Beginner Transformer/Controller question

[Anonymous]

Hi all,
As a relative beginner to trains, my soon to be 7-year-old received a
Pennsylvania Flyer started set a couple of years ago and loves it. Now
we would like to expand it. We like the layout at the bottom of this
webpage... http://www.thortrains.net/marx/kdlay27a.html ...but have a
couple of questions.

First, just to verify, the last layout on the page does not appear to require 45
degree curves if I am correct. I want to make sure I'm buying the right
track. We're going to be expanding with the stock Lionel tubular track.

Second, what kind of power/wiring will we need to run 1 Flyer with
freight cars, a few lights for now, and probably one inexpensive (RS-3?) diesel engine (solo), which he will get during the holidays? Is the Lionel CW-80
transformer adequate? This is the one area I'm really still confused on. I currently have the stock Lionel 40 watt/3 amp Power & Control system. I wasn't sure if I could get away with adding a couple of Lockon's around the track to distribute the juice or not.

Thanks for the advice!

[Big_Boy_4005]

That's a nifty and very busy layout.

Starting with the curves, any of Lionel's small diameter curves are 8 to the circle, or 45 degrees per section. This includes their new Fastrack system, but those curves form a larger circle. This means that a layout built with that system will just take up more space.

Normal O and 027 are just fine for what you want to do.

That layout is capable of running 2 trains independently of each other. You will need 2 seperate throttles if you want to run 2 trains. The CW-80, and the set transformer will give you what you need in terms of throttles and power for the trains. The CW-80 may also be able to handle the accessory load. It depends on how many accessories you have.

Wiring could be slightly tricky, depending on what you want to be able to do, and may require additional electrical switches. You will certainly want to use insulating pins between the two loops of track. You will also want to have your transformers "in phase" with one another.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE:
That layout is capable of running 2 trains independently of each other. You will need 2 separate throttles if you want to run 2 trains. The CW-80, and the set transformer will give you what you need in terms of throttles and power for the trains. The CW-80 may also be able to handle the accessory load. It depends on how many accessories you have.

Wiring could be slightly tricky, depending on what you want to be able to do, and may require additional electrical switches. You will certainly want to use insulating pins between the two loops of track. You will also want to have your transformers "in phase" with one another.

Thanks for the info. Could you recommend a book on wiring, or elaborate on a couple of points. Mainly the insulating pins between the two loops of track and having the transformers 'in phase?'

If I'm thinking correctly, I need to have the insulating pins if I want to run two trains simultaneously on the different loops with different transformers. If I just want to run one train with one transformer, I don't need the pins?

I'm also guessing by your reply that the 40 W transformer won't cut it, which is what I thought. Looking at two scenarios (the simpler the better), what would be your suggestions?
Option A - run everything off of the CW-80 (or another suggested transformer for around $100?) and just have one train running at a time. The 40W could run some accessories
Option B - run one on the outer loop and one on the inner loop, which would require the insulating pins. The outside loop train could probably be run off of the 40W transformer.

Suggestions on transformers and where to purchase one would be great. CharlesRo seems to have good prices.

Thanks again.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Start with the last part first. Charlie has always been my mail order dealer of choice, and usually has the best prices on most items. This is not to say that there aren't other good dealers out there, but I've been buying from Charlie for nearly 20 years now, no problems.

When you talk about modern transformers, I'm at a slight disadvantage, because I haven't bought any, and have only seen them in person a couple of times. I believe the way they are making them now, they don't run the wall current into the main housing. They use small wall mounted transformers, and run low voltage to the controller. If that is the case, then the phasing problem may not even come into play, as long as you plug them into the wall in the same orientation.

If you just want to run one train at a time (option A), life is simple. No insulating pins required. A couple of lock ons (one on each loop) and you are off to the races. It's the 2 train operation where things start to get more complicated. It might be best to leave that for later.

Your 40 Watt transformer should easily handle one train. Size of layout has nothing to do with power requirements, it's devices being operated that matter. One nice thing about modern trains is they don't use nearly as much power as the older ones, so your 40 Watts go much further. It is all going to boil down to the quantity of accessories you want to operate at the same time. As your empire grows, you will need a bigger transformer, but to start and just run the train, you should be OK.

