K-line

[Anonymous]

Nope! I wasn't planning to edit any K-Line guide (TM Books was interested in doing one). I wouldn't even have edited it when I worked at Kalmbach, since we would have had someone with far more K-Line expertise than I handle the task. And when I was with Bruce Greenberg at Greenberg Publishing, we didn't mention the name Maury Klein on the premises. Turns out Bruce was a very astute man in that regard!

Back when I was in the train book publishing business, I always figured Maury was his own worst enemy. Funny how things work out in that regard if you just give them a little time! [;)]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

The one they did in-house is okay for a company organ (not the most reliable source of a true guide), but lacks a lot of stuff they did not want included.

Do I detect some sour grapes here because you were not allowed or asked to edit the guide?[:0]

[Anonymous]

That would be Broadway Limited. They make some nice stuff, primarily in HO, but also in On30. I have a couple of their sound-equipped On30 models (quite nice).

Maury Klein, over the years, threatened to sue anyone who dared do a K-Line collector's guide; hence the lack of any independent volumes covering their production. The one they did in-house is okay for a company organ (not the most reliable source of a true guide), but lacks a lot of stuff they did not want included.

[brianel027]

You got me Jon! [D)]

Serves me right for typing too fast and not paying attention.... just hope I don't start some trend that turns that Chinese facility into a molten lead figure in a CoilPix Production.

Poppa Zit, you'd better get her back before Clyde lays his hands on her!! Stardom in a CoilPix Production tends to change your life forever.

Grubba has his own company with Ken Silvestri, called Broadway something... Broadway Electonics or Trains... I don't pay attention to HO and don't think so highly of his so-called contribution. Sanda Kan makes trains for everybody. It's a huge facility and that's what they make there... model trains.

K-Line's collector book has a long sad story that began with TM Books wanting to do a Priuce Guide for K-Line. Who knows what happened... unpleasant words were exchanged and the book never happened and K-Line did their own. The KCC Book was way late and reportedly many who worked so hard on the book were fired when the book got published.

I can't imagine we'll be seeing Volume 2 any time real soon. [%-)]

[Anonymous]

Well there's one thing for sure. Maury Klein published the best collectors guide in the history of the hobby. K-LINE COLLECTORS GUIDE Volume 1: Trains 1985-1998 copyright 1999 MDK Inc. The details and pictures are outstanding! I look at it often.[tup][tup][tup]

While we're at it, whatever happened to Bob Grubba? Someone said he was selling HO in Florida but I don't know that for a fact. Doesn't Sanda Kan make HO too?

[Poppa_Zit]

Sandra Kan -- didn't I once work with her at a radio station?

[Kooljock1]

Um, I don't know of anybody named Sandra Kan, but I do know of a Chinese manufaturer called SANDA KAN.

I've seen this "Sandra" thing around a lot it seems...

Jon [8D]

[Anonymous]

I don't necessarily think the Lionel name holds any sort of real fascination for new and younger entrants to the hobby, many of whom have no connection to the firm or its products. Indeed, many today do not even have fathers who have any real connection to the Lionel brand.

Although Maury Klein and one of his associates drove the nail in the coffin that killed K-Line, the real blame for its demise, in my opinion, lies squarely on the shoulders of the increasingly finnicky and demanding hobbyists that have become so much a part of the hobby in the past decade or so.

Back in the late 90s, I said time and time again over on the AOL boards that we hobbyists were our own worst enemy and would eventually, after a period of plenty, drive the industry to a point where making O gauge toy trains was no longer a viable or profitable enterprise. Slowly but surely, this is becoming a reality, and anyone who doesn't see that is simply viewing things through rose-colored glasses.

As Brian noted, K-Line would have been far better off not trying to be all things to all people, but instead should have stuck with the core product line that made them a success in the first place. A hard lesson learned for all concerned!

[brianel027]

Well J. Fred, anything can happen. And stranger things have happened.

