Lionel RS-3 dual motor conversion?

[Ennex9100]

I've always loved the Lionel RS-3's, great simple engines (and affordable, lol).   Did a TMCC conversion to a single-motor Southern Pacific RS-3 about 10 years ago.  Installed Railsounds and speaker into a 2nd one, then slaved it to the first unit with the TMCC board.  They run pretty smooth together, but never thought to add weight as others here pointed out.  Most I've tried was a 6-car consist, worked well.  I have the new John Deere RS-3 as well, and agree it's a limited puller.  But my 4x8 layout is limited to 3-4 car trains anyway, so not that big a deal for me.

Going to do a TMCC conversion on a dual-motor UP RS-3 #8805, will let you all know how that goes.

[Michael6268]

I've done that to a few engines.  That is a Lionchief engine so you would need to solder chokes on each side of the motor and then I recomend wiring the motor in series.  Make sure to check the direction of motor rotation when you do.  You have to wire the new truck opposite the polarity of the existing truck.

[krazykatz911]

I know this is an old thread,  but I bought a Lionel John Deere RS-3 train set for my son for Christmas.   The issue is that it has trouble with traction and slows badly if over 4-5 cars.   I would love to install another motorized Truck assembly.    Lionel sells them $35.    Anyone get this to work?    

Also, how do you take apart the RS-3 in order to do the wiring?

[M. Mitchell Marmel]

This palaver interests me greatly, as the Crocodile uses a one-lung RS-3 chassis and has some difficulty getting out of its own way.  Are powered trucks still available from Lionel?

Mitch

[FJ and G]

removing the wheels to place the gears on would seem like a chore. Here's my dummy RS-3, which I've designated as a load until I have more time to figure it all out

 

 

[lionelsoni]

Wikipedia has some pictures of potentiometers that may be close enough to help you identify yours:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potentiometer

 

[RS3hostler]

I noticed the same thing. The Lionel RS-3 horn is so quiet it can barely be heard above the noise of other trains running. I called the dealer and he told me the sound board may have an adjustment called a potentiometer, which will adjust the volume. Unfortunately I have no idea what it looks like. Apparently it can be adjusted with a precision screw driver. You might want to take it to a service center and have them make the adjustment. Let me know if you have any luck.

Henry

[Jumijo]

I just purchased a Lionel NYC RS-3 this weekend ($80 brand new). I love it! It pulls fine and the paint and graphics are excellent. My only complaint is that the horn is a little too quiet. Is there any way to boost the volume?

Jim 

[cnjcomp]

I just looked at the dummy truck for my RS-3 and it does not have,nor does it have grooves to add traction tires to it.  The new motorized truck from Lionel was in the $30-$35.00 price range including shipping. Call Lionel parts and give them the Catalog number for your RS-3.  The trucks are available in several colors including gray for the UP RS-3.  Installation is a snap, and it is the best investment you can make for your RS-3.  If you are so inclined, it is possible to order the old style metal frame and handrails to replace the plastic one on your RS-3. I'm toying with the idea of doing this,since this is the engine I let my Grandchildren run.

CNJCOMP

[Garfield]

I added a second powered truck to my Pennsylvania RS3 last year.  Because I wanted traction tires on this truck I called Lionel and simply ordered a new powered truck which was easy to install.

 

Do you hapen to still have that part #? And do you mind me asking how much Lionel charged for that truck?

Thanks again,

Garfield 

[Kooljock1]

I would LOVE to see Lionel up-date the RS-3 with die-cast metal trucks, couplers, & fuel tank, and of course twin CAN motors.

This engine would be a likely candidate for TrainSounds alongside the GP-38.

Jon

[ADCX Rob]

Well both sets of wheels have traction tires,but the one on the front has them on the 2 left-sided wheels and the one in the rear has the traction tires on the right 2 wheels.I also noticed that the front motor truck has the gears facing to the left and the rear motor truck has the gears facing toward the right side frame of the power truck.All I can say is that the addition of the second power truck dramatically improved the pulling power of the loco.20-25 cars of mixed vintage and manufacterer are no problem with this Lionel RS-3. This was a very worthwhile improvement.

Well, it looks like you're good to go!  As the front & rear power trucks are identical, the traction tires(& gear wheels too) will always alternate to the other side  when the truck is faced the other way.  Having all wheels powered, switching the unpowered truck from dead weight to helping out, makes a significant difference!  It's all good!

Rob 

[philo426]

Well both sets of wheels have traction tires,but the one on the front has them on the 2 left-sided wheels and the one in the rear has the traction tires on the right 2 wheels.I also noticed that the front motor truck has the gears facing to the left and the rear motor truck has the gears facing toward the right side frame of the power truck.All I can say is that the addition of the second power truck dramatically improved the pulling power of the loco.20-25 cars of mixed vintage and manufacterer are no problem with this Lionel RS-3. This was a very worthwhile improvement.

