682 Oiler Linkage...DON'T DO THIS!!!

[daan]

...To her should I even say god forgive me "They're toys"

And yes, they are. Only because some people are prepared to pay hundreds of dollars more for an identical piece of "junk" only because it has 2 extra rivets and an extra tiny piece of metal attatched it's very lucrative to add those "spareparts" to the ones that don't have that. Or to give 2 tiny pieces of plastic another color so the whole looks (and sells) a bit better.

Any person with an IQ higher than the average baboon knows that it (has been) done. But to call it a fraud? No way, Lionel itself build the 682 exactly the same way. Take the cheap version, add the spares and voila, off you go. Lionel made a box to go with it, with the number on it. If you want to have an original, buy one with all the boxes etc. As soon as the boxes are gone, any "aftermarket" conversion is exactly the same as Lionel's original. You, nor anyone else, can tell if the loco is original. Any 682 without all boxing and operators manual is nothing more then a cheap version with some extra's. No matter if it's done by Lionel or at someones kitchen table, because you can't tell the difference.

The whole problem is with the collectors. As soon as the collectors decide that a 682 without the boxes is not an original and is not sold or sold at the same or lower price then the cheap version, those conversions stop. It's not a lucratrive business anymore. The problem is that the collectors keep treating possible rebuilds as original because they have dollar signs in their eyes and want to use trains to invest their money.

Trains are not an investment, they are toys! An original 682 turbine, with boxes, manuals and all odds and ends is not for sale at $300! The seller doesn't live on the moon. As long as people are buying stuff like this (look alikes without the boxes or other proof of originallity), it's completely logical that people convert and rebuild, restyle and change in order to sell their products. The market wants them to and is willing to pay for it!

If you are an operator, you are the lucky winner, because eventually the prices of the ones without boxes drop and you'll be able to have a nice looking 682 at a fair price! If you are a collector and want an original, keep the money in your pocket untill you find one with boxes and manuals, clearly showing that it has left the factory the way you are looking at it.

 

 

[PhilaKnight]

Anyway for the price my wife would prob sell my trains at I don't think anyone would care if it's a fake or not. When I talk about a 2020 she thinks it the news show. To her should I even say god forgive me "They're toys"

[Deputy]

PK: I planned on doing the 682 conversion to my 681 too!!!  The parts are all readily available. Shouldn't cost all that much to do.

[PhilaKnight]

BF you make a good point . I never heard that rumor about 682's untill here. We could think of a million possibilties or conspericies on the 681/682 Caper. I'm not promoting anyone's rumor or spreading it. I never heard anything about Madison Hardware except that they made parts and you can tell they differ from Lionel. We all know that their are people who say and fake rare items to defraud. If it is rockets, boats, cars or any other part that is commonly lost on trains their is a repo for it and then there be someone who dosen't know and might say it's a rare version of the train. You see it all the time on E-Bay "Don't know much about trains"  Don't want anyone mad at me so I'm done with this. Just being a devils advocite (wish there was spell check on this) All this has done for me is that I'm deffinitly going to try to make a 681 a 682. I should post the pictures of the progress. Does anyone had a 681 the are selling? HAHAHA 

 

[Deputy]

Well those faked NH boxcars are sure evidence enough for me of fraud, and they didn't repaint them just for funsies. That article is straight out of CTT. If you want to believe that MH has halos around it and walks on water, that's YOUR choice. As to harm, the only harm I see being done is to those who get duped into paying big $$$ for fakes.

[bfskinner]

Deputy,

You say "How VERY interesting. " Not to me.

Of course Madison Hardware in New York (and more-than-likely Richard Kughn's "Madison Hardware" in Michigan) modified Lionel equipment, surplus and otherwise. They were "Service Centers" for Pete's sake!

The issue is your still-unsupported allegation of deliberate fraud-for-extra-profit at Madison Hardware in Michigan. So far, you haven't even come close to proving your point. Are you saying that Mr. Shaw has "come clean" and acknowledged participating in a scheme to defraud. I haven't read the article and really don't know. Besides, that would have been New York, not Michigan. Yes?

What you have alleged may be true. On the basis of what you have presented so far, however, most likely it is not. I'm persuaded that you innocently posted a nasty rumor  and are now scrambling to try to support it. In my opinion that's not the right order in which to do things. It always carries the potential of doing considerable harm. I believe that we need fewer emoticons and more rational thinking; although I fully realize that emotions always prevail over reason -- at least in the short run.

Unless something really new crops up, I'm not going to spend any more time on this. If nothing else, I hope we will all be a bit more careful about the rumors we spread. By the way, does everyone know that the CIA buried Jimmy Hoffa under the grassy knoll?

[Deputy]

An interesting story by Carl Shaw of the MADISON HARDWARE CO. IN NEW YORK CITY in the March 2007 CTT.  It involved the NYC boxcar with doors painted brown...a color that was NOT original, but was painted on by "store personnel" when they painted the doors of surplus door shells. How VERY interesting.

