New to 3 Rail

[Benjamin Maggi]

I am a very good HO and N scale modeler who is contemplating a switch to O scale three rail in a couple of years because I would like a layout that is more simplistic. While in the same space there would be less, swiching would be more more fun with working Lionel couplers, sound is easier, and reliablility would be increased with the larger size. Scenery and stuff would remain a scale like as possible, but I want a simpler style layout... thus 3 Rail O scale.

Having never subscribed to CTT or other magazines like that, I am in the dark. I want Gargraves track (or the equivelant, no tubular rail please) but don't know what other brands are out there. I have seen Atlas ) which is nice but I don't want sectional track in that sense. Specifically, what types of turnouts are available besides the Lionel ones if I want more realistic ones? And can anyone suggest any books dealing with the trains and layout planning in general? I can apply all of the scenery stuff already, but more along the lines of wiring for 3 rail, or engine maintenance, etc. Thanks all!

Benjamin Maggi

[ChiefEagles]

Well, Benjamin, welcome to the CTT side [I see you signed up in 02]. Kalmbach has a nice library of just such books [click on their offerings]. CTT magazine is good too.

[Benjamin Maggi]

Yeah, I was hoping to avoid the books/subscription thing because I already have lots of scale books and subscribe to several magazines. However, while looking through the web it all seems so tempting! I might have to subscribe to another magazine after all! [:)]

Well, I am off to the local hobby shop to see what they have. Specifically, I hope they have track templates and information so I can begin doodling track plans on graph paper. Nothing like seeing a layout on paper come to life makes you want to go out and build a layout!

[spankybird]

Just about very one of the major 3 rail manufactures makes there own track. Lionel, MTH, K-line, Atlas, etc. Gargraves is Tube track by the way. MTH and K-line both have flex track in about 30” lengths. MTH in scale track and K-line in shadow track, and of course GG has flex track. Curtis and Ross turnouts work well with GG.

A lot of it comes down to cost. Most of the new track is about 3 times the cost of GG track.

tom

[Benjamin Maggi]

I guess what I want to know is what is the cheap version of Gargraves track and switches, or do they have the lowest price? For that matter, is there a term for that style of track which is 3 rail BUT not tubular or has a molded on base? I am calling it GG track but maybe that is the wrong term.

[jonadel]

Welcome aboard Benjamin, you have landed on the right board for common sense solutions and ideas plus the price is right!

The only decisions you will need to make are which kind of track to buy and which operating system is best for you. There is so much good product out there you can't go wrong on whichever way you go. There are diehards on every front that contribute to this board in a positive way daily. My advice: go slowly and consider all the options.

It's a tremendous hobby that my wife and I really enjoy.

Jon

Here's our website that really needs to be updated (maybe January) that will give you an idea of what two rookies did.

http://jands.logicalgeek.com

[fwright]

Benjamin

As far as track planning goes, the biggest difference I found about O scale is the space needed for structures. O scale structures - even of small prototypes - are huge to HO and N scale eyes. Same with trees, hills, and bridges. Getting the flavor becomes much more the goal than literal scale models.

But just like with HO and N, your theme and priority of druthers determine (or should determine) what equipment you use.

If you want (and can afford) close-to-scale steam locomotives and passenger cars, then you will need the wide radius curves - O42 at a absolute minimum, with O72 being preferred minimum. 3 rail uses curve diameter, not radius. The O72 and larger curves bring with them a requirement for access in the center of curves, and often those hated duck-unders.

For myself, my primary enjoyment of 3 rail is the operating accessories. Those are best enjoyed at the edge of the layout - Lionel never intended the accessories to be hands-free! - which drives the spurs to be on the outside of ovals or continuous run; which in turn drives smaller radius curves, shorter runs, and shorter trains.

As far as track goes, Atlas, Gargraves, and others make flex track and the more realistic numbered straight frog turnouts in addition to their sectional track lines - they're just not available on the shelf in every toy train store.

I find your comment about Lionel couplers very interesting. Having worked in O 3 rail, On30, HO, and HOn3, I find the Kadee couplers far superior to Lionel. Of course, Lionel couplers were developed a decade earlier, and have been required to have backwards compatibility. But there is no delayed uncoupling with Lionel couplers, one knuckle has to be open to couple, and unless you have the couplers with tabs on the side, manual uncoupling is much more difficult than with Kadee. The Atlas uncoupling track is over an inch long, and inserting and wiring one in every place you need it is not fun. Even with Gargraves, the center rail has to be cut to install the uncoupling magnet. Having a switching layout in 3 rail is an exercise in frustration (compared to other scales with Kadee couplers) due to the coupler situation.