[cnjcomp]

I added a second powered truck to my Pennsylvania RS3 last year.  Because I wanted traction tires on this truck I called Lionel and simply ordered a new powered truck which was easy to install. The original dummy truck has no option to add tires to the wheels and I felt that  adding a motor to a truck assembly that would just slip wouldn't work very well.  On a level grade my RS3 will pull fifteen modern box cars with no problems.  PS, I didn't add any weight to the engine. 

[otftch]

A lot of people don't like the truck motored diesels.Except for the wobble problem which I fix with two small foam pads above each truck I like them.I even took two of them and and convereted two old Atlas "O" scale FM's with them.I cut a Lionel Alco (with metal frame) and spliced in a center piece to the right dimensions to which I added the center frame from the Atlas diesel.The Atlas body mounts to four projections on the fuel tank thus I used this part.I used two Lionel RS-3 trucks and 14 Ounces of wieght,.The engine pulls a dummy and fifteen passenger cars (Lionel shorties) with no problem.This conversion is three years old and is run constantly.I can't get my photos to uplaod to this site but there are three photos at:

                           http://community.webshots.com/user/otftch

                          Under My Motive Power,photos # 89,89a and 89b

                                                       Ed

[chuck]

The NW-2 unit with the 1994/1995 Navy set had a single motor drive.  Second truck, non powered, was identical except it was missing the motor and the "missing" gears and pal nut.  The non powered truck was equipped with traction tires.  I did not have to pull the wheels or do anything else but add the motor and slip on the missing gears.

[ADCX Rob]

Okay I talked to Tom and he told me that the non-powered truck was identical to the powered truck except forthe deleted gears and motor.The gear-faces were molded into the back of the metal drive wheels,so all that he had to do was install the gears and motor,along with a bit of wiring.

Well, not quite identical. 

RS3hostler has it right.  You still have no traction tires on your newly motorized power truck, which will cause havoc with series wired motors(it would be like an open differential on ice) and less than satisfactory results in parallel w/o judicious use of weights.

The idler gears, if already on the dummy truck, block access to the two can motor mounting screws and will require removing the wheels from the axles & the idlers from their posts, which you will want to do anyway to get traction-tired gear wheels on the trucks.

Now, to be fair, with a puller, press, & wheel cups, it's a VERY quick job(no quartering required, eg.) which I have done on these locos just to get carpet fuzz out of all the gears & axles for customers as part of regular service.

So, it can be done, it is easy, & is much more economical if you already have all the parts, or if you swap out the entire motor truck assembly.

Rob 

[RS3hostler]

I've been following this discussion with some interest since I recently purchased a Lionel RS-3 [2006 NYC 8226]. I spoke with some experts at Engine House Hobbies and at the Wichita Toy Train Club. I also searched the web for any info I could find.

The Tinplate FAQ states that a loco with dual DC can motors should be able to pull up to 20 cars [Lionel data for my 44-Ton switcher claims 25]. This assumes new cars with needle point bearings. There was no data for locos with a single can motor, but there was a comparison between single and dual AC universals with worm gearing. A single Pulmor AC can haul up to 45 cars while a dual should haul up to 60.

The general consensus among the experts was that a conversion would not be worth the cost and would almost certainly void the warranty. My RS-3 does have geared axles on the dummy truck and pinions for the extra drive gears, but the wheels would have to be turned to accept traction tires. A better solution, I think, would simply be to purchase a second RS-3 and double head them. If you thought a conversion still worthwhile after the warranty had expired, you could swap out the trucks and have one powered RS-3 and a dummy. You could then leave the rest of the guts in the dummy RS-3 or canabalise them for spare parts.

I have also run several comparison test runs with my RS-3 and 44-Ton. If anyone is interested I will post them here.

PS: Website for Tinplate FAQ Part 4 is:

http://www.spikesys.com/Modelrr/faq4.html

The relevant info is about halfway down the page.

[lionelsoni]

The series-parallel switch would work just fine.  In fact, this is what prototype Diesel-electrics do.  The technical name for it is "transition".  Originally it was done manually; then later automatic transition came along.  With four traction motors, there are three possible configurations, but usually only two are used.  For switchers, the motors are all in series at low speeds and series-parallel at higher speeds.  For road locomotives, series-parallel at low speeds and all in parallel at high speeds.

[Garfield]

Thanks for the part numbers and advice.

I would guess one could install a dpdt switch and have parallel/series switchabaitly ala the K-line MP-15?

If i get around to doing it I will just wire in series, my layout will be pretty small if I ever get healthy enough to build it.

Thanks again 

[lionelsoni]

Wiring the motors in parallel is easy.  Just run a wire from each terminal of the original motor to one terminal of the new motor.  If the trucks try to run in opposite directions, swap the two wires.

Wiring in series, for low-speed operation, is not much harder.  Remove the wire from one terminal of the original motor and connect the wire instead to one terminal of the new motor.  Then run a wire between the now-unconnected terminals of the two motors.  Again, if the direction is wrong, swap the two connections to the new motor.

[chuck]

Motor part number is 8008-105

Drive Gear is 8010-116 (need two)

Cluster Gear 8040-118 (need one)

Palnut 8960-52 (need one)

Palnut is a press on retainer that goes on the shaft of the cluster gear which is actually a paired gear that mates to the pinion on the motor staft and the drive gears that mate to the gears on the back of the wheels.

