Mechanical vs electronic

[1688torpedo]

Hello Everyone ! In reading the posts and topics about toy trains on this and other forums one will see such subjects as: " My DCS does not work" or " The Tmcc will not program" or heres one of my favorites: " The Electronics are Fried" So, Here is my question. Why do you guys torture yourselves with electronics that fry, Trains that have to be programmed & re-programmed etc.? The old Mechanical Lionel ,Flyer, Ives and other makes will run & have been known to run for a long,long time. Would like to see your answers and I do not want this to become a MTH VS Lionel type of deal. I just want to know what is appealing about Trains that you have to[banghead] in order to get running or even keep running. Thank You....................Keith

[Jim Duda]

Keith - the short answer is, some of us enjoy all the things the "new electronic stuff" does that the old mechanical trains CAN'T do.

Cars in the '50s got us around just fine and they were pretty much mechanical. New cars are heavily "electronic controlled" and offer things like GPS, kickass stereo, Climate Controlled interior, rear facing TV, DVD movie players, alarms, etc. Are they "better"? Depends on what the owner is looking for...just like trains.

Would I enjoy driving the hooptie to work every day? Hell NO! Too hot, noisey, uncomfortable, lousy gas mileage, etc...but when I'm in the mood, it beats any new car on the planet...because it's old and it's simple, and it takes me back to my youth. A lot of us like to enjoy the command stuff, AND we love to run the old stuff, too.

Sorry for the ramble...

[FJ and G]

Keith writes: "Why do you guys torture yourselves with electronics that fry, Trains that have to be programmed & re-programmed etc.?"

----------------------------
Some of us are gluttons for punishment.

Well, actually I agree with Jim D's "ramble."

When I'm not in the mood for S&M type punishment, I run my conventional Williams.

[Anonymous]

With proper care and occasional cleaning the old E-Units will
still function. However, when they finally do quit, they usually need
to be replaced as rebuilding them is just as tedious as trying
to reprogram the newer locos. That being said, the E-Units are
sturdier and will take much more use/abuse than today's so-
called "modern" electronics.

First generation home computers suffer from the same problems
that today's locos and other electronics do. However, the computer
industry (unlike the industry supplying this hobby) seemed to
make an effort to engineer out the delicacies with each newer
iteration of computer. Today's computers have electronics that
will perform better, last longer, need less "reprogramming" and
will put up with power outages and voltage variances better than
those earlier ones. How do I know this? I have several "vintage"
computers that I originally procured to do work-related tasks with
and kept them out of interest in the machines themselves. I have
computers dating back to the late 1970s that I still use and I re-
member the trials and tribulations of having to reset/reboot after
every flicker of the power. I have these machines protected with
several layers of UPS (uninterupted power supplies), surge sup-
pressors, filters, etc. I remember having to maintain the batteries
in these machines to retain the basic information needed to run
them (BIOS) and when the batteries failed, the computer must be
completely reprogrammed just so it would be able to go through
the steps to start and run. (POST) and boot-up.

Whereas the PC industry recognized these problems and engineered
appropriate fixes., I just don't understand why the suppliers to this
hobby can't do the same as they are utilizing the same hardware and
technology. Maybe this is something that us hobbyists should be
griping about instead of arguing which brand is better or how many
rivets does this or that model really have.

80+ years after manufacture, my trains are still running as advertised
whereas how many of these "newer" and "better" and "more tech-
nologically advanced" trains are going to be running after just 10
years? Food for thought.

Also, don't forget "planned obsolescence". These new electronic
features will not continue to be manufactured for an extended
period of time, so replacement/repair will become increasingly
difficult as time progresses. You won't be able to get reproduction
circuits from a home-based "cottage industry" as it is impossible
to construct ICs (integrated circuits) in your home machine shop.
At least 90% of the "old tech" is reproducible by a fairly skilled
home machinist. Heck, the old motors can be stripped down to
the side plates and rebuilt with simple had tools. armatures and
brushes can be remanufactured by a good electric motor shop.

In keeping with the request of the original poster, I didn't bring any
brand names into this as it simply is not needed. It has nothing
to do with brands and everything to do with technology and manu-
facturing. After all, in reality ALL of the new trains come form the
SAME PLACE so branding is just a "formality". Just like TVs and
computers and most otherelectronic gear.

[Dr. John]

Like Jim said, there are pros and cons to both. I like the old, mechanical stuff because: A) It's less expensive and B) I can do SOME work on it.