From your post I gather that you are more into the hi-rail end of the spectrum (close to scale using 3 rail track). That being the case, you might be interested in doing a combined 3 rail O/On30 layout. I have found that to be a lot of fun. I can play with O/O27 and those fabulous operating accessories when I want, and enjoy the more detailed On30 in a reasonable space. I can even sneak HO trains on the On30 track for the fun of it when friendly rivet counters aren't around.

[Roger Bielen]

Benjamin,
It seems nobody replied to your wanting other than tubular track. To my knowledge Atlas is the only one offering none tubular track, unless you make your own. I don't know the cost comparison, but it is more expensive than tubular and you would be best to use their turnouts with their track. If you opt for Gargraves they also have their own turnouts but many hi-railers use either Ross of Curtis with Gargraves.

You'll find that in "landscaping" the skills you have with other gauges carry into "O", I don't know about buildings in the smaller scales but in "O" many are selectively compressed to keep them reasonibly sized.

[FJ and G]

write: "While in the same space there would be less, swiching would be more more fun with working Lionel couplers..."
--------------

Perhaps so, but I've found the reliability of 3-rail couplers is either great or a great disappointment. That's the 1st thing I check when I take a train out of the box.

I've had some fabulous couplers and others not worth a darned. I've come to rely more on the finger method and using narrow shelf so I can easily get to them.

But agree w/rest of your idea that they are simpler and lots of fun; 3-rail trains, that is. Someday I may even want to toy w/G scale but got my hands full for now.

[spankybird]

Roger, MTH track is solid rail, both the scaletrack and realtrack. So is Atlas, as you have already pointed out.

Lionel, K-line and GG are tube track or some form of tube track.

[lionelsoni]

To expand on what fwright said, the track is not measured just by the diameter but the diameter to the outer ends of the ties, and then rounded to an integer. So "O31" is actually 14.142-inch radius and, when the ties are considered, actually about 30.5 inches in diameter, which accounts for its occasionally being called "O30". The new O36 Fastrax is an exception, being 36 inches in diameter between the center rails.

[Benjamin Maggi]

As to the couplers, I like the Lionel ones with the tabs on the sides that you depress to uncouple. Are they not standard on all cars, even with other brands? I thought it was a style and not a patent for Lionel.

As to non-tubular rail, I guess I need to be clearer. I like the Gargraves appearance with wood ties and a blackened middle rail. If that is tubular it is fine. I just don't want the three ties per section track with large, silver rail that doesn't look very prototypical.

Broad curves shouldn't be too much of a problem, as I will either design an around the walls layout or several shelf layouts connected together to form a layout. Operating accessories are not a big thing for me... yet! Neither is running large steam locomoiives or huge diesels. Of course, that might change.

Thanks for your help. I think I will check out the books by Lionel on track planning and maintenance.

[SPFan]

It sounds like you would like everything as scale as possible. Before comitting to one brand/style of track you should try and examine each of the posibilities. I think you'll see Atlas is the most realistic save the third rail. Gargraves (which I use) Ross and Curtis are similar to each other and offer wood ties but the ties are overscale and the rail is taller. Lionel Super O, which is no longer made, minimizes the 3rd rail best IMHO but it is only available in relatively small circle diameters and the switches are not very realistic. If you convert the couplers to coil actuated you can add remote control to each car. This would allow the most realistic switching operations and negate the need for uncoupling magnets cluttering the track.

Pete

[Benjamin Maggi]

My local shops here didn't carry many of the types of track, so when I go home to Rochester I will have to look there. I also wouldn't want magnetic uncoupling ramps, and part of the charm for me is the little tab next to the coupler. It makes me feel like an actual brakeman. Oh well, I can still look around to find a good book or two until the future. [:)]

[CSXect]

Everyone has pretty well answerd the track question and I only can add download the free atlas layout software as anything you draw with it can be copied with other track brands as well for the most part. If you do this be sure you are working with the O gauge library[:)]

Now as far as reading material I recomend CTT and OGR (O gauge Railroading) here is OGR forum

http://ogaugerr.infopop.cc/groupee/forums

K-line publishes a book on maintaining and operating older lionel trains, Mth also has a book for beginers

[dougdagrump]

Also, if possible, try to visit as many public displays, club open houses, etc to view what is in use and don't be afraid to ask questions.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by fwright

Benjamin



For myself, my primary enjoyment of 3 rail is the operating accessories. Those are best enjoyed at the edge of the layout - Lionel never intended the accessories to be hands-free! - which drives the spurs to be on the outside of ovals or continuous run; which in turn drives smaller radius curves, shorter runs, and shorter trains.

