More problems - Fastrack/CW-80/Remote Switches

[Anonymous]

Do not try to "tie" two CW-80's together like that. If you need to break down the layout into "power districts", you can feed one district off of one transformer and the other off of the other transformer.

There are devices that work the way you described, like the TPC's that will accept two to three powerhouse bricks to drive them. Big difference is that the bricks are raw step down transformers with no controls. The TPC provides the control. Your CW-80's have the controls built in. You would have to exactly match the transformer outputs to prevent problems like current flowing in the "wrong" direction. e.g. one transformer is set at 14 volts, other at 12. There is a 2 volt difference and there will be back current flow from the higher voltage unit to the lower voltage unit. On a traditional step down transformer this would result in some heat build up. A switching power supply will behave very erraticaly under these circumstances.

[Anonymous]

Indeed, the problem may not be with the transformer, but I still suspect that it is. That's why I suggest trying another transformer first, to see if that eliminates any trouble you may be having. If you can at least borrow one temporarily, that wil save a lot of other testing and fixes because it will narrow things down to the primary culprit.

I know that the CW80 I have did strange things with locomotives of various makes, and I just couldn't rely on consistent, reliable performance. Changed it out for an MTH Z1000, and all the problems disappeared. Ditto for when I tried an old Lionel 1033.

[Anonymous]

hobo79,

I have ZERO experience with anything associated with TMCC, and I will not offer advice on anything with which I am unfamiliar.

What I have had considerable experience with is the CW-80 running conventionally: Post A to center rail; Post U-under-A to an outside rail; 5 amp inline fuse, and at least one 14 or 18 volt lamp connected somewhere such that is is effectively across the center and outside rails; that is, so that it operates as a constant small load on the CW-80. I use illuminated lockons on tubular track, but understand that LIonel makes a special section for FasTrack that contains just such a load. Some folks just use an illuminated caboose. An illuminated passenger car would do also, as long as it is working reliably. I'd put the last two on a siding so as not to interfere with operational testing.

The fast blow fuse is supposed to help protect the transformer and the locomotive from overcurrents. It may or may not do this, but I can substantiate that it's quite good at keeping tigers away. [;)]

The lamp keeps the CW-80 happy and, in some cases at least, makes the cycling of the reversing unit (the "E-unit") more reliable. Without reliable cycling of the reversing unit, manipulating the direction button and the throttle lever on the CW-80 become frustrating experiences.

One thing you probably have noticed is that even when they are working correctly, the throttle and directional control on the CW-80 ramp up slowly; that is, there is a noticible lag between when the direction button (or the throttle lever) is pushed and the appearance of power. This may be causing some confusion. It's a "feature," not a "bug," but some operators do not like it..

Many locos run better in one direction than the other; and certainly it takes more power to start a loco from a standstill than it does to keep it running straight and level. So, sometimes one needs to add a little power when shifting directions, or going up hills, or around curves, etc. Doubtless you know this. My point is, that with the "ramp-up" throttle on the CW-80 you need some experience with it under the best of circumstances. If the reverse unit on the loco is not cycling reliably, control of the train becomes a nightmare.

As far as I can tell from this distance, there are several things going on that are causing your frustration. Why are some cars "shorting" and/or derailing on the switches? Does this only happen when the train approaches the switch from the "V" end with the switch set against the direction of the train's motion. If so, this suggests that the anti-derailing feature (if any -- I don't have any experience with FasTrack either) is not wired correctly or is not getting enough voltage. (This last problem is why many people power their switches with a voltage other than track voltage; but with the CW-80 this opens a whole new can of worms.)

My initial reading of your problems on both forums suggested to me a number of separate and distinct problems, from shorting to derailing, and from possible overloading to e-units not cycling correctly. Combining all these possibilities with some kind of a mix of traditional (postwar) and modern (TMCC) equipment has overloaded my ability to diagnose.

Maybe the CW-80 is at the bottom of some of the problems, but I am not yet persuaded; and I think that people who don't analyze a problem but simply shout "junk the CW" are not doing much of a service to someone like me, for instance: a senior citizen on a broken income.

I am a little worried about the date of manufacture of your CW-80, as there were some problems (supposedly) with a batch produced in 2004, but I have earlier and later models, and -- after hooking them up as I have suggested -- have had zero problems.

Having said all that, let me say EVERYONE eventually wants bigger transformers and more of them, just as everyone who buys a boat sooner or later wants a bigger one. But your CW-80, if it is working correctly, should run a single or dual-motor locomotive and (say) four illuminated passenger cars on level track with no problems. (Ironically, it may do so at such low throttle settings that the switches (turnouts) do not function properly. But, one thing at a time.)

