TMCC/DTS basic set-up questions

[yallaen]

I tried to do a search on the forum..but I could not make heads or tails of the information. So, please pardon my ignorance..but here goes:

I've decided to go the modern route vs getting an old ZW to power my trains. I like the ability to operate engines independently w/o blocks, etc. Hey, go figure, I'm a conductor..I make trains move for a living lol...[:D]

So, the ultimate question arises...TMCC or DTS? I'm thinking the Lionel version. So, what do I need to purchase to make my train(s) go? I'm looking at purchasing a new Lionel engine with sounds, etc. BUT, I also have my old Lionel stuff (post-war) that I want to use. I think I understand that you can convert the old stuff...but it's kinda complicated...

Anyway, if you can answer the above..I need to know the basics to buy..what I need to buy for converting the old engine, etc. Remember, this is just an "around the room" type setup..but you never know...lol...

I'll be using my TW transformer for accessories..or is that not a good idea?

[dbaker48]

Norm,
As you know everyone has an opinion, and it is only an opinion of very little value. So here goes.
I have many trains from both the "post war era" and the MPC stuff. I had to put them away for about 15 years while I got on with other stuff. Recently got back into it in Dec 2005. As a result I have done the following;

1. Puchased a new Lionel train with TMCC capability, bought the TMCC system, a new ZW transformer. Very happy... New engine is wonderful, TMCC terific, and can run old engines in conventional mode as well. Primary difference convential old trains 1 per track, with remote control. New engines, multiple trains on same track.

2. Discovered MTH and the DCS system. Bought a MTH engine (Big Boy), and DCS system. Wow!! More features, better remote, AND the DCS can run the TMCC engines as well as DCS engines, multiple engines on the same track, at the same time!! Still using the ZW transformer.

3. Upgraded some of my post war Lionel to the TMCC compatible, cost about $150 per engine. Net result, remote capability great, however the overall quality of the engine in my opinion is infererior to what is available today. I think in the future I would rather put the money toward a new engine with the DCS or TMCC capability included. Because, I find the detail and quality of the rest of the engine so much better today.

Finally, I also think the value of MTH as compared to Lionel is greater. Lionel does have a better sounding sound, but the features of the DCS and MTH I think is much better. If I could I wish I would have purchased the MTH Z4000 transformer instead of the Lionel ZW, also.

I now have my MTH Big Boy running around the track with many features looking really great, playing the Orange Blossom Special through the tender, using my sons IPOD.

Have Fun

[Anonymous]

You only NEED DCS to run PS-2 equipped loco's in command mode. DCS will allow control of two variable output channels but the starting voltage is high and you only have 32 speed steps. You are also limited to 180 watts per block in DCS whereas TMCC doesn't have an upper power limit per block as control functions are totally seperate from power. TMCC equipment is avaialble from everyone except Lionel. You can retrofit ANY locomotive AC or DC with TMCC. You can only retrofit flywheel equipped DC can motors for DCS. Z-4000 is an excellent transformer. I can't think of a better way to reprogram PS-1 loco's. To use a Z-4000 as a power supply to a DCS system seems like overkill. You can buy 4 180 bricks for less than the cost of a Z-4000 and have a lot more power available to you.

[yallaen]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chuckn

You only NEED DCS to run PS-2 equipped loco's in command mode. DCS will allow control of two variable output channels but the starting voltage is high and you only have 32 speed steps. You are also limited to 180 watts per block in DCS whereas TMCC doesn't have an upper power limit per block as control functions are totally seperate from power. TMCC equipment is avaialble from everyone except Lionel. You can retrofit ANY locomotive AC or DC with TMCC. You can only retrofit flywheel equipped DC can motors for DCS. Z-4000 is an excellent transformer. I can't think of a better way to reprogram PS-1 loco's. To use a Z-4000 as a power supply to a DCS system seems like overkill. You can buy 4 180 bricks for less than the cost of a Z-4000 and have a lot more power available to you.

