The color of water

[FJ and G]

about half of the articles I read about water say to paint the seabed black when modeling harbor (or deep) water and then blend with browns or sand color for shallows.

I tried that yesterday and it looks ok. Only problem is the black matches the asphalt paving that I did for the harbor site itself.

I went back and studied numerous photos from model railroader and noticed that some modelers experiment with mixtures of greenish yellow and other funky looking colors.

So, gonna repain the harbor. And for the blacktop, think I'll make it a bit grayer to simulate weathering and dust.

Coloring of water is something for some strange reason I've always had a problem with. Other scenic effects come more naturally for me.

I want to get it right before dousing it with epoxy. The epoxy is about 3 years old, stored in my garage. Hopefully it will still work. I've heard somewhere's that old epoxy can be problematic.

[Jim Duda]

David...go to your local pond, lake, etc. and get a pint of it in a clear jar. Is it clear? Hell no! So why not tint the epoxy to look like "real" water. Your local craft store sells this stuff. Experiment until you're satisfied.

(click to enlarge)

[spankybird]

Dave,

Is this more of what you are looking for



[?]

[Jumijo]

David,

Water looks different under certain conditions. I notice mostly green coloring when I see salt water harbors in cities. Lakes and ponds seem to have the black centers, sandy colored edges. Mixing some green into your resin might give some depth to the blackish colored pond and enhance the illusion of depth.

Unless a road has just been paved, they aren't black. They are light to medium gray.

Below is a link to a Model Railroader tutorial on modeling water. It's about 1/2 way down the page.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=10&TOPIC_ID=32122


Jim

[selector]

I used flat black acrylic paint for the bed of my lake, and just confined the spray to the area that ought to have been the deepest. Then, I lightened the black with tan and green, and finally a light tan to the very edge. Once the epoxy is poured and brush-shoved to the very edges all along the shore, let is set and you will be amazed at the effect...if you have blended the colours as they lighten well. It takes practice...maybe on some cardboard? As for ripples and waves, do just as Joe Fugate says; use gloss medium and dab it in place, trying to keep the ridges oriented in the same way so that the resultant waves appear wind-driven. In the link above, Joe modeled a mountain stream that happens to be crystal clear..and did a darned fine job, too. I feel myself wanting to dive into that pool! The masterpiece, though, is his low trestle with the pebbly river bed. It doesn't get better than that.

[FJ and G]

Tom,

Your scene looks tropical; makes me thirsty for a Corona!

Jim D,

How did you get the waves to wave?

Crandell,

Yours is the traditional method, but Jaabat suggests mixing dye right in the epoxy. What's the difference?

Does it REALLY make a difference if the seabed is greenish and the epoxy is clear or does it look a lot different putty the greenish (or any other color) dye right in the epoxy. A bit confused here.

Also, can food coloring substitute for dye?

Jim, nice photos and descriipitons on that link

[Jim Duda]

Making Envirotex "waves" is easy but you've only got about a 5 minute window during the curing process (which can take up to 4 - 6 hours in a 70 degree environment). Just as it is jelling, stir the resin with an object -a narrow one will make smaller waves - to whatever wave pattern you want. You'll know when to stop as the waves will hold their shape. Since mine is a fishing lake, and I seem to catch more pike on cloudy days, the water always seems to look more "grey" than blue...at least it does to me.

[Jumijo]

David,

Most experienced people advocate multiple pours to create a sense of depth. If two pours are done, the first pour would be tinted green for example, and the next would be clear. All of this over a painted lake/pond/river bottom. Now you have three layers of colors working to give you the illusion you're looking for.

Most casting resin dries flat (level). You can create waves with matte-medium (see link) and a brush. Clear caulking can be used to replicate waterfalls.

Joe Fugate knows his stuff. I'm using his fine work as a benchmark and a tutorial. Fortunately for us, he is willing to share his knowledge!

Jim Duda is no slouch, either. Nice pond, Jim! Thanks for the tip on stirring the Envirotex! Didn't know that.

I'll bet Fine Scale Modeler would be another great source for water replication how-tos.

Jim

[spankybird]

JimBo is showing his age. The people in my lake are having much more fun.

