GG-1 Question

[Anonymous]

"For some odd reason, Lionel illustrated the GG-1 with its front pantograph up in the 1948 catalog."

Artistic license.

[Anonymous]

For some odd reason, Lionel illustrated the GG-1 with its front pantograph up in the 1948 catalog.

[lionelsoni]

The lower frequency simplified the design of the traction motors, which were actually just much larger versions of the universal motors traditionally used for toy trains. At higher frequencies and in large sizes these do not work as well as DC motors. But AC was very desirable for transmitting the power long distances. So the overall design was a compromise.

Twenty-five hertz was actually the original frequency used in the Niagara Falls generation and was used by everyone, not just the railroads. You can find 25-hertz transformers listed in the prewar Lionel catalogs. The Europeans generally use 16 2/3 hertz, exactly one-third of their power frequency to facilitate generating it from 50 hertz. But they have always used it only for trains.

[Anonymous]

Did anyone mention the GG1 at the Railroaders museum in Altona, pa?

[Anonymous]

http://www.crisny.org/not-for-profit/railroad/en_info.htm

[jefelectric]

Bob, What was the technical advantage to the low frequency power, if there was one. If not why was it selected?

This topic sure did stray from Chuck's original question but it is very interesting.

[lionelsoni]

Twenty-five hertz is also used by the Mariazellerbahn in Austria, generated synchronously from the 50-hertz commercial power system.

[marxalot]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chuckn

Protoype (aka Old Rivits) originally had an air cooled transformer.

Wow, that must have been a hot ride and I wonder how they are fit an air cooled unit inside. May have been the reason to go to liquid. Once again, if the thing isn't pulling a full load we could do with less/smaller transformers. Not sure of all the accuracy or dates but from the GG1 home page:

Of the 16 units still in existance, 3 are under cover and 8 have been restored to Pensy paint. at least 4 of the units are rapidly deteriorating for lack of upkeep, especially 4876. Most, if not all, G tranformers were drained of the PCB laden coolant oil when they left service. Some may have been refilled with sand or concrete, others removed. Which units may be operable is a mystery.

In as far as the 25Hz power system, despite many reports, the intended frequency change planned in the 1980's never occured and the G's homeland remains 25Hz to this day. It is also reported that there is a 25Hz system somewhere in the gulf coast area.

More information is sought on which units have retained their transformers and what the condition of the transformers is. Also, more detailed information is sought on the status of units 4876, 4879, 4882, 4917 and 4933.

[Anonymous]

Protoype (aka Old Rivits) originally had an air cooled transformer.

[marxalot]

QUOTE: Originally posted by phillyreading

The GG1 ran on twenty five hertz or cycles AC, not a common frequency today, also the transformer boxes would have to be replaced inside the cab,

A problem with those transformers is that they used PCB liquid as a coolant. This has environmental issues and is no longer made. An advantage of PCB transformers was that they were smaller than anything else available and that still pretty much holds true. With the tight spaces inside that locomotive there is probably no replacement available. But a restored unit maybe wouldn't have to have all the horsepower that the original did so that might be a way out. But you are right about not having any 25 cycle out there to power from.

Jim

[phillyreading]

Looked at the websites on other responses and it seems that a GG1 will not be running any time soon, mainly because of the cost to restore this locomotive. It might be cheaper to make a reproduction of the GG1 rather than to restore one because of the antique electrical systems used inside the GG1 and structural integrity of the frames
or subframes. The GG1 ran on twenty five hertz or cycles AC, not a common frequency today, also the transformer boxes would have to be replaced inside the cab, and the traction motors replaced as well.
Looks like the GG1 will be a museum piece for quite a while or until some really rich person decides to rebuild one.
Lee Fritz

[cnw1995]

Bad weather certainly played havoc with trolley poles and lines too. I just finished reading a book about the North Shore line's travails in winter.. derails due to snow packing the tracks; lines down due to icing, all sorts of shorts with fine snow getting into the traction motors - a similar problem with the GG1s later in their lives.

[lionelsoni]

In icy weather, there would be a "double pantograph" order. Then the leading locomotive would run with both pantographs up; but all others would continue to run with only the rear pantograph. Running with adjacent pantographs up on two adjacent locomotives was against the rules, ice or not.