Ok, break that down into English please...PS-2 in my world is a playstation 2 by Sony...
I know the z-4000 is MTH's version of the ZW...but I've heard MTH is going bye bye

[yallaen]

Also..what about accessories, switches, etc being operated with the TMCC?
Do I need to buy a ZW? I was going to buy a rehabed ZW from the 60's...but if I don't need it...

[Anonymous]

PS-2 stands for ProtoSounds 2. This is the second generation sound/control system used by MTH. PS-1 is the first generation sound system used by MTH and was an OEM system designed by another company (QSI) to MTH's specifications. It did not include independant locomotive control. DCS is the hardware/software system used to control PS-2 equipped locomotives (along with PS-1 and other conventional control engines). There was almost a two year lag bewteen the release of PS-2 and DCS. Most of the features/functions of a PS-2 locomotive can be accessed in conventional mode. DCS allows you to control locomotives in a fixed track voltage environment with independant control of locomotives on the same track or operating in the same power block.

Both DCS and TMCC allow for control of accessories by use of (guess what) accessory control modules. DCS calls the AIU (Auxiliary Interface Units). TMCC has these devices broken down into subcategories that can be highly specialized. The basic component under TMCC to control switches/accessories are SC-2 (Switch Controller 2) or an ASC (Accessory/Switch Controller). The SC-2 also controlls accessories despite it's name.

Z-4000 is MTH's version of a ZW. You have a number of options under TMCC for remote control of conventional loco's. Almost any power supply with fast acting fuses and enough amps can used for straight TMCC equipped loco's. If you want to run conventional loco's you have several choices of control devices. The top of the line are the Track Power Controllers. These are what I use. They come in two "flavors", 300 watt and 400 watt. They have extremely fine control of power steps and good low voltage starting levels (ak 1.5 volts). There are "macro buttons" to control PS-1 and PS-2 engines in conventional mode. You could also use a modern era ZW. These have the equivalent of four improved PowerMasters built in. 32/64/96 speed steps and they get along with PS-1/PS-2 electronics. You can use the original PowerMasters. These don't play well with PS-1 engines. The waveform output is not fully compatible with the PS-1 system.

[nblum]

Chuck has explained the nitty gritty details, but let me amplify a little. If you plan, as you suggest to control only TMCC locos in command mode (plus perhaps older Lionels converted to TMCC), you can get by with any transformer with sufficient power to control the number of locomotives involved (if you don't have a transformer the new ZW makes most sense in this setting rather than the Z4000). You can certainly get by with the TW if it's working for you now. It's also OK for the accessories.

If you go with command (TMCC) locos only, the only other thing you will then need are a TMCC cab-1 and command base. If you plan to control your old locomotives in conventional mode prior to upgrading them to TMCC, you can use the new ZW's handles or the cab-1 to control them handson or by remote control. The new ZW can work by remote control with the cab-1 from the TMCC system.

The TPCs or Powermaster also provide for remote control in conventional mode, and if you are not buying a new ZW, these may make sense to consider in conventional mode.

The MTH Z4000 and/or DCS system makes sense only if you plan to also operate MTH PS1 and/or PS2 locos (the PS1s are no longer made, but some are still on dealer shelves).

You can always easily add one system to the other if you decide to use both MTH and non-MTH locos, whichever way you start. It's a lot easier to demonstrate than describe.

[yallaen]

Neil..thanks very much..as well as Chuckn...but Chuckn really got into the nitty gritty..and I have NO IDEA what the new stuff entails. I'm used to the old ZW..and my old style Lionel. But, I'm thinking of still getting some old Lionel stuff as collector stuff..but get some of the new age'd stuff for showing off to company, etc.

So, bottom line: What do I need to order to get running? The TW will be used for track switches and accessories. I'll need a main transformer to run the engines. New ZW? Old ZW? PLUS, I want the TMCC stuff...so, what do I tell the place where I buy this stuff what I want?? It's basically 15x20 room, double track around the perimeter..maybe a yard in another room for storage. MAYBE room to grow later..but that's it for now.

I'm dumb..tell me! OOOPSS...gotta run...catching a train!

