Question about Gargraves track

[FJ and G]

I don't know if anyone on this forum uses Gargraves but I have several questions I was hoping you can answer, as I'm going to soon be purchasing about 150 feet of the track (Seems like Charlie Ro's prices are cheapest at $250 for 50 3-ft flex sections of nickle silver wood ties; but I'd be willing to look elsewhere if prices are lower).

1. What kind of wood are the ties made from? I'm planning to use the track outside and may need to periodically apply preservatives designed for certain type of wood.

2. Are the rails nickle-silver? I'll have to be careful not to step on them perhaps.

3. How does one go about bending the track?

Many thanks

[Big_Boy_4005]

Dave, I wasn't aware that Gargraves made nickel silver track, only stainless and tinplated steel. Atlas makes nickel silver.

Gargraves ties are most likely basswood or a similar fine grained hardwood.

However, I see they have a "new" line with plastic ties.

Unless it is solid rail, you wouldn't want to step on it regardless of material.

Bending isn't very difficult, but it helps to have a form to to bend it against.

[FJ and G]

Thanks, Elliot,

Then can stainless steel be soldiered. I'd like to solder jumper wires betweeen sections.

Also, I'll look for a preservative for bass wood.

Since they're tubular, guess they use track pins.

Is your layout GG?

Thanks

[Anonymous]

I have used silver solder effectively on stainless but it must be clean or it can be contrary to solder at times.
I don't know about yard installation, but on benchwork, I always lay out the track curve arc centerline with a "radius tape", string,etc,and install[bend] the track in-place. I bend and align the center rail with the marked arc line [or in my case the joint in split cork roadbed], driving up the rails and installing screws as I advance toward the track's leading edge. I leave the screws out at the trailing joint until last and then ease the joint in and then install screws to achieve perfect non-kink alignment with the center line and a perfect curve arc.

[fwright]

David, many folks I know (including myself) insert flattened spade lugs or tabs of sheet brass/nickel silver (I prefer nickel silver because the oxide conducts unlike brass) into the slot in the tubular rail from underneath. Feeder wires are soldered to the lugs or tabs. This works for both Gargraves and traditional tubular track. It makes a pretty secure connection, yet is removable if needed.

Connecting your posts - the Gargraves plastic ties are supposed to be UV resistant. I think Gargraves plastic tie with stainless steel rail would be your best bet for outside use. The wood ties are stained; I don't know how much moisture and water resistance they have for durability in the elements. Might be a lot of protoype-like maintenance (tie replacement) until wood preservatives came into wide-spread use. Using clean, loose ballast and maintaining it for a roadbed would help the longevity of the wood ties - again, just like the prototype.

Fred Wright

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yup Dave, my layout is all Gargraves. I don't have any experience with the stainless, but what Leonard says sounds correct about the soldering.

As far as the ties go, maybe a shallow pan with some of that deck preservative would work, just dip them and hang them to dry. Even though they are stained, I don't think they will hold up to the weather without treatment.

One thing about the pins, they aren't stainless, so you may have electrical trouble without jumpers.

[Anonymous]

Use the stainless version. You may want to consider the plastic tie version for outdoor use, This obviates the biggest plus GG has, i.e real wood ties, but real wood also tends to really rot. If you can keep the ballast well drained (just like a real railroad) it might be less of an issue.

Bend in place using the track centerline as a guide. NEVER start or end a curve at a track joint. Try to adjust so you have six-eight inches of run-in/run-out. A drftsman triangle and a 2 1/2" fibergalss re-enforced cut off wheel make installation a lot easier.

[FJ and G]

Leonard,

I believe silver solder means higher temps. Might try that and heat sink the ties with wet sand (looks like the plastic ties are the ones I should go with then for UV protection, as Fred seems to suggest).

My track will float on ballast so no screws will be used, as my understanding is that GG flex track stays in place once bent; at least the wood tie variety does. Don't know about the plastic tie variety. Maybe someone can advise.

Fred,

The spade or lugs sounds interesting. Wish I had a picture.

Elliot or anyone,

Is stainless steel as good a conductor as, say, nickle silver or clean brass? I'm fabbing my own turnouts using rails pulled from Realtrax, which I believe are n/s. I don't suppose the 2 types of metals react in an adverse way.

Also, if I solder copper wire to stainless steel using silver solder, I don't know if the different types of metals react poorly.

Reason I sound so paranoid about this is I had a really bad experience once, living in a condo.

The plumbers had mixed 2 types of metals. I forget which types but I believe they mixed brass with another type and condos after about 5 years started flooding due to bursted pipes.

The warranty phase had passed so we had to foot the bill for all new plumbing.