[selector]

David, probably no difference, when you get right down to it. I have heard that RIT dyes are useful, and others have said that the cheap acrylics from Walmart work okay. I can't say one way or another because my experience is limited to my one-time application. May I suggest you do a small experiement, or better yet, drop Joe a line and ask him what he would do. You can take his answer to the bank. In fact, if you were to pose the question in the forum, you'd get some varied answers. Also, a search (my searches seem to be hit and miss) on that forum might yield several threads worth perusing.

I am keen to see how you make out. I KNOW you will have fun, but it seems so fastidious a craft at times...even daunting.

I know that I must redo my lakebed to get the shading better, but the pour, itself, and the flat black bottom were no-brainers. It looks entirely realistic when viewed at a low angle against a sky backdrop. There is where you get your realism, especially with the waves.

[Dr. John]

Dave,
I like to use gloss medium for water. It mixes well with acrylic paint, has texture (so you can create waves) and shines like water. As to color, I prefer a dark green rather than black (something between hunter green and brunswick green. I'd leave black for very deep water. And yes, I would feather in tan, brown or some other sandy color for the edges.
As to asphalt, I used to use Floquil SP Lark Dark Gray. Gives a somewhat faded look that asphalt gets after a few months. Only a freshly paved road is black, and even then, not totally black. Color has scale too! A few drops of white paint in your black can help. I've noticed in the deep south (especially in Florida) some older asphalt roads are a very light gray (almost a dirty white) - they even use black stripes on them for contrast!

[FJ and G]

The grand experiment was completed last night, using a full $17 pack of Envirotex (maybe I can use it to seal my deck as well, though it would be awefully slippery and look wet all the time).

Here's what I learned from the experiment:

1. While masking tape around the edges of the layout does work as a dam, the epoxy tries to find the tiniest spaces to leak out of where the masking tape wasn't smoothed enough. I found that I had to add a couple of extra pieces of masking tape. Fortunately, I had laid down an old painter canvas over the carpet in observance of Murphy's Law.

2. Your breath does work to get out the air bubles (the CO2 noxious fumes from your breath supposedly makes the bubbles flee away in disgust). However, over a fairly large lake you have to do some really heavy breathing and I found myself out of breath a few times. And although the Envirotex fumes are supposedly safer than Resins, the odor is rather disgusting and I was happy to find the lake cured by this morning. They say you can use a propane torch, which I have, but I constructed an abandoned wood railroad trestle across the harbor and didn't want to burn it down (although since it already is abandoned, the aspect of a burned out trestle might have looked good).

3. One pour looks good enough for me (I get my camera back next week so will post some pics). The reason 1 pour looks OK is b/c the bottom was painted dark and the depth looks pretty deep. Had I used a lighter color seabed, I would have done multiple pourings.

4. In the shallow areas where I placed small rocks amidst sand and gravel, the Envirotex crept up over the rocks and all of them now look wet. I'm unsure how to correct this, but no one but me would probably notice. Modelers can correct this flaw along the banks by simply pouring more gravel but out in the water, this isn't feasible if you want a small rock to be partially submerged. I think I'll take Envirotex to court and sue them.

5. I'm rather pleased with the results but if I had to do it over, I'd definitely use lighter bottom colors in the shallow areas and keep the dark colors for the deeper parts. Nonetheless, it looks prototypical and my druthers are based purely on aesthetics.

6. I unintentionally managed to add fi***o the harbor. I poured some blue and green acrylic paint into the Envirotex mix and unbeknownst to me, some dried paint flakes got into the mix. It was a REAL bear getting the flakes out of the harbor and some still remain and sort of resemble chubs or perhaps a few catfish, although I don't think catfish would enjoy salty harbor water. I may have to rename the harbor one of the Great Lakes.

7. All in all, it was a lot of fun and I highly recommend adding water to your layout. Judging from the above responses and photos, others too enjoy their ponds.

[Jumijo]

Definitely sue them, David. Water should not creep up on scale rocks like that. [;)]

You can touch up the rocks with dullcoat and a brush, or you can paint them with flat paint.

I take it this stuff isn't flammable if you can use a propane torch on it? That's a huge concern for me as I have several gas pilot lights down in my basement.