Having said that, I admire the stuff that modern electronics provides: command control, sound, etc. For now I will stay with conventional stuff.

[Anonymous]

As a side note and to be fair on the subject...If we didn't have
electronics we wouldn't have these wonderful forums to find
info and swap stories on. Jim Duda has the right outlook!

Yeah Jim, I have a new electronically controlled Harley that I
ride most of the time, but I still ahve my 30+ year old kick-
start bike that I, too, ride off and on to enjoy those simpler
times. Thank you for the comments. Very good!

[Roger Bielen]

I enjoy the remote control capability, a constant voltage is used, and being able to run more than one train on a track without complicated block wiring.

[laz 57]

I have both types on two layouts. One for conventional and one for command. Like JIMBO says "A lot of us like to enjoy the command stuff, AND we love to run the old stuff, too." Thats a DITTO for me.
laz57

[1688torpedo]

Hello Everyone ! Good Answers so far. The reason for my query is that whenever I go to a Train Shop or Show I'll usually hear comments like: These Electronic Trains will be Paperweights in 50 years or that the replacement electronics are hard & expensive to get. With that in mind if I ever have a layout,Most likely it will be conventional with a ZW or a V Transformer for a power supply. Keep the answers coming. Thank You Everyone.[:)]..................Keith

[Anonymous]

I just dont like plastic, thats all i can say. I buy metal trains, so this keeps me out of the "electronic gremlins" domain. I have an old ives 3251, that i run on the layout. Its been through 2 sets of roller pickups since i owned it, three if you count the worn originals i replaced. Its never needed anything but rollers and brushes, and runs great after 90 years of hard service. I dont want to offend anyone but i dont think any new trains could do that.

[espeefoamer]

What do you do if your wind-up train runs down on the back side of the layout[:(!]?
No thanks,I'll stick with my electric trains[:)].

[Anonymous]

If I couldn't run command, I wouldn't run at all.

[csxt30]

Hi Keith ! Well my thoughts are, without sound, is good, but w/sound, it's a whole new dimension! Add sound for the kids & their attention span lengthens. Also today with all the video games kids have, I think the sound & command control & DCS helps bring some kids in & compete with the video games. Adults, like myself anyway, looking for more scale realism, realize that real trains have sound. I realize this may cost more, but we really can't get every one they make anyway. I like a mix of old & new, like PW cars with an eng. with sound. When the grandkids come, that's when the sound really pays off! Wouldn't you know though, that the only TMCC diesel I have , only works in coventional, so my command caboose can't talk back & fourth to the eng. till I get it fixed, but if it was working & could put it in Command, the kids could hear them talk back & forth, and use the coil couplers to make a set out, and kids just love that kind of stuff. The command aquarium car makes sounds for the kids & can enable you to set out part of the train with the coil couplers, great for kids! Wi***hey would make more cars to command like that, especially if a person like switching & making up trains. Anyway, my MTH steam eng has really great sounds, I believe, so I do have a little of both right now, & just think how many kids never heard what a real steam eng. sounded like!! Now they can know a little bit more. Ok, thanks, John

[Anonymous]

For me, there are two major benefits of the new electronics in the engines:
1. I love the Lionel sounds. So amazing. It is like having the actual steam locomotive right there in your house! I really blow those whistles a lot, so it really adds to my enjoyment of the trains.
2. The ability to start at a slower speed (rather than jumping from 0 to 60 just to get the train to move) is a really nice feature of some newer engines. Also nice is the ability to run a long freight at slow speeds to simulate the real thing.

I do not use TMCC or DCS. I run conventional, but I enjoy the features listed above. I have my reasons for not wanting to run in command mode, but everyone is different. I can see that if I was into the command mode thing, I would have to have the newer engines. But for me, the features listed above are why I prefer the newer engines.

I might also throw in that the engine detailing on newer engines is amazing, and the lights on the newer engines are a lot nicer than on my older style engines that only have working headlights, but no actual working marker or back up lights.

[trigtrax]

I've always looked at the new electronics as overkill. It's a simple task to run a train around a track and to control it's speed with a variable transformer.

I actually bought a TMCC Comand base set up to experiment with and interface with my PC. After writting interface programs for it I found it wasn't worth the cost.
I never bought the DCS because the codes are proprietary and I'm not wasting anymore time or money on this issue.

