transformers and power

[cheech]

I'm a new-bee back again for more advice. You really helped with the wiring.

My layout: there are 4 train loops, lots of crossovers and switches, lots and
lots of accessories, some grades - one steep. three yards, a
turntable, and two transfer tables (lionel with the extension).

I am building it in steps. First step was the laying of the track. Next came the wiring. Thanks to your help, i've got the main power wiring figured out, i think. a 12g bus (10 different wire colors with white being the common) that go around the entire table, connecting every 10 feet with a terminal block - screw type - the wires have crimped spade connectors. this gives me 8 power blocks, the common and one spare wire. i expect to have a block for each of the four loops, and one for each of the 3 yards. the 8th block will be the steep incline that takes
looging/ore cars up the mountain, so to speak.

Now i want to hook up some power from transformer(s) to get a test
run of some equipment to make sure the grades and clearances are ok
before i lock the tracks down to the benchwork. I've got the accessories
temporarily located where i want them. now i want to see if it all
fits before i wire it all tighly.

i have planned to use 2 zw 275's. is there a best way to hook this up.
two routes and 2 yards on one, two routes, 1 yard and the mountain
road on the other?

i will have additional transformer power for lights, accessories and
trackside signals. again there is a lot of this.

TMCC (accessory controllers, SC switch controllers, powermaster,
command base, block power controller, voltage controller and track
power controllers) and how to hook it all up will become my next
hurdle. things have gotten a lot more complicated since my first
layout in the 50's...Wow!

but for now - can two transformers run this, as i have described it.
i can't yet send a copy of the layout. i haven't figured out how to
attach a layout, roughly drawn with RTS software yet...that is a
hurdle in itself.

any help or advice would be appreciated.

ralph

[Anonymous]

Ralph
Basic stuff first---I don't know what you do know:

1. Your postwar ZWs have a net output of 180-190 watts each in total,or a little over 10 amps each. The 275 watt rating on pw transformers is input wattage not output. For explanation purposes, if equally divided among the four main throttles, each throttle would have about 90 watts for its own power district . If its companion throttle on the same ZW was drawing 120 watts for an engine lashup and 9 lighted passenger cars, it would leave only about 60 watts available for the other throttle/district[more about power districts later].

2. Your two transformers must be "phased". Connect a wire from any "U" post of one transformer, then hook it to any "U" post on the other. Connect a wire to the "A" post on one transformer, plug both transformers in, raise the "A" throttles on both to about halfway and touch the "A" wire to the "A" post on the second transformer. If you get a weak spark or none, the units are in phase. If you get a strong spark/arc, reverse or rotate the male plug in the receptacle on one transformer only! Then mark the neutral side[prong that goes in the wide slot in the receptacle] of the plug on both units with white paint,etc, so they can always be plugged in "in phase".

3) With the accessories[structure lights?] you are comtemplating you will need an additional tranformer------probably with as much capacity as a pw ZW. Any accessory transformers must be "phased" with either of the other transformers which are already in phase----if you use a "layout common" [where all transformer commons are connected]. If you do not have an additional transformer, using the two railpower ZWs for accessories will consume much wattage and limit the engines and equipment you can run in your 4 districts.

4. If you use the two main throttles[A & D] on each transformer it provides you with train control for four power districts---one per throttle. Once you define the 4 power districts you must separate them electrically by a gap or insulated pin[fiber,wood] in the center or Hot rail. The outside or Common rails do not need to be gapped.
I can't pretend to define your power districts without a trackplan. But for conversation purposes, call each of your four main loops a separate district and decide which yards,sidings,etc, will be included with a particular main loop as a part of its power district. You will be crossing from one district to another at times which is one reason for phasing your transformers. With TMCC crossing to another district is not a train control problem but-----you will try to regulate the power between the two districts as one engine's or lighted car 's pickup is residing on one side of the gap and one pickup roller on the other [ you mention Block Power Controllers in your plans---they can be wired to take over control of both districts temporarily to equalize power while a train is crossing the gap].

Last, it appears that you intend to use TMCC, with the Command Base and Cab 1, as layout control. As a suggestion, if you can, I would buy a couple of 180 watt power houses for use as railpower in at least two of my districts, replacing one railpower ZW which you could then use for accessories and lighting.

Hope I haven't confused you!

[Anonymous]

I use 2 250Z's, three V's, a KW, and a couple of 1033's.