Aside from the whole K-Line/Lionel lawsuit affair and the resulting fallout, K-Line was already getting in over their financial head.

There are others who of the opinion that M.K. and Nick Ladd will be back in the train business in s some fashion. I don't know how they can think this though. For one thing, I'm sure there are plenty of hard feelings now between M.K. and his one-time engineering wonder-boy. For another, Sandra Kan is the world's largest manufacturing facility for making model trains and K-Line (as it was) owes them loads. For another, there is just not enough new growth in the hobby for another high-end train importer.

Ironic too that the very products K-Line ignored are the ones that RMT is having success with. But they aren't flooding the market with new styles of locos, and by using exisiting tooling, RMT doesn't have the capital investment to recover before they make money.

And the adult train consumer has become spoiled by having "what they want, when they want it, and for the blowout price they want to pay" which spells disaster for any train company. Even the CEO of Lionel said no one should expect Lionel to put out more new products that were so expensive to produce, that they couldn't make money at the needed price point.

Now reviewing the history of K-Line, M/K. purchased much of the old MARX tooling. Some of that tooling was reported to be in rough shape. K-Line did invest in reburbishing those dies, but there are still many MARX origin items that K-Line never issued. One might suppose it is possible that M.K. still has property of those tools and dies to some of those MARX items that never got into the K-Line catalog. Again, why would they ship dies to China if the products weren't planned on being produced. So the possibility exists that M.K. still has possesion of more original MARX tools and dies.

Wouldn't it therefore be somewhat ironic if some new M.K. company started producing 027 type trains from this tooling. Ironic because K-Line did so much to forget about their original customers. Also ironic too, that maybe this product would have to be produced in the states... or certainly somewhere else other than Sanda Kan one might think. Unless Sandra Kan has a short-term memory and forgets about the recent past... after all money is money.

But K-Line is dead because they foolishly focused entirely too much on scale proportioned products in quantities the market couldn't support and in a multitude of different product offerings which hadn't had the chance to recoup their development/tooling/die costs.

Ironic too, that so many who are mourning the loss of K-Line, praising the recent newer K-Line products seem to miss the point is was the offering of these exact products that put K-Line in so much trouble. Most of the folks at K-Line were NOT train guys... M.K. was a businessman who just wound up making trains. Nick Ladd was a collector, not an operator. Ironic too, in my opinion, that the engineering product head who was supposed have been such an asset, contributed so much to the downfall of the company.

Now I doubt K-Line was raking in the big bucks on their earlier MARX-Kusan originated products. But they also did not have the vast sums of money tied up into the tooling of these products. K-Line would have been well advised to have dramatically slowed down the development of so many scale offerings. Yeah, K-Line made a very very nice Hudson, but how many Hudson steam locomotives does this hobby need?

No one can ever replace the Lionel name in this hobby. Like it or not, even MTH trains are STILL Lionel trains in the eyes of the novice and the unaware. K-Line should have focused more on being K-Line and not trying to be the new Lionel of the hobby in terms of overall selection and product offerings.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't count Mr. Klein out until the fat lady sings. I've never been a big fan of Maury's, but he is a tenacious fellow and may very well surface again in one way or another. The K-Line firm we all knew is gone, kaput, fini, etc., but the individuals who built the firm are still around and probably in better shape that some folks are willing to give them credit for.

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by J. Fred Muggs

Well I can't believe K-line is totally gone like some of you guys think. There are probably some things going on that we don't know about like arranging a refinancing plan. I don't see Mr. Klein throwing in the towel after all of these years of building a business and reputation.

Uh-huh. This from a guy who once told ME I needed a guide dog.

Where have you been lately, living in a cave? It has been documented in many news reports that the K-Line of Mr. Klein repute is gone, kaput. When it all shakes out, Mr. Klein will be lucky not to face federal charges for wire fraud and mail fraud, in addition to industrial espionage and stealing trade secrets.