[Anonymous]

A new ZW plus a CommandBase/Cab-1 combo will allow you to run TMCC loco's in command mode and control up to four blocks/power districts under conventional control with walk around throttle capability. You can also add two additional PH bricks to get your total power capacity up to 720 watts. If you only need two taps for train control, you can use the others for accessories. Remote switch control/accessories can be handled by SC-2's. Each SC-2 can hande six switches or twelve accessories or four switches and four accessories

BTW, There is supposed to be an announcement regarding the second generation of TMCC soon.

Also, this stuff is a little complicated. It's not brain surgery or rocket science but it's not like the TV remote or the garage door opener. There is a tremendous amount of flexibility in all of the train control systems (DCC,TMCC,DCS) and it takes a bit of time to get used to it.

[eZAK]

Yallaen,
Here is a good place to start; http://www.lionel.com/GettingStarted/Findex.cfm

As chuckn said you will need;

#6-32930 ZW and PowerHouse Power Supply Set (2-180w PH)

# 6-12969 TrainMaster Command Set

#6-22980 TMCC SC-2 Switch Controller

http://www.lionel.com/Products/Findex.cfm

Use the TW for ACC. only.
You will also need wire(14 & 16 awg), soldering gun, rotory tool, and drill. Along with various hand tools. Good luck!

[Anonymous]

If you want to "practice" using TMCC and find out how it works, go here:

http://www.coilcouplers.com/tmc/tmc.html

[yallaen]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chuckn

If you want to "practice" using TMCC and find out how it works, go here:

http://www.coilcouplers.com/tmc/tmc.html

This was a very good site, and very informative! I guess I don't understand why I would need a ZW if I'm gonna have powerpacks...also, can't I use the older ZW's..I've heard the new ones are junk. The older ones have more oompf don't they?

[Anonymous]

"I don't understand why I would need a ZW if I'm gonna have powerpacks...also, can't I use the older ZW's..I've heard the new ones are junk. The older ones have more oompf don't they?"

Old ZW was built like a tank BUT,

a) It's total output is limited to 180 watts over all four channels
b) It uses an old style thermal breaker that will not trip in time to protect modern electronics
c) It has no capability to control conventional locomotives remotely

New ZW

a) can control up to 180 watts per output channel if you use 180 watt bricks for each input
b) supports fast acting breakers
c) Does allow for remote control of power levels via the CAB-1 when used with a TMCC command base.

New unit looks like old one from outside but guts are completely different. Most of the mass from the PW units was in the main stepdown core. This has been moved to the "bricks". If you want a newer ZW to "feel" like the older ones, you will have to attach it to the table, it just doesn't have the mass.

PW ZW is a fine piece of machinery and a well conditioned one cab be adapted for use with moern electronics by adding in fast acting breakers or quick blow in line fuses. Trouble is they are almost as expensive as the new units (on a cost per watt basis) and can't do some of the things the new ones do.

[dbaker48]

Been following the thread, I don't mean to be arguementative, but...... If you look at the systems trying to be unbiased the MTH DCS systems sure seems stronger to me.
- Don't have to purchase as many components as TMCC
- DCS will run all engines, Convential, TMCC and MTH's PS2. Whereas the TMCC will NOT run PS2 other than conventional mode.
- Remote on DCS is more informative, and much more controls available. Adjust smoke volume, about 5 different idle sounds, 10 different running sounds, and programmable running sounds, doing yur own dispatching and arrival/departure announcements, list goes on and on.

DCS is a little more difficult to learn, just like learning a computer is more difficult than learning a calculator.. But their is an advantage.

Most hobby stores carry the DVD put out by one of the major hobby magazines that specicializes on DCS and MTH, cost about $20, it is well worth it!!

I have both the TMCC and DCS systems, I'm glad I have both, but I wouldn't do without the DCS. Transformer issues are not critically significant. Both transformers are good, and even the old xforms are fines with the appropriate fuses.

[nblum]

" I don't mean to be arguementative, but...... If you look at the systems trying to be unbiased the MTH DCS systems sure seems stronger to me."