I am happy with the old Z's and V's and they can be a lot cheaper than a zw. I always have better results splitting loop power between transformers, ie one loop on a transformer. When you run two loops from the same transformer even though you will be on different contro knobs, you will get a little wish washy activity. The trains can speed up and slow down due to the normal track resistance. and when one slows and tries to draw more current, it pulls the second train down with it. I try to put a few stable accesories and one loop on each big transformer. If you have 10 or 20 switches, you may even put them on a big transformer by themselves. start counting lightbulbs. 10 switches is 20 lightbulbs plus the need to power the switch you may throw. I like running long trains at high speeds, and a 25 volt Z works real good. Now you would want to be careful with modern engines using these old monsters though, they are known for power spikes which toy motors didn't notice but modern electronics will die from.
My total investment in the 3 V's and 2 Z's was less than 125 bucks so to me they are cheap power.

I'd also choose one big trans over phasing 2 or 3 90 watter's together to achieve the same goal.

Dennis

[cheech]

hi leonard

thanks for the input. you didn't confuse. as the writing would indicate, i do not know a lot. answering my questions is like walking into a dark room...with furniture all over the place....i appreciate very much your taking the time.

if you have time for a couple follow-ups, i have them

1. phasing...you described what to do very well. if i put the transformer plugs into a good surge protector strip, making sure all the 'fat' sides go in the same way, test for the phasing as you describe...does that help the situation or worsen it by introducing another variable?

2. i have (i hope) put the insulator pins to keep the four loops and the yards separated...i have it on my checklist to verify again. i will probably go for the 180 watt powermasters.

that said, so i can better understand, let me play it back to you what i think i need do....not worrying about the cost factor right now, i get two 180 powermasters connected to 1 zw, this powers 2 loops and a yard.
each loop runs a passenger consist, probably 6 lighted cars each - the A throttle controls district 1 and the d throttle controls district 2; do it again only this time its freight trains with 15-20 cars each, half 'dummies' like TTUX half with cars that 'use power' (like the chase gondola, searchlight car, brakeman,horse bobbing cars, etc)on the 2nd zw a throttle and d throttle for a similar district 3 and 4. Or have i just overkilled the whole thing?

3. a third zw --where i was probably going all the time--- for the accessories --there are about 35 of them - i am still putting together the list. this leaves block signals and the like i recon @ 12 or so of these as well as structure lights on top of that. switches ...most ross/gargraves with dz1000 devices ...i recon 25 of those. ZW? i guess i look at the instructions, add up the watts and then know, right?

4. track plan. well, i put the tracks down the way i wanted to see them. i didn't want to be a slave to computer software. i then went back and drew the layout, using rts freeware. a couple of obvious problems with that, but i have a sketch now of what the layout is, color coded. by keeping it at a 'zoomed level' i haven't had to worry about all the true track connections or the 'height' and grade issues. as time permits, i go back and try to sort it all out to make it perfect for the computer. i cannot attach it here, at least i don't think so, and i don't wi***o presume, but i can email it to you if you are interested.

thanks again for your input so far. very valuable.

ralph

[cheech]

dennis
thanks for your input. i had not seen it as i was responding to leonard. i am committed to the zw's at the moment. i'm not sure if that will change over time, but i do apprecaite your taking the time to help me out.

ralph

[Anonymous]

The advice given is very excellent. If you run conventionally I would fuse each loop with 10 amp fuses because PW transformers breakers do not trip fast enough to protect modern equipment. Also on my layout I install 36 volt Bi-directional zener diodes from each hot to ground to protect from voltage spikes. You can buy these from Mouser for about a buck a piece.

If you use track activating accessories You can dedicate one transformer tap for relays and then wire all track activating accessories to a seperate power source. These are also usefull for automated block control.

Dale Hz

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Leonard

Ralph
Basic stuff first---I don't know what you do know:

1. Your postwar ZWs have a net output of 180-190 watts each in total,or a little over 10 amps each. The 275 watt rating on pw transformers is input wattage not output. For explanation purposes, if equally divided among the four main throttles, each throttle would have about 90 watts for its own power district . If its companion throttle on the same ZW was drawing 120 watts for an engine lashup and 9 lighted passenger cars, it would leave only about 60 watts available for the other throttle/district[more about power districts later].

I hope I'm not stealing this thread but one of your points brings up a question I was about to post so rather then start a seperate posting, I'll just ask it here. Above you were describing the power output Watts of an Post War ZW. I presently have a 275 PW and have a new modern ZW coming to me. My question as to do with the watts output of one compared to the other. Correct me if I'm wrong......... the Post war ZW having 275W is the input value or output value and how do you come to the answer on that? Also the new model ZW I have coming has different bricks to use, either a 130W or a 180W. Being that each controller on the newer one has it's own transformer then would I be correct in saying that the new one has an output value far better then the PW? Would the new one have the output level of either of the choices of transformer for each controller?