Because his downfall was public, I highly doubt he'll ever surface again, so don't hold your breath. If all goes acording to plan, Lionel will soon own the company that used to be K-Line, but Mr. Klein won't see any of the sale price.

Sad to say, Maury Klein is disgraced. He threw away all his "years of building a business and reputation" when he made the conscious decision to be dishonest. With the financial state of affairs he left his beloved K-Line in when he filed for bankruptcy, he'll be lucky to find someone who'll issue him a credit card.

[Anonymous]

Well I can't believe K-line is totally gone like some of you guys think. There are probably some things going on that we don't know about like arranging a refinancing plan. I don't see Mr. Klein throwing in the towel after all of these years of building a business and reputation.

[Anonymous]

"So what do the hobby shops tell people about K-line repairs now? They are still selling the stuff as new."
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I assume most of them just hope the question doesn't come up in the course of the transaction. And if it does come up, my guess is that none of them can, at this point, give a correct response since the business of parts and repairs is still very much up in the air.

[csxt30]

Not sure, but I think he may be talking about American Flyer. I don't think they made much stuff for a very long time or just made very little.

[FJ and G]

Pennsy writes: "Does anyone remember the LAST time lionel took over a competitor, and what happened hence?"

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So what happened?

[Anonymous]

K-line is dead and gone. Let it go. You might as well try and get your Packard serviced by the orginal company. It doesn't mean your Packard is junk, but you'll have to make other arrangments. (I'm sure there are some Packard fans that will take offence at the comparision to K-Line- there was none intended.)

The Lionel deal, for all intensive purposes, has not really happened yet. Read all the legal junk. Looks like Lionel basically just has a distribution agreement pending the outcome of Sanda-Kan getting control of some of K-Line's assets. (The wheels may have turned on the Sanda-Kan thing by now, but I haven't read about it.)

Expect to see the K-Line items that compliment the Lionel line (and NONE of the items that would compete.) 21" Bombardier cars come to mind as something that might appear in a Lionel catalog. And Lionel won't have anything to do with anything they didn't origionally sell.

It's funny - the Lionel bashers are jumping on the fact that Lionel won't have anything to do with the old K-Line stuff. That's just dumb IMO. It's not really a case of one manufactuer taking over annother.

[Anonymous]

So what do the hobby shops tell people about K-line repairs now? They are still selling the stuff as new.

[winrose46]

"I was advising people I knew not to send anything to Chapel Hill for repairs back in October when the situation started to have hints of disaster."
I did the same thing and had Engine House Hobbies take my dead Kline B&O Lt Pacfic and replace the non-functioning internals with Proto2. I personally think that once the disposition of Kline's assets is resolved in the courts, repairs might be sent back to the owners.

[pennsy_fan]

Does anyone remember the LAST time lionel took over a competitor, and what happened hence?.Does history repeat itself? (Just a little food for thought [;)])

p.s. I hope not[V]

[Poppa_Zit]

QUOTE: Originally posted by brianel027

Unless of course the multi-million debt that had built up with Sandra Kan and others just happened unexpectedly overnight.

Same thoughts here. I doubt the debt built up that quickly. But with the well-publicized lawsuit fiasco with Lionel and the bankruptcy, Sanda Kan may have simply "called in" the loan. That's what I would have done. I don't think bankruptcy protection filed and granted in this country protects a U.S. company from foreign liabilities and/or attempts to collect. I'd guess SK may have told K-Line something like "We'll ship product to you only as we get paid -- one dollar's worth of product for every three dollars toward accounts receivable."

Whatever, it is safe to assume that K-Line was cash poor and struggling. It had falsely manufactured a positive, sunny facade toward consumers by continuing to announce new products -- and going about business as if nothing were wrong. But K-Line was -- at best -- a perilous house of cards that came crashing down all at once. The sunny facade didn't fool Sanda Kan.