Jim

[Anonymous]

A point to keep in mind is that water--in its pure state--is colorless. Water simply looks to be a certain color depending on the sediment it carries and, most of all, the colors it reflects from its surroundings. That accounts for the ocean looking blue in many parts of the planet, and for lakes and rivers showing various colors depending the the activity of the water (how much "stuff" it is carrying) and the surrounding shoreline.

I enjoy modeling water features--lakes, ponds, puddles, rivers, streams, waterfalls, etc. At one time or another, I guess I've tried every substance I've heard or read about to simulate water (which is, in my opinion, definitely superior to using real water, which doesn't look all that "real" in a model railroading context).

I settled on Envirotex some years ago, and now use it almost exclusively. I've tried various other casting resins and so forth in the past, but really like Envirotex the best, by far.

If I'm modeling a pond or other similar still-water feature, I first assure that the bottom is completely sealed. As David noted, resins will find the smallest hole in your handiwork, and will most definitely end up on your floor if you don't pay special attention to this step. Even then, it's a darn good idea to place some kind of temporary/disposable cover on the floor under the area where you're working.

I use acrylic paints to color the bottom of the feature. I start with black, or near-black, in what are supposed to represent the deepest areas, and then use various shades of browns, greens, and even yellows in working my way out toward the shoreline. I blend the colors together in a thoroughly random manner when I'm applying them so there are no well-defined separations between colors--they all blend together so you can't really tell where one color ends and the next begins. I also try to lighten the colors a bit as I approach the banks, ending with a kind of light- to medium-brown at the shoreline areas that will be covered with "water."

If I want to embed items in my water--fallen tree that's partially in and partially out of the water, rocks, a discarded auto tire, etc.--I glue those items in place before pouring the resin, Since the resin will tend to "creep" up partially submerged items, including the shoreline, I make sure the select objects that can be gone over with model paints later on to disguise the areas where any creeping occurs.

I mix the Envirotex according to the instructions (very easy to do), and pour it in thin layers of no more than about 1/8-inch thick or so. I let each layer cure thoroughly before going back and adding additional layers, if desired or needed. I do not add dyes or other colors to the resin layers, but some folks do and that's perfectly fine. It's really just a matter of personal taste and the effect you are trying to achieve.

After pouring the resin, you will want to blow on the surface (gently is fine) to remove any trapped air bubbles. A small propane torch waved over the surface (but not allowed to touch it) will also work well.

If you want the pond or other feature to be perfectly flat, you really don't need to do much else except let it cure. I use a sheet of cardboard to cover the surface while it's curing to avoid having dust stick to the surface of the water.

I don't much care for perfectly flat water features, so I wait for the Envirotex to take on a sort of gel-like consistency, and then I use a large nail or other such metal item to pick and prod at the surface--lifting it, swirling it, poking at it, etc.--to the extent that for a short time it really looks like quite a mess. However, the Envirotex will soon flatten itself out again--not completely, though, and some very convincing "ripples" will remain in the surface. These will reflect (and refract) light in different directions, and they really give the effect of a water surface that is being acted-on by the wind, etc.

Making water features is, in my opinion, a whole lot of fun. Truth is, I find scenery building to be the most enjoyable part of my involvement in model railroading. I'm no artist, but it sure is satisfying to step back and see what can easily be accomplished with just a minimum of talent (along with some patience), and it sure is rewarding to have visitors comment favorably on one's scenery-building efforts.

[lionelsoni]

Allan, actually water does have a color. But it takes about 150 meters of it before the long wavelengths are completely absorbed, leaving only the green and blue. It is true that the blue sky reflects off the surface, but a large body of water still looks blue-green even on a cloudy day.

Here are some details:
http://ijolite.geology.uiuc.edu/02SprgClass/geo117/lectures/Lect15.html

[ChiefEagles]

On the old layout, I did a river. Used brown paper bag [big one] and clear over it. As it set up, wrinkled it. Had real rocks [tiny] embeded in it. Looked like what I see out of an airplane. Sure don't see any blue rivers. Actually some are almost RED [poor water quality measures].

[Jumijo]

Dave,

You don't waste any time, do you? That layout is coming together pretty rapidly!

Jim