the why part of the operation...why does this train back out of town, instead of drag out....why do switch crews run around a cut of cars to work an industry...what are track skates and how do they work....why does one train get a yellow over flashing red, but the next one gets a green board?

She grew up with a railroader for a dad, and has quite a few railroaders for friends, so the person in the machine is not that unique to her...like Carl and me, she knows them, what type of people they are and how they live, so that side holds nothing new for her...

Personally, even after a hard day switching, I still get my groove on watching a train, any train, run down the main, be it a simple stacker, a manifest or a local switcher...for me, it's the sheer power of the machine, plus the skill needed to make it all work, and the sheer pleasure of watching my efforts in the yard turn into a train you guys watch.

After all, if we all enjoyed the same aspect of this, wouldn't this forum become a dull place?

It is the unique differences we all enjoy that add so much to the hobby.

I encourage fans to ask questions, and I enjoy them watching...what I don't like and may qualify me as a "mean" railroader are the fans that assume they have a right to come on property for that one special photo, or intentionally ignore the fact that you are working, and keep pestering you to stop and answer their questions or explain something to them...which I am happy to do if I am not busy...

Catch Carl when he is tracks side and not at work, and he will probably help you fill up several notebooks on car types and info...snag me track side, and I'll answer any question I can for you...pester either one of us while we are really busy working, and you probably wont get too much out of us.

We are all in this for our own personal reasons.  Personally, I like watching trains and wondering (or trying to know) where is that train coming from, where is it going, how many cars, what kind of product, what is the revenue of the cars and train, value of the lading, what is it used for, how profitable is it to transport, how many employees, what are the handling requirements, etc.  I termed myself a few years ago as an economic railfan.

I dont go railfaning, per se, but always carry my camera and will snap a photo, then count the cars, containers, etc. 

During years of this activity, I have encountered a number of railroaders and always try to stay OUT OF THEIR WAY.  Particulary the last 7 years.  They have a job to do and things have changed.  That being said, most (if not all) of the railroaders I have encountered are friendly, as long as you are polite and dont bother them.

Years ago, between appointments, I would sit near O'hare, Midway, or Lambert (St Louis) and watch the incoming or departing jets.  That has pretty much been eliminated.  A perfect spot for combining railroading/jets was Bensenville, at the south side of the former Milwaukee (now CP) yard.  Throw in passing trucks on Irving Park Rd and most of the intermodal options were at hand.

ed

One advantage of living so many years on a small railroad branch line was you got to know the crew pretty well. Usually the only time the guys in the caboose didn't wave was when they were napping!!

I've had trains stop a few times. When I was little I used to always run out and wave as the MN&S went past my house, in winter I had to stay in the house but I flashed the front porch light on and off. Right before Christmas (and just after I turned five) the crew stopped the train in front of my house, and brought me a new "railroad" flashlight so I could use that to signal them. That made quite an impression!!

I can't be absolutely sure, but I would bet some serious money on the following:  if...IF...you could persuade an entire group randomly selected from the general populace, say the same numbers as have responded to this thread, to state their opinions and feelings about this subject to each other, you would get as much disparity as we see here.  It should not be surprising that we each come to the umbrella of the hobby and all it offers with specific interests.  That necessarily means to some personalities that they will be somewhat less tolerant of the interests of others, and quite a few won't have any qualms about expressing it in simple and direct statements such as those we have seen.  Others prefer more oblique language where there is a bit more ambiguity, thus allowing themselves to shrug it off as perhaps a misinterpretation. 

That's not my point.  My point is, why should the same dynamic not be largely duplicated out there on the front lines of railfandom?  Is every railroader a Type A, Type B, Type X, Type Y?  Stubbing one's toe at zero dark thirty on the way to the john, and then having to get that toe into a work boot and out to the train for a long shift is probably going to make even the sunniest disposition a bit grumpy after several hours of numbing pain.  Or an impending divorce might cloud an otherwise sunny day.  I suppose we could blame a bad childhood.  But we won't all see the same things the same way.  It shows in this thread, and it should show out there at the company property lines.

I do try to make eye contact and smile and acknowledge the "person" if I feel I have.  It's my nature.  It may not be yours. Which of us is right in our own heads?

-Crandell

zugmann wrote:

honestly, i could care less how you spend your time.  But I reserve the right to make comment when you're out there at 630am on a beautiful sunday taking a photo of stack trains.

Right now I'm working out of state 6 days a week.  Sunday morning 0630 before church is my only free time.  When do you have free time?               SMILE.

Only when I mark off... but then I don't get paid.  Life is a compromise, eh?  

Now I know who was out there at 630.  But he didn't even put the photo of my train online.  (we didn't have sexy foreign power like the other trains that day...)

 You'll have to forgive me... it has been a loooong week with a couple of lousy trips.   

I'm still going to make comments though.  It brings a laugh in the cab.  

People are people - and like in any other group of folk, those who work for the railroad include all personality types.