They also screwed up the roof with a new type of preservative that warped the roof but that's another story and I'm off on a tangent again.

[FJ and G]

chuck,

Didn't see your reply while I was busy typing. You write: "NEVER start or end a curve at a track joint."

Practically all of the layout will be curved except for 4 turnouts I'm fabricating. This could pose some problems perhaps.

Trying to keep track diameter at a minimum of 7 feet.

[lionelsoni]

Stainless steel is about as good a conductor as brass, or about 25 percent of copper's conductivity, depending on the alloy. Steel is around 10 percent, but varies a lot with alloy. Nickel silver is about 5 percent.

[SPFan]

Dave, you can use common tin/lead electronic solder if you use an active flux. "Stay Clean" zinc chloride flux will work on many common stainless alloys. Also Leonard may have been referring to silver bearing solder which is 1-3% silver in tin/lead. Not silver solder used in brazing. Silver bearing solder melts at temperatures close to common tin/lead.
I would also recommend plastic ties for outdoor applications. The wood Gargraves uses is not vey dense (poplar??) and would not last long outdoors and most wood preservatives would probably corrode the metal.

Pete

[FJ and G]

Bob,

Thanks. That's good to hear!

Pete,

Thanks, sounds like the flux is the key. I use a Weller soldering iron without any fancy settings.

Yes, appears from replies that plastic is the way to go then. (I admit to having a fondness for the wood look of their ties so a bit disappointed but will forge ahead anyway).

Does the plastic tie variety maintain its shape when bent? This would be a very important consideration as the track must float in ballast so in can expand and contract naturally in all conditions without kinking.

[Blueberryhill RR]

Dave, this might sound a little primitive, but I used Gargraves around
my outside loop and bent to around a 55 gal. drum. Or you can use
a 35 gal. drum, depending on the radius. And I agree, with the statement
that you should never start a curve at the end of the track. Leave
about 6 inches of straight.

Chuck

[FJ and G]

Chuck,

Thanks. I'll heed the advise about the curve and at least 6 inches of straight. Fortunately I'm not constricted by benchwork table layouts so there's plenty of room in the wilds of the backyard.

I don't have a 55 gal drum but I know a fat lady of that diameter who I possibly can wrap it around.

Do you know if the plastic tie variety holds its shape once bent like wood. I know that Atlas and Scale tracks wants to bend back to the straight position.

[Blueberryhill RR]

Dave,
I bought 42" curved sections of Phantom Gargraves with plastic ties.
It was easier for me. I know that they wooden ties, when bent, stay
in the bend position.
Also, a fat lady might complain, when bending track.

Chuck

[FJ and G]

Chuck,

So are you saying that the ones you have w/plastic ties stay bent?

Thanks.

[Anonymous]

All of the GG I've seen with plastic ties was sectional and curved. I dont know if they have started making a plastic tie flex track with SS for outdour use.

Re the curves, if it is all curves and they are large radius (aka like O-84) you shouldn't have problems. The only time you do get into trouble is trying to go from a tight curve like O-31 to a straight section with the joint at the start of your tangent track. When you get to withing 7-9 inches of the end of a section of track, square off the rails with the cut off wheel and attach the next section, keep bending from the center rail. I worked with a pair of cordless drills, one with a countersink boring bit and the other with a screw driver. Bend about 9" of track with only the first three to four in critical alignment, drill/secure. Bend another 4-5" and go back and secure the 4-5" nearest the first section. Keep working back and forth until you only have 7-9" left. Cutt off, secure new piece, pick up bending/securing where you left off.

One question. How are you securing the track to the ground? All of the above assumes homasote/cork/foam over plywood:-)

[FJ and G]

Hi Chuck,

I was going to float the track on ballast. I sure like GG wood track.

I'm going to check the price of code 148 rail and perhaps rip my own ties from cedar or redwood.

I'm leaving all options on the table and keeping an open mind. Sorry for so many questions but this project is pretty important for me.

[Anonymous]

Dave
I have never seen GarGraves plastic tie flextrak only wood tie, but maybe I missed it. I believe you will have to fasten your flex in some manner to keep it from migrating in the curves when heavy engines run on it. Not necessarily to the extent that we screw down benchwork track (I remove the scews after I glue-ballast my track) but some sort of minimal restraint to limit side-to-side movement and possible misalignment. Perhaps pieces of 3/8 rebar driven into the ground adjacent to the ties or gutter spikes,etc.