Me too, but I use a straight track along the front edge of my 5x8 layout, and place the approp. cars in front of it's accessory. Sure, the cars don't go anywhere, but it frees-up a lot of space, and keeps everything up-front. Joe

[Anonymous]

Another good O gauge forum is www.modeltrainjournal.com

[Benjamin Maggi]

Here is another quesion. I am looking for a specific book on construction of an O scale railroad. I read it many times after checking it out from the library, but they have no record of it anymore. Let me describe it. It involved construction of a LARGE lionel layout that was built in installments. It featured many loops and took the builder from the very beginning to the end. It had chapters on electricity, and specifically how to make better lionel switch controls using heavy duty toggle switches (he mentioned how he originally used Atlas ones and they melted). I also remember that he divided it into blocks, and one block was nothing more than two turnouts back to back with the feeded connected to the middle rail pin in between them. It might have been called "Building an advanced lionel layout" or something like that. Does this ring any bells? The author also talked about how he always wanted to include two turnouts that had their curved tracks connect and the straight portions led into a 90 degree crossing. Grr, I can picture the book in my head but cannot remember the title or author and would love to buy it. Does anyone have it and can tell me the author or title?

Thanks.

[csxt30]

I want to say the author might be Lynn Wescott, but I might be getting it mixed up with an old HO book. Thanks, John

[Benjamin Maggi]

Does Gargraves offer tours or have a shop? I am from Rochester, which is less than an hour from North Rose, and had no idea that they were so close. I should have because they helped restore part of the PAL Rochester Edgerton layout, but I wonder if they do tours or such.

[4kitties]

I'd like to help your decision along and mention that in general, conventional layout wiring is easier in 3-rail than in HO and N scale. (Command control systems present their own challenges.) You will have no reverse loop issues, and signalling is a breeze. I modeled in HO scale for over 30 years but I never got around to signalling because of the hassle and expense of using block detectors. You can easily accompli***he same thing in O gauge by insulating one outside rail from the other. That's easier done in some brands of track than others. Atlas track definitely works for this (that's what I use) and I there are others, but I'm not sure which ones. Thanks to 3-rail, I have a fully-signalled layout with working gates at my grade crossings, and interlocking block signals on my mainlines.

I will close by mentioning that in 2000 I decided to make the switch back to O gauge. I held over 100 eBay auctions to sell virtually everything I had, and I've never looked back. I smile every time I walk into my train room, knowing I have beautifully-detailed, scale models with all the hi-tech features, that will run on the same track as my childhood Lionel set. I liked HO scale a lot, but I've never had more fun in the hobby than I do now. Besides, I like heavy things and you won't find any 15-pound HO scale locomotives. [:D]

Best wishes,

Joel

[FJ and G]

Adding to what Joel said about conventional, I'll further add that if U decide to go command control, 3-rail trains, according to an article about a year ago in Model Railroading, is way more advanced than in the smaller scales. The article was a Neil B. sidebar to an article on how to install DCC.

Things like smoke control, assignments to locomotives, stuff like that. So do check out DCS, made by MTH or TMCC, made by Lionel and used by several toy train companies. DCS, IMO is more sophisticated but TMCC is probably a bit easier to use and is more widely available.

Some folks use both as they can be combined.

[Benjamin Maggi]

Thanks guys. I ordered a wiring book from my library about Lionel, and I hope it is current enough to include the two systems listed.

[ADCX Rob]

QUOTE: Originally posted by scoobster28

Does Gargraves offer tours or have a shop? I am from Rochester, which is less than an hour from North Rose, and had no idea that they were so close. I should have because they helped restore part of the PAL Rochester Edgerton layout, but I wonder if they do tours or such.

No formal tours - not much to see in the track making business area as such. It's a family business in a steel building in the middle of nowhere... BUT well worth the drive for enthusiasts in the area.

When the Roders moved the track operation, they eventually brought along the train business they acquired(from the widow of Graves' partner, Gardner) too, "Gardner, The Train Doctor". The storefront occupies the front/roadside portion of the building, has a really nice GarGraves layout, & has a pretty decent stock selection, especially for the size. Check it out!

Rob