Thirty years ago, I used to hang out at WJ Tower in Ridgewood, NJ.  Two of the operators were friendly.  One of them was just the nicest guy you'd ever meet.  He let me stay up in the tower all day.  The other woudn't invite me up, but was always pleasant, and when I came up with others he knew, he would let me stay.

Then, there was a third guy... young guy... who not only would not allow me up (well, I assume, I never tried when he was on duty)... but if he saw me there, he would throw things out the window at me.  Mind you, I never once had a conversation with him, and he had no reason to dislike me.  He just enjoyed being a jerk.

red p wrote:

I didnt see any company officials on the list. Doesnt that tell you something

Yes, it tells you something, but it's not necessarily what you think it is.  Oficers that a railfan encounters are usually out somewhere in the role of a troubleshooter, and if you have an encounter with them, it's because you're perceived as being trouble.  In the preceding post, if the official were around instead of the fan, you think he wouldn't drive the conductor up to the hose that needed changing?  He may have different motives, but everybody is there to get the work done.

You may not find many examples here, but they do exist.  Look back a year and a half ago, and find Ed Blysard's Christmas tale, and note the trainmaster's role in the story.

Then look at my previous posting on this thread, and the mention of my pre-career railroading.  The operative words there were "once I proved myself."  They knew I could safely follow instructions and keep myself out of harm's way.  Suffice it to say that one of my rides the length of the subdivision was in a caboose that also housed a trainmaster and a superintendent.  We weren't exactly hiding from each other.

In my job, I encounter officers that I have no use for, but that doesn't necessarily indicate that they are "mean".  They may be stupid, ignorant, or buffoons, but those are character traits that the average railfan wouldn't get a chance to see--and they aren't the exclusive domain of officers, either.

CShaveRR wrote:

In the preceding post, if the official were around instead of the fan, you think he wouldn't drive the conductor up to the hose that needed changing?  He may have different motives, but everybody is there to get the work done.

When I met our local trainmaster, he was helping the two-man local crew double out (more like quadruple out) a lengthy train, including ferrying the conductor around.  That easily cut the amount of time required for the task in half as it saved the conductor a lot of walking.

Erie Lackawanna wrote:

Then, there was a third guy... young guy... who not only would not allow me up (well, I assume, I never tried when he was on duty)... but if he saw me there, he would throw things out the window at me.  Mind you, I never once had a conversation with him, and he had no reason to dislike me.  He just enjoyed being a jerk.

Too bad you didn't get some video of him littering as he threw stuff at you--get his sorry butt reprimanded!! 

===============================================================

I always waved and/or tooted (local laws permitting) at railfans. 

When I was young, it meant so much to me to have a train crewman acknowledge my presence; after all, they were my heroes, doing something I could (as a kid) only dream of doing.  Years later, I got my dream job of being an Engineer.  And knowing what it meant to me as a railfan to be given a friendly nod by the train crew, how could I do less for others? 

Anyway, how cool is it to be doing something for a living that other people are willing to spend their spare time watching?

So, RRKen and all the other grouches here, I ask you: how can you act like a railfan (you are here on a railfan forum) in your spare time, but act like a sourpuss to those other railfans who are actually just like you?  I'm not saying you should almost fall out of the window giving railfans a big 'highball', but a simple nod or little wave might go a long way towards making someone happy?  Is that too much to ask?

LOL @this thread.

I had my first mean encounter in years last week.  A female CPR crew member who seemed to be riding in the engineer's seat into Shoreham at University East gave me the palm on the bicep gesture. 

zardoz wrote:

So, RRKen and all the other grouches here, I ask you: how can you act like a railfan (you are here on a railfan forum) in your spare time, but act like a sourpuss to those other railfans who are actually just like you?  I'm not saying you should almost fall out of the window giving railfans a big 'highball', but a simple nod or little wave might go a long way towards making someone happy?  Is that too much to ask?

1. I aint no grouch.  
2. I am not like the rest of you.
3. I am working, and direct my efforts to that.
4. I do not wave to those I do not know, or have any affiliation with.
5. I do not wave.
6. I do not wave.
7. I do not wave.

I will not wave at a car...

I will not wave from a bar...

I will not wave from a siding...

I will not wave while you are riding.....

Harry_Runyon wrote:

I will not wave at a car... I wil not wave from a bar... I will not wave from a siding... I will not wave while you are riding.....

Burma Shave!

RRKen wrote:

Harry_Runyon wrote: I will not wave at a car... I wil not wave from a bar... I will not wave from a siding... I will not wave while you are riding.....   Burma Shave!

The only "mean" encounter that I recall happened about 1969 or 1970.  I was taking pictures with a Yashica twin-lens reflex camera around the south end of Espee's passenger terminal in downtown San Francisco.  Some "mechanical types," i.e., carmen, machinists, or mechanical foremen, shooed me away in a rather stern tone of voice.  Of course I was much younger then, and I seem to recall the time was around the evening rush hour, so maybe they were more concerned about my safety than I realized.