I doubt Lionel would hire any low-level K-Line employees -- what those jobs pay wouldn't be worth a move to Michigan, where I'll guess the inventory and operations will eventually be moved. You also have to wonder if all K-Line employees got all their back pay, etc., when the company shut down so suddenly. Sometimes when employees are lame ducks and know their termination is imminent, product starts walking out the door. Last on the list of priorities on such a sinking ship would be the repairs, which gets back to the original theme of this topic.

[brianel027]

And I also wouldn't count on Lionel bring on board a load of folks from K-Line. Maybe, maybe some lower level folks. Anyone who's been following this soap opera knows there is more than enough bad blood between the parties involved. Do I need mention "Marty the Mole" (quoting Clyde Coil), the Lionel employee who moonlighted and revealed Lionel engineering info that he shouldn't have, and then Bob Grubba? And is anyone foolish enough to believe that the owner of K-Line didn't have knowledge of the whole mess? MK was a very hands-on operator and anyone who has worked for K-Line knows you aren't working for K-Line, you are working for MDK.

I was advising people I knew not to send anything to Chapel Hill for repairs back in October when the situation started to have hints of disaster... just seemed to risky to me with the possibility of never seeing the sent item. The second 2005 catalog was more flier than catalog. It's unfortunate that K-Line tried to act like all things were normal - even announcing some new technological break through - when they must have known full well the deep trouble they were in. I won't even mention that "beyond words" press release issued when the first agreement was reached with Lionel over their legal troubles. Talk about.... there's no other way to say it... dumb.

Unless of course the multi-million debt that had built up with Sandra Kan and others just happened unexpectedly overnight.

[Anonymous]

There really is no point in contacting Lionel. They are NOT calling the shots now--at least not yet--and I've been told by someone who truly should know that they are actually a bit miffed at all the calls they have been getting in recent weeks (they're own fault, of course) from people who apparently assume the K-Line thing was a done deal.

I guess you can call them if you want to bug them and tick them off even more (that will probably not stand you in good stead with them later on if/when some deal is concluded), but my advice would be to assume that you are not going to see anything from what formerly was K-Line for a good long time to come. That's just being realistic about the situation, and I would be very surprised if things turn out differently.

[overall]

Why not contact Lionel if they are calling the shots now? I would place a long distance call to Mt Clemons to see what is going on.

[Anonymous]

I bet you'll hear a lot of hot air at York but I wouldn't pay any attention to it. Hobby dealers like to talk big and spread rumors. What I don't understand is why folks kept sending in their engines to K-line for repair right up to the day they went under. It was common knowledge for months about the financial troubles. A messy situation but I hope everything works out for the best.

[Anonymous]

As Neil noted, it is not a done deal at this point.

As for repairs that are in limbo: My guess is that they will remain that way for a good long time to come. Personally, I would be inclined to write them off (through no fault of your own) and seek replacement items for that museum layout. My guess is that items that were in the hands of K-Line at the point they closed-up shop are not likely to be seen for a number of months, if ever. No point in trying to call or send an e-mail, 'cause they are gone, fini, terminado, kaput!

[nblum]

The final bankruptcy court mediated disposition of K-Line's assets has not occurred, so nobody is doing anything with products or repairs, unfortunately, is my guess.

[Roger Bielen]

I've heard a comment that it is still not a closed deal, that there are some details to be settled. I may hear more from my source after he returns from York.

[palallin]

While Sanda-Kan undoubtedly has the manufacturing ducks in a row, Lionel will have to sort out the paperwork, find out who is supposed to get what, and figure out just what assets they have and where the assets are. All that will take time, and I wouldn't be surprised if they ARE trying to hire additional staff to do the job. If they could hire ex-K-line employees, they might be able to side-step that issue. somewhat. One more example of the nature of business: the physical assets get all the attention, but the ability to use them depends on the people (often considered disposible). How long did it take for MPC to learn how to make trains?

[FJ and G]

What's Lionel waiting for? Are they looking to hire new employees to run the K-line plant?