My only outdoor experience was in 1991 with Large Scale[G] at our N.C. mountain cottage. In areas where it wasn't on raised trestles I buried and staked treated 1x4s edgewise under my real granite ballast for attaching the track. [However,this was an ill-fated effort at 4,000' altitude where I quickly learned that the terrain was too rough and the weather far too hostile so I moved inside and built a airborne twin shelf 5-track layout in O-gauge].

(Leonard, aka Dewey Trogdon)

[Anonymous]

Dave. CTT had an article "on an "O" guage outdoors layout in Pennsylvania (Pittsburg?)that used Gargraves. "The Bourg La Reine Railraod" It was in their August 2000 issue. Maybe you can still get a back copy. Unfortunately the builder soaked the track in creasote. I'm certain you'll find another preservative. Your project sounds great. Best of luck with it!

[FJ and G]

Hi Dewey,

This whole outdoor thing has been a real wakeup call and learning experience for me; esp. since the Brits use O scale outside much more than U.S.

I believe that I found the solution after some web surfing. It's something called "Battons" which are strips of strip wood attached to the underside of the ties and obviously hidden in the ballast below. They help maintain the shape of the track.

There are 2 schools of thought in the garden. 1 is to float the track and 2 is to anchor it in concrete and screwed to wood.

If you think O scale has various camps (hi rail vs toy; Lionel vs MTH) then you've seen nothin. There are so many schools of thought in garden RRing that it's total anarchy.

Dozens of rail and coupler types; Fantasy vs hi rail; scales of unbelievable number; and that's not even getting into which plants are best to plant.

I'm tending now to code 148 and handlayed track on redwood ties. I may make my purchase as early as tomorrow.

And, as usual, I'll post progress pictures ad nauseum.

BTW, Dewey, you've got a very classy indoor 3-rail layout around the ceiling.

[FJ and G]

Hi dtp,

Was typing when you posted.

I've got that issue as a keepsake that keeps me motivated. He had some issue with that track but it looks 1st class. He used the GG wood trackage but covered it. A bit of hi-maintenance but worked for him for about 20 years. Understand the trackage isn't working at this time and he's up in his 80s or something. But his was a class act. A real pioneering effort. His line was all CP and CN.

[Anonymous]

The cover of the magazine was indeed Awesome!
(BTW it was the Aug2000 issue of Garden Railways, My mistake)
Thanks for the update on his layout. Sorry it's isn't operation. I would have loved to see it. It your turn now Dave!

[poppyl]

Dave;

I've bent GG with plastic ties although I prefer the wood. As you bend the track, keep re-spacing the plastic ties to keep the torsion on them down. This becomes very important if you are bending to any dimension below about 36". In terms of wood ties outside, you might also want to e-mail GG and see what they recommend. They generally answer their e-mails quickly.

Poppyl

[Anonymous]

Find out what the depth of the frost line is for your area. If its shallow you can do reasonable anchors without too much trouble. For my area, I would have to drop down BELOW the frost line which is about 30" (I don't consdier this reasonable). In South Carolina the frost line is about 4". In parts of Massachussettes it's 4 feet. Yor local municipality can tell you what the depth is. Floating the track isn't such a bad idea. More "routine" maintenance but it is easier to work on to repair/replace..

I was going to mention the issue of bugs before. Capenter ants love soft wood and might munch the ties. If you are going to treat the wood, don't use Creosotte. It's nasty stuff. There are alternative products.

[FJ and G]

I had assumed that GG was only made w/wood ties; since it isn't I'm likely going to purchase rails and rip my own ties from cedar or redwood, using the recommended wood treatment (from Lowe's or Home Depot).

I'm doing some price comparison and expect to day to buy about 400 or 500 feet of rail. Probably code 148 nickle silver. The advantages are that it's solid, easy to solder, low cost, easy to bend and grind for turnouts; more prototypical for O scale and it even might offer better electrical contact, as the weight of the locomotive is pressing down on a smaller area, thus increasing the traction as well as the electrical contact area because the weight is focused on a smaller area. The last of what I said is my own conjecture.

[fwright]

Dave

Don't buy a lot of Code 148 just yet. Test a section with your spikes of choice - I think 3 rail O flanges are too deep for spiked Code 148. In the '50s and '60s, Code 172 was the over-sized "standard" for O scale (just like Code 100 for HO). I suspect Code 172 is the minimum for hi-rail. It would be interesting to know what rail size Atlas 3 rail O track uses - I'll take this as tasking to go measure a piece and report back.

Cheering you on - it's a very interesting project
Fred Wright

[fwright]

Did some checking on a piece of Gargraves and Atlas 3 rail I have - bought to test train tracking over inter-mixed track brands at speed.