Kalmbach has a book on wiring for toy trains. Here's a link, it's at the bottom of the page.

http://store.yahoo.com/kalmbachcatalog/toy-trains-books-repair-and-operation.html

Have fun, and keep asking questions.[:)]

[fwright]

Personally, I would get a decent used 1090 transformer for the second control unit. I have heard too many stories of problems with the CW-80s, and the used 1090 will cost less. As long as you aren't moving into the the sound and command control, the simple post war transformers are great.

When your power needs become greater than your set 40 watt and the 1090, get a second 1090. Two 1090s will power most 4x8 layouts.

To begin, I would just use insulated track pins on all connections between the outer loop and inner loop. Hook up the 1090 to the inner loop and your existing set transformer to the outer. If you are just insulating the center rail, you need to "phase" the two transformers.

Later, you can wire up a more complex, but more fun to operate, "cab control" arrangement where a single transformer controls a given train, no matter where it goes on the layout. It will take about 10-12 "blocks" on your chosen track plan with an electrical toggle switch for each block to select which transformer controls the particular block of track.

Editing: I am getting more of my senior "moments". I meant a 1033 or 1044 transformer - the 90 watt post war favorites with the speed and whistle/direction handles. My apologies - do not want to mislead.

[jimhaleyscomet]

You only need an insulator pin on the middle rail (hot). The external grounded rails can be continous. Insulated rail pins are cheap and easy once you start using them (just make sure to get O pins for O31 track or O-27 pins for O-27 track. I would not rush into purchasing a transformer. I would pick up another "low wattage" transformer by purchasing a discounted set that would include some track you need as well. Or I would get a cheap transformer off e-bay or at a train show. Then I would allow each transformer operate a loop. Keeping in phase is pretty simple. I just run a short jumper wire across the center rail with the insulating pin with the transformers on low (no engines on the track). If it sparks they are not in phase and I reverse the leads to the lock on to fix. If it does not spark you are in phase. Some one else here can let you know if this is a "safe" way to check it but I have never had any problems.

I prefere O-27 track because it is low cost and k-line makes awsume inexpensive O-27 switches that you can run from a separate transformer at full power. This is HIGHLY recommended if you want switches to operate fast to prevent derailments.

Fastrack is nice but much more expensive.

Jim H

Jim H

[Big_Boy_4005]

Jim , that method for determining phasing is as good as any.

By the way, if you look at the layout he has chosen, he would only need 4 insulating pins to seperate the loops. The center rails of the 4 crossovers between the 2 loops would be where they would go. As it turns out, if he uses all remote switches, all 3 pins will be insulated in those joints. Both outside rails have them because of the non derailing feature. Even if he doesn't do the 2 train control method, and has metal pins in the center rails, he still needs a lockon on both loops, because the switches take out the ground rail. Strange how that works out.

[lionelsoni]

If you think you're ever going to want more blocks, it's a good idea to insulate them now, because it can mean a lot of track removal to do it later. You can always jumper around the gaps.

Having the transformers in phase is necessary only if you're going to run a train from a block powered by one transformer into a block powered by the other. Lots of folks do this; but I perennially rant against it. The problem is that, unless the transformers are set to exactly the same voltage, there will be a fault current flowing through the locomotive pickups between the blocks. If you are using a Lionel dual-control transformer, there is no circuit-breaker protection in this case.

A better arrangement is to use a single-pole-double-throw-center-off switch for each block to select which transformer, if either, is to power the block. Then keep each train connected to the same transformer as it moves around the layout. Nevertheless, it is a good idea to have the transformers in phase, since sooner or later you will make a mistake and cross between transformers. Having them in phase at least minimizes the arcing. (For accessories, the phase doesn't matter.)

Some modern "transformers" are not really. They synthesize their output voltage by various techniques, which do not necessarily produce voltage waveforms that can be connected together in any phase relationship. This is another reason to stick with reliable earlier transformers.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright
Editing: I am getting more of my senior "moments". I meant a 1033 or 1044 transformer - the 90 watt post war favorites with the speed and whistle/direction handles. My apologies - do not want to mislead.

Thanks - I was going to ask where to find an 1090, as I couldn't find it anywhere on the web.

And thanks to everyone for the great advise. The track is on its way here and I've decided to keep it to one train/transformer until the holidays. I'll pick up another transformer then, once I review the wiring book and your advise. I definitely know where to come for help! [:)]