[bfskinner]

PhilaKnight,

Pardon me, but I fear you have missed the point. Consider the possibility that when your wife sells your estate some buyer discovers that his train wasn't exactly what he expected ; and then alleges in some public forum that your wife is a "scam artist" who "knowingly  misrepresented the quality or originality of the items she was selling" from your estate. 

Once the rumor gets out there, will it matter that the accusation is false? Wait until others, perhaps even your former friends, chime in by asking what additional scams she has been involved with. The fact that they ask about "additional" scams will indicate that they have accepted the initial allegations as true. By definition, you won't be there to defend her. Who will? 

The last few posts in this thread, as bothersome as they may be to some members, have never been about minor alterations which may-or-may-not have been made to certain locomotives. They have been about unsupported allegations of deliberate fraud and misrepresentations against folks who are presumed to be honorable. It could just as easily happen to your wife. You might think about that possibility when considering whether to support rempant gossip and rumor-mongering.

 

[Deputy]

Well said PK!!!

[PhilaKnight]

WOW we really stirred the pot on this one. Almost like who shot Kennedy, grassy knoll, CIA. But who cares. Everyone is entitled to there consperisy therory. I was into gun collecting for a while and in alot of books when it came to rare varients and odd ones it said at the bottoms of the listing "Beware of fakes" or "Often reproduced" I haven't seen anything like that in the train books I read. Maybe the people at "DELETED DUE TO LIABILTY" little joke their HAHA did what I said early maybe some one wanted a 682 but not the price and they converted 681's for them. We all know that unless we buy a trains brand new we usauly get them when the origanal owner has gone to the Pearly Gates and family members don't know what they have. I have engines I like to call Frankenstiens cause I used what ever I had to get them running. Now my wife doesn't know this and if one day she sells them as far as she knows they're original. Any way we all try to get the trains as cheap as possible by trying to put up the show that we're really not that interested in it, it's not quite what we're looking for or it's in worse shape than we think it's in. Thats the fun of the hobby.

[bfskinner]

Deputy,

No offense, but your latest post is so lame that I can't stop laughing. Rumors are very difficult to squelch, and I'd wager that "trainsandmusic" and "cwburfle" have at least partially bought into yours, along with who knows how many others who have had the good sense to remain on the sidelines. Your original post warning about the "press pin" was useful and informative; the stuff about "Madison Hardware?" or "some other company that used their name" was, in my opinion, ill-advised. What you appear to have implied is not a simple mechanical adjustment, but rather a conspiracy by an individual or corporation intended to defraud. Never mind my "lawyer's briefcase," but perhaps you'd do well to read up on the finer points Libel and Slander law. You still haven't revealed the source of the "info I [you] read" as far as I can tell. Be advised that my thoughts are both friendly and free. I sincerely hope that the next lawyer you encounter isn't working for Mr. Kughn....

[Deputy]

I suggest you look at my original post concerning the faking of the 682. I posted Madison Hardware? I don't know if it was them or some other company that used their name. That's why I put the ? after the name. All I know is there are a LOT more 682 locos floating around than were originally made and the info I read said Madison hardware was the source. And you can add 2671 tenders with lights in the back to the list of fakes done by SOME company using spare parts. Please put away your lawyer's briefcase. This is much ado about ancient history. The facts are the fakes were made and sold to the public as something they WEREN'T at a considerable hike in price. It may have been done with the blessing of the company or by individuals on their own. Actually, I agree with PhilaKnight. I don't give two squirts if my 682 is a fake or the real deal. I paid what I consider is a reasonable amount for it and I am happy. Did the REAL Madison Hardware do the fakes? Was it just rebel employees doing it to make some quick profits? Or was it endorsed by the company bosses. I doubt we will ever know the truth. I am done with this discussion. It is going nowhere and will only result in someone getting mad. Have a nice day

Dep 

 

[bfskinner]

Deputy,

The company known as Madison Hardware was in New York. There was never a genuine hardware store in Michigan called Madison Hardware. Richard Kughn moved 16 truckloads of stock (Lionel trains and parts) from the once-famous but then newly defunct (as of July '89) Madison Hardware in New York to a warehouse in Detroit down near the river. Said warehouse was never a hardware store or "company" in any meaningful sense of the word, despite the use of the transplanted name "Madison Hardware." It operated for a few years primarily as a mail-order parts outlet; sort of Richard Kughn's "attic." Therefore anything negative that you assert about it will land directly at the feet of Richard Kughn himself.

I don't claim to know everything that went on in that warehouse, but once again I would suggest that you be sure of your facts before besmirching one of Richard Kughn's personal enterprises -- especially after all that he has done for Lionel and toy train fans everywhere.

If I am wrong I apologize, but I don't think so. I challenge you to find anyone who ever bought a hammer or pair of pliers from the Madison Hardware "COMPANY" (your term) of 1915 Fort Street, Detroit; or who will swear (or affirm) that the staff there modified 681's and deliberately misrepresented them as 682's in order to increase profits. Please be specific about your sources of information. Your move. 