If Lionel and MTH continue to offer "conventional" product I'll consider them.. Otherwise, Williams Retro looks better and better[:D]

[brianel027]

Recently there was an article in Rolling Stone on the demise of Analog recording tape. With the story was a photo of Neil Young, who has been a die hard Analog supporter and very anti digital when it comes to the recording industry. In his song "Piece Of Crap" there's a verse on how he went to look for an LP, but only found CD's. They were so digitally clean but they were a piece of crap!

I find some humor and irony that Neil Young, one of the leading forces in the digital control and sounds in our trains is also such a stalwart when it comes to the recording studio. Now I know of Neil's situation with his boys, so this is not a condemnation of his motivation in the hobby. But Neil is certainly in the minority when it comes to the technological advances in the recording industry.

While I personally won't argue that the electronic advances in trains have taken the hobby to new heights. But these same advances have also raised the prices of many many trains so that they are out of reach of many train buyers, certainly newcomers (parents with kids). With so much intense unforgiving competition between the various train makers, the emphasis seems more to be aimed at out doing the competition rather than making the technology more accessible, reliable, simple and AFFORDABLE.

Take digital train sounds for example: I think the MRC Sound Station is one the best devices made so far that offers both play value (kids really do like this with the pushing buttons), practicality (easy for anyone to set up), variety (a wide selection of sounds in one device) and affordability. And regardless of what trains you operate, the MRC Sound Station works.

I'm encouraged by the recent interest in affordable lower end trains like the RMT Beeps. This kind of product has long been overdue. I've always known the hobby needed this kind of product and that the Beep has been so successful shows me I am right on the money when saying this. I don't want to sound like an ego maniac, but I think I have a real solid grip on where this hobby NEEDS to go to be successful from talking to SO MANY families with kids - and digital has nothing to do with that success!

The Beep is affordable enough that it can be operated as is (low tech) by families, kids and budget operators AND yet it can also easily be upraded now to have command features. As Clyde Coil would say... "DANG!" The best of both worlds! This is the direction the technology and the hobby need to go in.... affordable and choice. What a BRILLIANT IDEA to have quality trains that are affordable, rugged, good looking, offering play value and some degree of "visual realism" with the capacity to be upgraded. The more the merrier!

From the responses above, even some of the guys who operate with control still enjoy operating in a traditional manner. In this changing American economy where many people do not have large sums of money to blow on single train engines, I predict that products like the "Beep" and the new Lionel Docksider are the wave of the future: practical affordability, solid construction with the option of adding the additional features that many (but not everyone) want to have in their trains.

[FJ and G]

Brian,

Correct, us operators using conventional as well as command control have the best (or worst?) of both worlds. More choices.

I have about 4 or 5 CC trains, which is the limit. The last several trains I purchased are of the conventional nature, as will be future purchases.

My strategy is to enjoy CC with just a few trains to prevent headaches from, say operating a fleet of several dozen. With that many in your stable, the statistical odds are that there will eventually be more electrical problems that require specialists to repair (as opposed to backyard mechanics who can take apart and put together a Lionel PW).

Happiness for me is "less means more" when it comes to locomotives that are CC equipped.

[lionelsoni]

I noticed as I pulled the electronics out of my MTH Big Boy and Big Blow that they were based on 80186 computers. It's only been a few years; but I imagine it would take quite a specialist to reproduce those computers and their object programs even today.

[Anonymous]

I like to run both command (TMCC and DCS) and conventional, but I almost always use DCS to control whatever I am running. I run my Dad's 1924 Ives Wide Gauge 3243 set from the variable channel, while running PS-2's and TMCC locomotives on other tracks.

Nice to mix and match.

Its all good, no matter when it was made, whether it is conventional or command.
None of it provides any particular headache-it all works well.

[Frank53]

I just picked up a post war #2350 New Haven on ebay, it was delivered today. Pulled a twenty car load right out of the box - smooth as glass and ran like a champion. It's 50 years old - give or take a few months, I paid $201.00, and it'll probably run for another 50 years. There's nothing in that engine that can't be fixed, and teh frustratino level is about zero.

That's just a few of the things I love about postwar trains.

Jim Duda is right as this subject pertains to cars and other things in our lives, but when it comes to trains, post war is value, reliability, runability and it has Made In The USA character which ithe made in Asia stuff of today will never have.

All things considered, I'm fairly certain my kids and grand kids will be able to run my post war trains long after I've gone and teh stuff being bought today is sitting on a shelf because it doesn't work anymore.