[phillyreading]

The rear pantograph would be up for forward and down for reverse with the front pantograph up for reverse. Don't know about ice or other bad weather.

Lee Fritz

[artyoung]

Rear pantograph was always up - if it snagged on anything, it wouldn't damage the other.

[Anonymous]

Much as I love to see threads about the GG1, both real and model, I would point out again that much of this speculation is unnecessary. Links to the full roster of GG1's produced, and a current list of survivors, their locations and conditions are available on the first page of:

http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/

The site is not "official," but it's pretty darn good, and it contains links to other GG1 references, as well as the various paint schemes that were used -- some 'way more successfully than others. Try it! You'll like it. (It's not MY website.)

Here's another that may (or may not) have already been mentioned:

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/GG1/#survivors

As a boy, I wanted Lionel's GG1 so bad I could taste it, but we couldn't afford it until I finally found gainful employment as an adult. My dad took me to the the one that had crashed through the floor in Union Station in early 1953. I had always wondered what would happen at Union Station's head in if something couldn't stop. Now I knew. That loco, #4876, was re-assembled and ran again. It now rusts and rots in the outer yard at Baltimore, the property of the B&O museum, which apparently has no realistic plans to restore it. Pity!

wolverine49

[laz 57]

OOOPS sorry JOHN, see you beat me to it.
laz57

[laz 57]

QUOTE: Originally posted by luther_stanton

I believe the one at Strasburg is the only remaining GG1 on display. I was there two years ago and it was one impressive locomotive to stand next to.

Actually the entire collection in the museum was top notch. A couple nice Shays, and the first had I even seen close up, as well.

- Luther

In HARRISBURG PA at the AMTRACK station there is one on display down where you board the train.
laz57

[cnw1995]

IRM GG1 - not-working but awesome to see close up. http://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/image.pl?width=300&img=/pictures/roster/4939amt.jpg

[lionelsoni]

There is a nice shot of a GG1 coming into a station in the 1951 movie "Bright Victory".

GG1 4903 is at the Dallas "Age of Steam" museum, along with Big Boy 4018 and a Centennial.

If anyone has any more-detailed questions about the GG1, I have an operator's manual and the PRR rulebook for pantograph operation, which should have the answers.

[Anonymous]

Near the bottom of the following link's page is another link that will start a download of an ASME brochure on the GG-1 (PDF format). Not as extensive as several of the reference books that cover the GG-1 (inlcluding Zimmerman's, Staufer's or Middelton's) but this has a lot of info and a few interesting pictures. Plus it's FREE!

http://www.asme.org/Communities/History/Landmarks/Penn_RR_GG1_Electric.cfm

[Anonymous]

An excellent site for GG! info, one page of which was referenced above, is:

http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/

wolverine49

[Anonymous]

I think I read that only 10 were painted tuscan. I road in back of these for a number of years from Phila to NYC, all ugly PC black, but still very impressive. Joe

[riverrailfan]

GG1 also at Illinois railway museum in tuscan red

[jefelectric]

There is also a GG1 on display at the Harrisburg, PA station.

For a lot of PRR info, check out this site.

http://www.prrths.com/PRR_Default.html

[Blueberryhill RR]

Thanks , fellas.

That's a lot of good information.

Chuck

[Eddystone]

Chuck, here is a link to a site that has all the paint scemes worn by GG-1's with dates and #'s.
http://www.spikesys.com/GG1/paint.html

Paul, the rear pantograph was up when operating. Exceptions would be if the contact shoes were worn or in snow and ice storms both would be up to help keep ice buildup of the catenary.

[pbjwilson]

Which pantograph was up when running?

[Anonymous]

The red paint job was intended for use with the streamlined Senator and Congressionals. There were a lot of loco's painted green that hauled passenger trains. Three locomotives were also painted silver. The loco's were originaly geared for passenger use or for freight. Eventually they were all regeared for freight use. In addition to the variations in base color, they also wore variaions of stripping, some 5 stripe cat whisker, some a single broad stripe and a few had other variations.