On a lighter note ... a MoPac trainmaster once told me that whenever a trainmen gives a wave with a bare hand outside a caboose window, he's actually giving you "the finger" five times over!  

RRKen wrote:

zardoz wrote: So, RRKen and all the other grouches here, I ask you: how can you act like a railfan (you are here on a railfan forum) in your spare time, but act like a sourpuss to those other railfans who are actually just like you?  I'm not saying you should almost fall out of the window giving railfans a big 'highball', but a simple nod or little wave might go a long way towards making someone happy?  Is that too much to ask? I aint no grouch.   I am not like the rest of you. I am working, and direct my efforts to that. I do not wave to those I do not know, or have any affiliation with. I do not wave. I do not wave. I do not wave.

1. Yes, you are (see #4,#5,#6,#7)

2. Yes you are (inasmuch as regards railfanning)

3. You can't wave while operating??  Gee, you must run on an incredibly undulating track profile, with hogbacks every 1/4 mile, 9-degree curves every mile, with multiple slow orders and Form G orders, and 15000 tons of mis-matched train blocking, if you are so busy in the cab that you can't spare 2 seconds to make someone a little happier.

My paycheck says: "brought to you by our customers".

Not: "brought to you by those whose day you made happier".

This has nothing to do with who's paying who for what.

I fully understand why a train crew person does not wave: many of them are tired, have lost their wives, feel like crap, and are caught between the rock and hard place of a railroad that wants to skimp on safety and the Feds that watch a railroader to be sure they follow all those safety rules. And it seems that 'these days' many of the railroad employees look at railroading as "just a job". They cannot imagine anyone actually being interested in a railroad for anything other than a (rather nice) paycheck.  

Those of you that are both rails AND railfans know exactly what I'm talking about.  You can tell at work when your coworker is just 'doing their job' compared to someone who actually enjoys their work.  The engineers in the first group are fond of using the phrase, "A bad engineer gets paid the same as a good one".  They have no pride in their work (or themselves, either). 

What I DO NOT understand is why someone who visits a RAILFAN forum would be so down on being nice to a FELLOW railfan.

zardoz wrote:

This has nothing to do with who's paying who for what. I fully understand why a train crew person does not wave: many of them are tired, have lost their wives, feel like crap, and are caught between the rock and hard place of a railroad that wants to skimp on safety and the Feds that watch a railroader to be sure they follow all those safety rules. And it seems that 'these days' many of the railroad employees look at railroading as "just a job". They cannot imagine anyone actually being interested in a railroad for anything other than a (rather nice) paycheck.   Those of you that are both rails AND railfans know exactly what I'm talking about.  You can tell at work when your coworker is just 'doing their job' compared to someone who actually enjoys their work.  The engineers in the first group are fond of using the phrase, "A bad engineer gets paid the same as a good one".  They have no pride in their work (or themselves, either).  What I DO NOT understand is why someone who visits a RAILFAN forum would be so down on being nice to a FELLOW railfan.

Your posts insisting that I wave at people are not making me happy.

And I'm not even a rail..

zardoz wrote:

This has nothing to do with who's paying who for what.

Yes it does.  I do my job - that job does not involve waving to a bunch of railfans too engrossed in their railpicture.net photo to wave back.  Now the ones that are out having fun, sure I wave... 

zugmann wrote:

zardoz wrote: This has nothing to do with who's paying who for what.   Yes it does.  I do my job - that job does not involve waving to a bunch of railfans too engrossed in their railpicture.net photo to wave back.  Now the ones that are out having fun, sure I wave...

I'll wave to that 

zugmann wrote:

My paycheck says: "brought to you by our customers". Not: "brought to you by those whose day you made happier".

If it wasn't for John Doe, Jane Doe, their cousin Cookie Doe and the rapper in the family Doe a Deer, buying the goods that traverse the railroads, purchasing the power from the utilities. John Q. Public working in the auto plant where they receive the parts from the railroads. Ect......

Who pays the railroad to deliver the goods and in turn, pays the railroad employees?

I tried googling a story about a company in the midwest somewhere that shipped out about 3,000 carloads and received about the same,a year via rail. The guy that owned the company was an avid railfan and one day he went out and watched the railroad switch them out. The crew was rude and told the guy to get a real job instead of watching them. The guy was on HIS (company)property that HE owned. Long story short (man i wish i could find it), in the following weeks, he switched what he could over to trucks. That there in itself, cancelled out that extra job that was needed to switch that plant/business. I guess what im saying is "you never know who that person is that is watching your train". Could be an insane foamer, to a person thats watching his loads go by, to a person that is just out on a walk decided to give a friendly wave.

As i wrap this up, that story has to do with the WC and how the railroad is customer oriented. Worried customers about the impending CN takeover. Had to do with major railroads merging.