But not to some other people. It's obviously a matter of personal preference rather than objective fact, and some of us have different preferences and experiences than you do. Let's not get into it in boring detail, but TMCC sure seems more robust, less expensive, and less finicky to me based upon experience with both systems. DCS is only of interest if you must have PS2 locos, which some of us are all too happy to dispense with for reasons such as inferior sound, the rechargeable internal battery that is required, and other factors.

We'll have to see if TMCC II is a significant improvement and what the value to cost/complexity equation is compared with TMCC I and DCS. I've had ten years of TMCC I without hardly a glitch so I'm in the wait and see crowd. But I don't need or want DCS. Everyone's mileage differs in these matters.

[Anonymous]

Don, If you don't own any PS-2 engines, Why would you buy DCS? It's ability to control conventional engines is actually pretty lame, probably it's weakest point. The remote is much more complex and requires that you read the display to perfrom any complex function. I don't have a single remote for any other purpose that requires me to look at it to perform any function.

The TIU and remote can perform many of the advanced functions without additional equipment but the dedicated TMCC components that perform these functions do much better (TPC/AMC/ARC). The ONLY things you can control from the DCS remote are ENGines and even this does not support all TMCC functions. You still need the TMCC remote to set up, program/reprogram locomotives or access advanced features not supported in emulation mode. If I want to control my trains/layout from my computer, I can do that with TMCC. I can't do that with DCS.

If you like MTH products and own a bunch of PS-2 engines, DCS is the only way to control them in command mode. It plays well with TMCC. If you want to run everybodies trains in command mode, you will need both systems. If you don't own any PS-2 loco's, $300 bucks is a lot for second class control of non PS-2 loco's.

[dbaker48]

Chuck,
I agree with you, if you do not own (or never plan to own any PS-2) you certainly wouldn't want DCS.
I am/have been one of Lionels biggest supporters, since 1964. I left my significant involvement with the hobby in the late 80's, for family responsibilites as many people have.

Coming back into the hobby in 2005, I was astonished with what Lionel has accomplished, with product quality AND technical improvements. To the extent that I purchased the Scale Cab Forward, and TMCC, and really enjoy them!

Then upon looking around and seeing other products that are available TODAY, we have so many more choices, and with an open mind, looking and evaluating. I don't think Lionel is the best value. (Pretty bold statement, huh?) And, again just an opinion. But honestly, I do have more control of all my engines (Lionel Conv. Lionel TMCC, Williams, K-Line, RTR, and MTH, with the DCS. I am surprised that the MTH eng has many more features than the Lionel TMCC eng and Cab 1 Remote has) I also can control all my accessories and switches with the DCS including the PW lionel accessories.

My only point is that a "new" person coming in to the hobby, with intention of growing should look at both. Who knows who will survive, I hope both do! Maybe it is just a modern day Flyer vs Lionel question. And not many people would argue the quality level Flyer had.

Great to have choices !!

Sorry, but I can't agree about the $300 bucks for a second class control of non PS-2 locos. We only have 1 PS2, and 2 DCS remotes, 1 TMCC is the TMCC is really the least used. ALL of our TMCC works great with DCS, however none of our MTH will work in TMCC, other than conventional mode.

[nblum]

"We only have 1 PS2, and 2 DCS remotes, 1 TMCC is the TMCC is really the least used. ALL of our TMCC works great with DCS, however none of our MTH will work in TMCC, other than conventional mode."

Am I understanding you correctly that you are basing your opinion on the superiority of DCS over TMCC on the experience of owning 1 PS2 loco and 1 TMCC loco?

[Anonymous]

I would strongly recommend that anyone thinkng of getting into this aspect of he hobby actually try the equipment out at a club or a hobby shop that doesn't have an agenda. Some people don't like the CAB-1 and some people don't like the DCS remote.

The TPC's in my opinion are THE power control devices for conventional or command mode. These devices have incredible power regulating capability (up to 400 watts) and allow for extrememly slow speed operation of conventional trains without built in speed control (80/200/400 speed step). Too bad you can't control them from DCS (even when they are programmed as ENGines).