Atlas uses solid nickel silver rail, with center rail blackened. Rail Height is 1/4 in or Code 250 according to my eyes. This rail height is sufficient for my modern, postwar, and single prewar trains. Don't know how much smaller the rail height can be and still provide flange clearance - would have to measure the deepest flanges to know. Then some height is needed for the spike heads over the rail base, and a little - perhaps .010 in or greater - for clearance. Even then, raised spike heads would be hit.

The Gargraves Phantom - wood ties, blackened center rail, tinplated rails - is over 15 years old, and shows no rust after over 12 years storage in both dry and damp basements. It was bought for a display track for my prewar train a long time ago. The Gargraves rail is shaped tubular - it looks close to a solid rail section above the ties. The top is flatter and narrower than conventional tubular, and takes much smaller pins. Below the ties the open tube continues with a cross-section similar to the web of the rail shape above the ties. This extension is inserted into slots cut into the ties to hold the rails in gauge. Since the extension in open on the bottom, similar to the base of tubular track, I insert my wire feeders into this base between the ties. Solid wire of 18-20 gauge can be inserted directly into the base of the rail. Ring lugs work well, too. Crimp and/or solder (I prefer crimping and soldering) the lug to the wire and insert lug into the rail base for an easy way to feed the track. In a pinch, I have also used home-made lugs of sheet brass or nickel silver .020 - .030 stock. Cut a 1/2 in square (or smaller ) tab of sheet metal. Getting fancy, I make slits to enable folding the metal over the wire crimp lug-style. Soldering the wire to my home-made lug, I then insert the flat portion of the tab/lug into the base of the rail.

I read about inserting solid wire or using ring lugs a long time ago - I though this was almost standard practice to get rid of soldering feeders directly to the rail the way my father did years ago.

Fred Wright

[FJ and G]

Fred,

Unfortunately I already ordered about 300 feet of code 148. I have a section at home and tested all my trains on it and there's actually a good amount of clearance 1/8 inch? above the ties to the flanges.

I've made turnouts w/tubular as well as solid code 215 rail. The code 148 should be much easier as there won't be nearly as tough a time bending the rail to the radius I need. Also, I'm thinking that the points may also be a snap. I may try to eliminate the pivot action and experiment to see if the rail has enough bend flexion to move the points on their own like the prototype. However, I'll have to ensure the switch stand locks the points into place or they'll likely bend back towards the straight.

I purchased Right O Way rail; which listed at BK Enterprises http://www.troutcreekeng.com/bks.html

for just $55 or so for 99 feet of rail. When I called, however, they said the mfgr had raised the price to about $80 unfortunately; but still about $20 cheaper than microscale of same.

It'll take about 10 days for the rail to arrive. Today, I'm buying cedar or redwood and some preservative and over the next few days will begin ripping and treating ties. As usual, I'll post progress for those few who might be interested in learning from all my mistakes.

I've been wracking my head over the roadbed issue for outdoors. The most adventageous roadbed is the floating style b/c it allows for track expansion in hot weather. I was going to go with floating but since I downsized the rail (code 148 is prototypical for O scale) I'm a bit concerned about throwing the rails out of gauge if I or the beagle hits the track.

The other option is to batten the whole thing down in cement with rebar and a strip of pressure treated wood in concrete. The disadvantage is that the track doesn't float; it takes a lot of materials and effort to build and it is more or less permanent, not allowing trackplan changes with felicity.

Thus, the brain wracking. I went thru books and magazines, not really finding anything I was really enamored with until I read forum member Allan Milliler's Getting Started in Garden RRing.

He describes the ideal (in my case) roadbed that solves many problems. It uses 1.25 inch pvc uprights afixed thru holes in pressure treated wood roadbed and attached there with deck screws.

I have an 8 foot long "digger" (Harbor Freight $20), which can easily punch the holes I need. The PVC (probably outdoor rated) can't easily be digested by termites and shouldn't rot for quite a long time.

The pressure treated wood (deck planking) can then support the track but still allow it to float, simply by screwing in the ties every few feet, but ensuring the screws are loose and the predrilled hole is wider than the shank to allow for track flexion. The system, IMO is ingenious. Furthermore, since my yard isn't level, this will allow me to even raise the roadbed very quickly over the many declivities and downslopes, and then in the future to more leisurely construct trestlework (and then cut down the pvc in those areas emplaced with trestle.

I took the day off today to do some cleaning and purchase some wood preservatives and stuff; along w/PVC

[lionelsoni]

Dave, consider bending the points (both curved and straight) so that, when unrestrained, they are midway between the two extreme positions, to minimize the load on the switch rod and its pivots.

Another idea to try: Saw through the rail flanges of the point rails, perhaps in more than one place, to make them more flexible.