Sources:

Brasseur Electric Trains in Saginaw, MI.  Very nice folks to deal with.

http://www.traindoctor.com/service/service.asp

Toy Train Parts in Kentucky.  Also very nice and professional folks to deal with.

http://www.trainexchange.com/ttp.htm 

I am looking for an article on wiring the RS-3 motors in parallel and possibly a constant lighting circuit.  When/If I find them, I'll post that as well. 

[philo426]

Okay I talked to Tom and he told me that the non-powered truck was identical to the powered truck except forthe deleted gears and motor.The gear-faces were molded into the back of the metal drive wheels,so all that he had to do was install the gears and motor,along with a bit of wiring.

[sulafool]

My experience matches Brianel's; haven't seen a dummy truck that came with gears yet...altho they do have geared wheels on the axles.

Where is the friggin' pal nut? On the motor shaft? My pinions are just pressed on... 

[Garfield]

 I purchased a motor with pinion gear, the cluster gear and the palnut.  The drive gears were part of the truck.

 

 

That looks like my truck.  Can you tell me where you bought the motor and gears and or some Lionel Part numbers?

Thanks to evry one for the quick replys.

[chuck]

(3) Any thoughts about whether going to TMCC from conventional might also help?

No, TMCC will not affect the performance.

These are photo's of the trucks from a RS-3 from 1988-89 and an NW-2 circa 1994-1995.  Both use the horizontal can motors.  I didn't have to pull the wheels to add the second motor to the NW-2.  I purchased a motor with pinion gear, the cluster gear and the palnut.  The drive gears were part of the truck.

 

 

[steinmike]

Guys:

So the cure for the performance problems with my two-motor RS-3 is to:

(1) Add 5.5 to 6 oz of weight either in the vicinity of the fuel tank which is probably the most convenient location or split up the weight (I have .5 oz weights with adhesive backing) so that the weight is added as close to the trucks as possible.

(2) If low speed performance is a problem, wire the motors in series.  I'll probably do this on a "before and after" basis and post the results back regarding any change in voltage for a given speed.

(3) Any thoughts about whether going to TMCC from conventional might also help?

This is the great thing about the forum, you really get the benefit of other folks experience in getting the most out of your trains, thanks!

Mike

[brianel027]

Lionel has been using the same basic design on these trucks since the late 1980's when the truck mounted DC can motored locos became the norm. I have yet to see an engine that was advertised with one powered truck and one dummy truck ever have the necessary gears included on the dummy truck. Remember, the dummy truck is there to save money and reduce costs, so they're not going to put gears in something with no motor. This was true of Lionel and K-Line locos with single motors.

The center pins that are part of the inner truck frame assembly are so close to the wheels that there's no way to get the gears in without removing the wheels. I suppose it is possbile that the wheels had enough play in the axle mounting that you might be able to wedge them in. But you still need to pull the wheels because the mounting holes where the motor screws in are directly behind the gears.

Also remember that when Lionel blew out their parts inventory years ago, many bought bulk loads of unusual parts and partial assemblies. It is entirely possible that there are dummy trucks out there with the plastic gears already in them. But you still need to remove this to screw the motor into place.

I do also suppose it is possible for a dealer to do this job quickly if he has all the proper tools ready on a workbench with a soldering guy on and ready to go. But getting everything apart can or could take close to 10 minutes depending on the loco. And provided there are pickup wires already in place and the Mabuchi motor has pre-soldered on lead wires. If these things are done, add in more time. It's certainly taken me longer than 10 minutes to do the job with hand tools and a hand held wheel puller. The K-Line S-2's for example have more to remove, like the circuit board and the weight screwed in over the truck pin and "C" clamp.

The wiring is easy for someone who has done this before. I'd was going on the side on sure, rather than sorry given inexperience. There was a thread recetnly from a guy who said the same colored lead wires were soldered backwards from truck to truck - ie: one truck with red on the center and the other with red on the wheels. If you assume they're correct and don't pull the motors out to see where the wires are (since many times the wires are soldered out of view from under the motor), that will slow the job down.

I was also add that some years ago I was talking to a Lionel tech who I knew on a first name basis, who is no longer with the company. I was inquring on some parts for some of the then new Lionel stuff coming from China. He told me not to assume anything - that one part would fit in something else - as more design work was being done overseas and that he didn't know what would work until the products from China came in.

As a general rule, whenever someone tells me something will take say 5 minutes, I'll assume 10 minutes. Not trying to be a pessimist, but a realist... just factoring in the unexpected, which can often happen. If it actually takes 5 minutes, I count it as a blessing.

I'm not discrediting anyone here. But I've done this job many many times and it's never taken a simple 10 minutes.

[sulafool]

Yeah, it must be different trucks. Mine has no pal nuts. The intermediate gears are retained by the wheels and pinion gear only. Less parts=cheaper to make I suppose, and to the Big Fiery Place with ease of service!