George

[Anonymous]

George
George
The PowerHouses that power the new "Celebration Series" ZWs are rated on their net output---180 watts at 18 volts. The same applies for the 135 watt PoHos---135 watts net output. You get a full useable 180 watts at the rails.

The old postwar ZWs however are rated on input which is 275 watts on the primary side[120 volt side]. But the secondary winding only produces about 180--190 watts at 18-20 volts for useable railpower. So the useful railpower output from a pw ZW is 180--190 watts available for both throttles. The pw ZW has a single core winding, primary and secondary each, that supplies both throttles whereas a modern transformer such as the Z-4000 has separate windings for each of two throttles--180 watts per throttle. Likewise for the modern 4 throttle equipped PoHo powered Celebration ZW which will accommodate up to four 180 watt PoHos, one per throttle.

[Anonymous]

Ralph
My reply to you flew off into cyber space for some reason. I will respond later, company [grand children] just came in the door.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Leonard

George
George
The PowerHouses that power the new "Celebration Series" ZWs are rated on their net output---180 watts at 18 volts. The same applies for the 135 watt PoHos---135 watts net output. You get a full useable 180 watts at the rails.

The old postwar ZWs however are rated on input which is 275 watts on the primary side[120 volt side]. But the secondary winding only produces about 180--190 watts at 18-20 volts for useable railpower. So the useful railpower output from a pw ZW is 180--190 watts available for both throttles.

That's what I thought, so on the postwar ZW's being that there is 180W for BOTH side of the transformer total, then each side would be split yet again between the two controllers per side in eccense reducing each controller according to the usage of eather of the two handles per side? So if each of the four outputs were drawing equally then the four max outputs would only be 45w? (whew I hope that made since.)
George

[lionelsoni]

Having the transformers in phase is necessary only if you're going to run a train from a block powered by one transformer into a block powered by the other. Lots of folks do this; but I perennially rant against it. The problem is that, unless the transformers are set to exactly the same voltage, there will be a fault current flowing through the locomotive pickups between the blocks. If you are using a Lionel multiple-output transformer (like a ZW), there is no circuit-breaker protection in this case, because Lionel, unlike American Flyer, used a single circuit breaker common to all the outputs. Since there is no common-mode fault current when you short the outputs together, the circuit breaker is not involved. You can add your own individual circuit breakers, either inside or outside the transformer case. I recommend the automatic-resetting ones available at auto-parts stores for a couple of bucks, in a variety of current ratings.

A better arrangement is to use a single-pole-double-throw-center-off switch for each block to select which transformer or control, if either, is to power the block. For more than two controls, you can use a rotary switch or even multiple toggle switches. An SPDT and a DPDT for each block will handle 4 sources. You can do 8 with an SPDT and two 3PDTs, but the latter are more trouble to find. Then keep each train connected to the same transformer as it moves around the layout. Nevertheless, it is a good idea to have the transformers in phase, since sooner or later you will make a mistake and cross between transformers. Having them in phase at least minimizes the arcing.

There is not much point in having the accessory voltage in phase with the track voltage, although there is no harm in it. In fact, the two voltages do not even need to be at the same frequency, for example, switch machines powered from DC. The only situation I can think of where it could make a difference is where all the locomotive wheels come off the grounded rail simultaneously but the locomotive maintains contact with the center rail and the control rail. Then the locomotive and accessory are in series across the sum of the track and accessory voltages, which probably means higher voltage for the accessory, at least until the wheels come back down.

The wide-narrow pin arrangement on modern plugs does not guarantee that the outputs will be in phase, since the cord could be attached to the actual transformer inside either way. I doubt that your postwar ZWs have them anyway. It is possible to change the phase of two transformers' outputs without rewiring simply by plugging each into a different phase of your house's power wiring. However, it would be a matter of luck to have two outlets of opposite phase close enough to do that. But sometimes the outlets of duplex recepticles are split and wired to opposite phases.

Some modern "transformers" are not really. They synthesize their output voltage by various techniques, which do not necessarily produce voltage waveforms that can be connected together in any phase relationship. This is another reason to stick with reliable earlier transformers.

[Anonymous]

Ralph
1. If the plugs on your pw ZWs have a wide blade/prong for entering the receptacle's wide neutral slot, it means they are non-Lionel type replacement plugs. The original Lionel standard replacement plugs do not have a wide prong. Nothing wrong with using a modern aftermarket polarized plug with wide blade, but be aware that if your two ZWs are not in phase, you will have to file the wide prong down on one transformer's plug so it can be rotated in the receptacle. [If you use TMCC, do not plug your Command Base into a surge-protected power strip].

You mention "180 powermasters" which throws me off track somewhat. I think you mean 180 PowerHouse, but I'm not certain!