You have clearly shown the ability to consider what is going on and to make the beginnings of logical diagnoses of what is going on. I use the plural, because I think more than one thing is wrong. Clearly this diagnostic process, tedious as it may be, is enhanced by the ability to swap devices in and out, including transformers, and noting what changes occur.

That's what I think you need to do, and will try to help, but it's not easy at a distance. Furthermore, others, like the aforementioned "lionelsoni" and "chuckn" (and some others) are much better at it than I am.

Good luck. You can figure this out.

Feel free to keep asking, but be as specific as you can with what you are using , what you have tried, and what happened.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

One more follow up, and I feel kind of stupid now, but I just ran my Command engines w/out any consist and they almost ran perfect. I just never thought I would need more power on a 5x8' layout. I have about 9 powered accessories and 3 remote swithces. However, I had tried running the trains and consists w/the accessories dissconnected and it didn't make any difference. Like I said, no consist makes a huge difference. Can someone reccomend a transformer? Or should I simply add another CW-80? Can I run two CW-80's in line, i.e., can I splice the A and U cables from each together and then directly into the TMCC lockon? Will this give me 160 watts?

Thanks

Marc

[Anonymous]

wolverine49

Thanks. Sounds like you are saying I simply need a more powerful transformer. That may be the trick. The trains running on command do seem to work better with no consist. As far as my setup and the fuses etc., I have the power running into a TMCC lockon and then to the track. It was my understanding that I wouldn't need the fuses b/c the lockon acts as the circuit breaker. If my trains run well with no consist, do you think in fact I simply need a more powerul transformer?

Marc

[Anonymous]

To add just a little to chuckn's latest point, the PW transformers were rated on the basis of their power draw -- not output. Ostensibly, the modern ones are rated on output. If this is so, the PW Lionel 1033 would only put out about 60 watts pure sine wave to the track, whereas a CW-80 should put out at least 80 in a gawd-only-knows waveform.

In practice, running "conventionally," I find there to be little difference in output. In actual tests my CW-80 will out-pull my 1033, everything else being equal -- but not by all that much.

Both were included with "starter sets" and ought not be expected to handle heavy loads. What's the difference between them under load? Well, in my experience the CW-80 will start blinking it's green pilot light long before it conks out; whereas the 1033 just gets hotter and hotter, potentially cooking the internal insulation until (MAYBE) the old thermal circuit breaker finally opens. (As said previously, I fuse both types, at around 5 amps.)

Which transformer is likely to be running as designed (excluding the circuit breaker) after 50 years? Most likely the 1033.

I agree with chuckn's point that BOTH of these transformers are quite low-powered (read inadequate) for many modern layouts, and some, (certainly including the CW-80) are sensitive to misunderstood instructions and different kinds of equipment and hook-ups.

This is why any logical diagnostic process ought to begin with a back-to-basics approach, in my opinion.

Those of you who have followed my ramblings over the last couple of years might have noticed that I have never advised going out and buying a CW-80. Rather, I have tried to counsel a thorough understanding of the instructions and a little patience with the ones people already own.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

80-90 watts is pretty small unless you are only running basic set and very few accessories. Lionel used to (I mean back in the PW era) make a line of transformers with different power handling cabilities and features. We now have basic starter set units and BOOM, monster supplies in the 360 watt and beyond class (with prices to match).

Waveform output is unlikely to cause the problems you are seeing. The oddball arrangement of the "common" in the CW may be messing up the TMCC signal or worse, creating return current loops and back EMF which switching power supplies do not get along with. Try the setup with the PW unit, try to be careful or place some quick blow in line fuses. My only complaint with most PW supplies are the old style thermal breakers will smoke modern electronics before the thermal breaker trips.

[Anonymous]

I am waiting for my buddy to get back from NY. I am going to borrow one of his ancient Lionel transformers, 90watt I think. I'll let you all know. Strangly I hope you are all right even though I don't reli***he idea of buying a new transformer.
I returned one CW-80 already. My local store owner said the 2005 models and there after work fine, problems resolved. However, when I returned it yesterday the owner wasn't there. His helper is a know it all and you can't tell him anythin. He went in the back and got me another 2004 model CW-80. When I told him what the boss said he didn't want to be bothered and basically said to take it and if that one didn't work we'll try another.

Marc

[Anonymous]

hobo79,

Nothing I have read so far convinces me that the CW-80 is at fault. Of course it's possible, but it's also possilbe the the CW-80 is performing as designed. For example, the blinking and dimming green light is trying to tell you that there is a current-overload or short-circuit somewhere on the layout..