 

[PhilaKnight]

Just a little advise I use myself when I'm on E-Bay. Believe none of what you read and only half of what you see. When looking at something I just don't get my hopes up and just envison the worst and when it comes your not as disapponted. But changing a 681 t a 682 is it really worth it all the time and aggravation. Plus if lionel made them small like on the real thing how many 682's would be missing them or have them broken off. Myself still looking for a nice 671 but if I was looking for a turbine with a 682 look and didn't care about being original just to have the look of a moving part I would try to convert A 681 but would label it as a conversion.

[Deputy]

bfskinner: Nobody is calling any individual a crook or scam artist. But when a COMPANY engages in a deception in order to make a profit, and being a big turbine fan I have heard of more than one instance of Madison Hardware doing this conversion, then I am not going to worry a whole lot about calling that company what it was.

[bfskinner]

Short history:

In the beginning there was Joshua LIONEL Cowen and shortly thereafter there was Madison Hardware, which became a New York institution, famous for LIONEL train sales and service. Often they were able to improvise a custom solution to a patron's needs.

Eventually LIONEL went into the toilet and Richard Kughn saved it. He also saved Madison Hardware, moving 16 tractor-trailer loads (one source calculates 320 tons!) of LIONEL parts and equipment from New York to Detroit. Now Richard Kughn has largely (or completely) divested himself of his interest in LIONEL, and auctioned away the remaining Madison Hardware stock and closed it down, after nearly 100 years of exemplary service in two cities. I was able to find parts there that I could not find anywhere else. Personally, I miss the place.

Some of the employees of the Detroit incarnation (at least) are still alive. At least one is a member of this and/or the other 3-rail forum. One might consider using a little restraint  when calling these folks crooks and scam artists, especially when it is obvious that "one" doesn't know much history. Just my humble opinion, of course.

[Deputy]

A picture is worth a thousands words and theories. This is the ONLY correct positioning of the oiler linkage on the 682 Turbine:

 

 

 

[Anonymous]

Hi The picture is correct if the oil linkage rod was pointing forward when the train went around a curve the likage rod  would knock off the front wheels  Thanks

[Deputy]

Hmmmm...lots of 681 turbines on E-bay just begging for a 682 conversion.

I'm tempted to try it just one time to see how it turns out. Of course, I would NEVER try and deceive anyone by selling it as a real 682.  

If you do, once it changes hands a couple of times, someone will probably claim that Madison Hardware made the conversion.

LOL...or they'll claim it as "original".  Maybe I'll just scribe "converted to 682 by Deputy" on the inside of the boiler shell.

Dep

 

 

[cwburfle]

Hmmmm...lots of 681 turbines on E-bay just begging for a 682 conversion.

I'm tempted to try it just one time to see how it turns out. Of course, I would NEVER try and deceive anyone by selling it as a real 682.  

If you do, once it changes hands a couple of times, someone will probably claim that Madison Hardware made the conversion.

[Deputy]

Hmmmm...lots of 681 turbines on E-bay just begging for a 682 conversion.

I'm tempted to try it just one time to see how it turns out. Of course, I would NEVER try and deceive anyone by selling it as a real 682.  

[Deputy]

As I had previously posted, the part number for the wheel with the special stud is 682-11. The rear wheels would use a standard 681 wheel, which was probably a 681-11.

Ahhh...I see it now. Thanks!!!

[cwburfle]

As I had previously posted, the part number for the wheel with the special stud is 682-11. The rear wheels would use a standard 681 wheel, which was probably a 681-11.

[Deputy]

Mike: Here's the one I won on E-bay.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=008&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=180100606635&rd=1&rd=1

That is the one I had to correct the linkage on. I was initially disappointed, but I'm starting to grow fond of it as I get her in shape.

Jim: It appears the stud is longer on the 682 so that the oiler linkage will fit on.

cwburfle: Is the wheel with the longer stud available???? part #??

dep 

 

[cwburfle]

The stud is longer than a standard stud and is keyed to hold the linkage in proper position.

[Jumijo]

Let me put it this way: there is a reason that Lionel sold the wheel with the stud already in place, and did not sell the stud seperately. Still, a determined person with the correct tools could do it.

So the question now is does 682-11W flanged wheel w/white rim LIM  come with the stud installed? I'm guessing yes.

Dep

Dep, the valve gear linkage is held onto the wheel by the same bolt that secures the drive rod. It's offset so that it will move as the wheel turns. See a picture at the link below:

682 Valve Gear Linkage

[ezmike]

Hey Dep, way off topic, but is that the Turbine from ebay you posted about a while back that "disappointed" you when you opened the box. It looks pretty darn good to me. I have to agree with you that the "extra" linkage adds something to an otherwise plain wheel setup on the turbine.

Enjoy it!

Mike

[Deputy]

Let me put it this way: there is a reason that Lionel sold the wheel with the stud already in place, and did not sell the stud seperately. Still, a determined person with the correct tools could do it.

So the question now is does 682-11W flanged wheel w/white rim LIM  come with the stud installed? I'm guessing yes.

Dep

[cwburfle]

Let me put it this way: there is a reason that Lionel sold the wheel with the stud already in place, and did not sell the stud seperately. Still, a determined person with the correct tools could do it.