[nblum]

"I would strongly recommend that anyone thinkng of getting into this aspect of he hobby actually try the equipment out at a club or a hobby shop that doesn't have an agenda. Some people don't like the CAB-1 and some people don't like the DCS remote."

Very sound advice. One of us should have pointed that option out earlier in the discussion. Unfortunately, not everyone has a knowledgeable dealer or club where both systems can be examined handson. But that's by far the most sensible approach since the two systems do pretty much the same things, but with rather different ergonomics and overall approach.

[dbaker48]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chuckn

I would strongly recommend that anyone thinkng of getting into this aspect of he hobby actually try the equipment out at a club or a hobby shop that doesn't have an agenda. Some people don't like the CAB-1 and some people don't like the DCS remote.

Very sound advice!!

When I discovered that trains were able to be run via "remote control", I was really excited!! Then I found this forum, and trying to learn, and get opinions regarding each system, it was initially very confusing. Kinda like alphabet soup. And what belonged to what. Most of the opinions were both are good and ultimatly you probably would end up with both. That seemed a bit extreme and EXPENSIVE. So I decided to error on the side of the known, in my case that was Lionel. When I bought the Cab Forward, I didn't realize it was the top of the line for Lionel, but I was fortunate enough that I could afford it. So, obviously got the TMCC to be able to use all the features of that engine. Even purchased the new ZW with 2 bricks, and the command control. Very happy, couldn't have been happier.

Then........
Went to another train store that had MTH, and began looking at the stuff. When I looked at a "low" end set that was passenger, and compared the quality to one of the cars from the Polar Express, I was shocked with the difference. That got my attention to look a little closer. I subsequently ran in to a real deal on a Rail King, Big Boy, new, for less than $500. Given that the big boy was smaller, it was great to have it. Ran it in the convential mode using TMCC. Then got the DCS and the Big Boy features are all available. When I look at those to engines, I don't see $1000 benefit of the Cab Forward.

Yes, I'm basing my opinions on those 2 engines. The DCS runs the cab forward remotely as if I had the Cab1 Remote in my hand. I can run multiple engines on the same track remotely at the same time (both MTH and TMCC), without having to use convential mode.

Beyond the Lionel Cab Fwd w/TMCC, and the MTH Big Boy w/DCS, I am running
Lionel Post War and MPC in conventional mode,
1 Lionel Ill Central ABA that I upgrade to TMCC,
2 K-Line Diesels equipped with TMCC,
1 Beep that I upgraded to TMCC
And they are all easier to control with the DCS. Primarily because I can look and see which engine I am currently "talking too". There are designated button for every feature on the DCS as the Cab1 has.

I didn't like the aesthetics of the Z4000 xfmr, and opted for the ZW, even though the Z4000 tells you the voltage and amps. So I simply put gauges on the ZW and that was resolved. There are a couple of Z4000 features that are nice, being able to turn it OFF, not just power down. And probably most important a true sine wave as oppossed to digial.

The other advantage I like, (which I hear is going to be in TMCC II) is that with the LCD display I can see which engine I operating, and "click" any of the others I have on the menu, and jump to that engine, without having to remember the "program address" for the other engine and key it in. Thus, I can actually control more engines without so many cockpit errors.

No question the Cab Fwd has a much better sounding whistle, and voice activity, but detail is quite similiar. Also the MTH has the teather which Lionel doesn't.

The most important thing however is having FUN, and Enjoy them All. And I honestly don't know how anyone would be dissatisfied, with either. I just prefer the DCS and plan my expansion plans in that area since it is so versitle.

I certainly hope that I am not irritating anyone. But, I have also found that a lot of folk remain "traditionalists" and don't want to accept anything other than what they are familiar with. Take it from an "OLD MAN" being flexible and an open perspective can be rewarding.

[Anonymous]

Another thing to consider (price-wise) is all the total components needed to activate accessories, switches and to record and playback operating sessions. DCS has the record/playback feature built into it, TMCC requires an additional purchase of an ARC (list $100) for record/playback. To activate switches, and accessories in DCS you will need to buy and AIU (list $100) that can handle 10 accessories and 10 switches, TMCC would also require an additional item called an SC-2 (list $100) but it only handles 4 switches and 4 accessories.