We need to clarify whether your operating system is to be TMCC, Conventional or both? I had asssumed TMCC perhaps prematurely! The answer affects the type of power and control quipment you will need:

- A "PowerHouse" is a transformer only, a "brick" with no controls except when regulated by a Command Base and TMCC Cab 1 or other controller such as the new ZW's components.
-A "PowerMaster" is a Lionel track power controller [produces no power] which linked to a PowerHouse or other AC transformer and facilitates Conventional operation.
-A Lionel "TPC" is a premium,higher performance version of the PowerMaster track power controller. It was developed by I C Controls , a company bought out by Lionel.
(the new Celebration Series ZW suposedly has 4 PowerMasters built-in . The new ZW is only a track power controller---- not a transformer, until linked to one or more PowerHouses. The old, post war ZW is both a transformer and also a controller via its throttles).

b) If you have both TMCC and Conventional equipped engines and wi***o operate both at times[but not on the same loop or district at the same time], you will need a "track power controller", either a PowerMaster or TPC. You do not need a track power controller to operate TMCC engines, only for Conventional when powered by "bricks". With "Bricks", you will be regulating track voltage with the Cab 1 if operating Conventional engines. If using the pw ZW for power supply you do not need track power controllers.

Note:
-with TMCC the tracks have a constant 18 volts. Conventional engines will "fly" and leap off the track if not regulated by a track power controller!
-If using a pw ZW to power a TMCC system, the throttle is moved forward to provide a constant 18 volts {folks usually cut the TMCC voltage to about 16 V when controllable to extend bulb life}.

[Anonymous]

Ralph
I just saw Lionelsoni's post. the last thing you need is a technical debate to confuse you.

If you use TMCC, voltage at gapped crossovers is not a problem, all of your power districts will be the same constant track voltage with the Cab 1 throttle determining the engine voltage. Where crossing the gaps or fiber pins is a concern is the comparative amperage load not the voltage. However, you can regulate the load in the two districts before you cross over or you can use manual switches as Lionelsoni suggests or you can use the Block Power Controller you mentioned to electronically control both power districts from the Cab 1.

Neither the the old pw Z Ws , the PowerHouse "Bricks" nor the Z-4000s synthesize their secondary voltage. You are safe using any of these transformers.

Phase your transformers!

[cheech]

hi leonard

hope you enjoyed the grandkids.

thanks very much for your information. I'll begin to implement over the next few days, as time permits-- I'm on the honey-do list right now for the thanksgiving holiday.

words fail to supply my full appreciation

talk to you when i get it going ....or maybe sooner, if i run into trouble.


ralph

[lionelsoni]

You could set two outputs of the same ZW transformer to different voltages, connect them together, and plug it in. This might clear up any confusion caused by my advice but would not however clear the air--quite the contrary. Have a fire extinguisher handy.

[Anonymous]

??

[lionelsoni]

My previous posting was a response to having my warning about connecting transformer outputs together dismissed as a confusing technical debate. I apologize for the sarcasm, but not for the advice against what I consider a dangerous way of running trains.

[cheech]

BOB
NO WORRIES.

RALPH

[Anonymous]

Lionelsoni
Just so I will understand your argument(?)which I do not at this point.

I don't know why anyone would want to do it, but are you saying that connecting the two take-offs, say "A" and "D" from the same transformer winding/coil which is what a pw ZW has, will cause an upset? If so we disagree on how one makes a circuit because connecting "A" and "D" on the same pw ZW will not create anything--they are already connected to the same secondary core.

If on the other hand you are refering to a Celebration Series ZW and connecting the output of, say a 135 watt and 180 watt PowerHouse transformers to one another, I would agree because you are effectively trying to parallel two dissimilar rated transformers--two separate transformer windings. The same would apply for two separate pw ZWs---two separate windings. You cannot get the voltage set close enough on two separate pw ZWs to parallel without creating circulating currents. Not advisable!

You can parallel two similar rated PowerHouses by linking to a TPC which is designed to accommodate them safely---many do it because they were designed for it.

I'm done---good luck to all![:)]

[lionelsoni]

Leonard, the two outputs are indeed connected to the same winding. The problem comes when they are connected to different points on that winding. The voltage that you get from any transformer secondary comes from the fact that the output wires are connected to different points on the winding, the end points in the case of a simple one-output fixed transformer. So, whether the connections are made by soldering or by touching the bare winding with wipers, connecting them together creates a short circuit. As I just mentioned on another topic, the last two type-Z transformers that I took apart each had a burned section in the middles of its secondary, which could only have gotten there by shorting two of the outputs together.

I wouldn't do it either, but connecting transformer outputs together is just what happens when trains run between blocks powered by those different outputs.