What is needed is a systematic, logical diagnostic process. "Lionelsoni "and "chuckn" and a few others can doubtless help you if you will do this. You need to be systematic and patient, and to avoid changing more than one thing at a time.

First, get everything having to do with "Command Control" out of the circuit. Use only traditional locomotives, with no cars behind them. Take the switches out of the track. Make sure there is at least one small lamp wired across the outputs of the CW-80 as it "doesn't like" zero loads.

Wire a small fast-blow fuse between the transformer and the track. Then start adding items one at a time to see if all is well. (This is a bare-bones outline of the procedure.)

By all means substitute another transformer(s) as part of this process.

If you can get everything to work properly in strict "conventional" operation, then have a whack at some of the fancier stuff.

If, at the end of all this, if you will state that the CW-80 does not appear to be "blown" I will pay shipping charges should you want to get rid of it.

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

I agree with Allan....get rid of the CW-80. I have one currently from the PE set and I am already working on getting a Z-4000 and when I do my CW-80 is getting the boot. The command engines run better from a 'pure-sine wave' transformer like the Z-4000 and the MRC Pure Dual; the CW-80 outputs a 'cropped sine-wave'.

I know from your original post you're not technically minded, but I can bet my money 100% that the CW is the problem. Get rid of it and get a better transformer; I am sure that should solve the issues you're having.

[Anonymous]

Chuckn

The train runs ok in conventional mode, although, as noted one of my conventional engines won't move in reverse unless the power is pushe up into almost full power. Another conventional loco. will switch into reverse and move no problem and my command loco whe run in conventional switches into reverse and also runs no problem.

Hopefully my friend will be home tonight and I can borrow an old transformer from him.

Marc

[Anonymous]

I already responded to the identical question on another forum, so won't repeat myself here other than to say I'll put my money on the CW80 being the primary source of problems. A nice looking transformer, but otherwise woefully inadequate.

[Anonymous]

Do the locomotives behave if you run them in conventional mode, aka do not power up the command base? If so, part of the problem is with propogation of the signal from the command base. If they behave badly even with the command base there is some basic wiring problem going on.

"I don't see how the remote switches can be powered by a seperate source. "

Please refer to age 8 of the switch owners manual. If you chose NOT to run the switch off of track power, you will need to remove the jumper. If you chose to remove the jumper and provide fixed voltage to the switch you MUST NOT USE the CW 80's auxiliary outputs. Internal connections of the CW will cause serious problems. You must use a seperate transformer that is in phase with the one you are using for track power. If you removed the jumper and forgot that you did this, find it and put it back in.

Because of the CW-80's internal wiring do not use the AUX outputs with any accessory that ties into track common. This will cause electrical problems and probably interfere with the command signal.

[lionelsoni]

"...the engines...work perfectly on my friends tubular layout." I wouldn't try to talk anyone out of TMCC, DCS, Fastrack, etc., who is happy with it. But those engines may be trying to send you a message.

[Anonymous]

I am having my own problems w/Fastrack, CW-80 and remote switches but all of the posts at the topic RE: CW-80 Accessory power problem with fastrack RC switches aren't making any sense to me and here's why.

I don't see how the remote switches can be powered by a seperate source. They snap right into the adjoining track sections and aren't powered from the accessory post (at least tha't how mine work).

Here is my problem, and I'm on my second CW-80. My command engines don't respond well and don't maintain even speed all around the track despite the fact that I have my main power runing to 3 sectons of track on a 5x8' layout. They short out over the switches and can't keep up enough power (or I guess technically signal in command mode) to back through the remote switches unless I send them recklessly speeding through. In another post I reported troubles getting my BB1 to operat in forward in command with the traction tires on. Now I have a second command engine and I think the problem is really the Fastrack/CW-80/FT Remote Switches (one or all together). At some points away from the switches my command engines won't power forward when I turn up power. The green light on the transformer starts to blink and the power to all the accessories starts to drain and the lights dim. If I change direction the train will go in reverse and then I again swithch to forward and then the train will usually run.
On my conventional engines when I press the neutral button on the CW-80 and then again to put the train in reverse it wont go in reverse but locks up, again unless I slam the power all the way up and blast the train off.
I know its not the engines because they work perfectly on my friends tubular layout.
Any suggestions would be appreciated, and please in plain english. I can't read a schematic and don't understand the technical stuff at all. Further I have no desire to understand the technical stuff, just want to play with TOY trains.

I have been doing a lot of whining on this forum but I really want to enjoy this hobby and so far its just full of frustration. I have built a nice layout and have some nice trains, now if I could just rund the trains enjoyably all would be well.