Yes TMCC is cheaper for the base system but when you start adding on all the different components to it to get an actual comparison to DCS with an AIU, as far as what it can do and the number of accessories and switches it can handle, then it’s really not any less expensive.

Another price decision to consider is that almost, if not all new MTH engines (steam and diesels) have PS2 (the command control) with speed control that can be purchased for under $250 and up. Lionel usually puts TMCC with speed control in their higher priced engines, a diesel may be had for around $350 and up, and steam engines are generally more $$ with both TMCC and speed control.

I know when I started asking about the two systems on the various forums when I first started out it launched a war about what system is better than the other and the thread actually got deleted. (Similar to what this one is trending toward) I also suggest trying both and if possible go to several different shops if you can because there are those that will try to push one on you over another. This bias is sometimes just an honest preference but it is also (for lack of better terms) a political type thing; I soon found out that some on the forums have a bias toward one manufacturer over another, so try to read between the lines on some of the advice and soon you will see what I mean.

Try both, do your research on what each system can do that you think is important to you. I would suggest getting both base systems if you have both TMCC and PS2 engines, and using DCS with an AIU for accessories and switches since they are cheaper (sort of) than the Lionel version to activate switches and accessories.

But then TMCC II is going to be announced soon so all this could be irrelevant if it will operate both!

[nblum]

Don, you're not aggravating anyone, you're just expressing honestly your preferences. As Chuck noted, despite the fact that DCS cannot control some TMCC functions, some folks like yourself just prefer the DCS handheld because of the display or ergonomics. And if you have PS2 locos, DCS is the only way to control them in command mode. Simple as that.


One should note that for particularly big or complex DCS layouts, you're going to need to plan on multiple TIUs and more complex wiring/troubleshooting than with TMCC. This additional expense and effort isn't a deal breaker for many people, and isn't an issue with the average size layout (say 15 x 10 or smaller) with a few loops of track, and no complex yards or such. But it's a reality.

In the mean time, the original questions have been answered I believe :).

[Anonymous]

I would like to know what equipment I would need to get running with the DCS MTH system. What would I need to buy (starting from scratch, nothing) to run an MTH with the PS2. I like the lionel stuff but the engines just seem to be more $$ if you want all the bells and whistles compared to the equivelant in an mth and they are beautiful as well.

[spankybird]

Besides track, transformer (pure sin wave), PS2 engine, DCS set (TIU and remote), and some wire to connect the trasformer to the TIU and the TIU to the track.

You may wi***o add a fix power supply to the TIU and if you are using an older transformer, add some fast acting fuses.

I would also recommand picking up the OGR tape on DCS.

tom

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by spankybird

Besides track, transformer (pure sin wave), PS2 engine, DCS set (TIU and remote), and some wire to connect the trasformer to the TIU and the TIU to the track.

You may wi***o add a fix power supply to the TIU and if you are using an older transformer, add some fast acting fuses.

I would also recommand picking up the OGR tape on DCS.

tom

[:)] Hi tom .. How do I go about it getting one of those OGR tapes on DCS. Felix

[Anonymous]

What do you mean by (pure sin wave) and what is the OGR tape. THANKS!!!

[Anonymous]

The output of newer transformers based on electronic switching power supplies do not always produce a classic sine waves like a Post War step down transformers. The modifies waveform's of the newer transformers do allow for some operational tricks along the lines of the modified waveform output used in HO power packs. The issue with "pure sine wave output" is that some QSI sound systems will not function properly without a pure sine wave, e.g. PS-1 electronics.

[spankybird]

This comes in both VHS and DVD

http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=60-1191

http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=60-1190
You can click on Find It icon to see who has it in stock or order it from 'O Guage Magazine web store at http://www.ogaugerr.com

tom

[dbaker48]

Chuck, Good description now even I understand the issue, I think. (If I do not have any QSI or PS-1 inventory I shouldn't have a problem, right? Using a new ZW)

Tom - Great advice, I have viewed that video a half dozen time, and still find it intriguing, well worth the $20.