HELP ME PLEASE !!! DCS & Z4000 NEED MORE AMPS.

[Anonymous]

HI I AM NEW TO THIS HOBBY AND I HAVE A COUPLE OF QUESTIONS THAT MAYBE SOME BODY COULD ANSWER FOR ME ? I HAVE O GAUGE TRAINS, THAY ARE M.T.H. W/PS2 & LIONEL W/TRAINMASTER COMAND EQUIPED. I WAS WONDERING IF YOU HAVE ONE BIG LAYOUT & YOU WANT TO RUN SAY FIVE TO TEN LOCO'S W/LIGHTED CARS, I HAVE MTH DCS WITH A Z4000 POWER SOURCE WHICH I KNOW IS NOT ENOUGH AMP TO RUN THAT MANY TRAINS,IN THE MTH VIDEO THEY TALK ABOUT BLOCK SECTION THAT YOU MUST HAVE ONE MORE SECTIONS MORE THAN YOU HAVE TRAINS. BUT HE DOESNT SAY WHAT KIND OF TRANSFORMERS TO USE OR HOW MUCH AMPS THEY SHOULD HAVE OR WHERE TO PUT THEM OR HOW TO WIRE THEM UP TO THE TRACK ??? IF THIS IS POSSIBLE ? I SURE COULD USE SOME HELP HERE ??? WOULD BE VERY MUCH APPRECIATED. THANKS CYNTHIA (MINEZ)

[spankybird]

Hi Cynthia, Welcome to the CTT forum.


You have asked a lot of tuff questions to answer without knowing more about your layout.

Are you still planning your layout or is it already built[?]

Is it a loop layout[?]

If so, how many loops[?]

How long is each loop[?]

How large is your overall layout[?]

A Z4000 has two outputs for train control. This would feed to two cannels on your TIU (DCS) unit. Each channel can control one or more loops or only part of a loop depending on how large it is and how many trains are on that loop at any one time.

It also depends on the type of engine (one or two motors in it) and how many passenger cars (really how many lights are in each one) will also be on the loop.

I know this isn’t much help, but can’t really offer more until we understand your layout.

I have a 10’ x 20’ layout with basically two loops with DCS and run two to four trains on it with only one ZW for power. (check out our web page by clicking on the icon below)

tom

[jonadel]

Welcome Cynthia [#welcome] you've come to the right place for answers. I'm also interested in this answer as I have one extremely long run on my layout where I can run 3-4 trains at a time (the 'ol brain struggles with more than 4) and I have one F3 passenger train with 6 lighted cars that really sucks up the power. I have to be careful with running all the smoke units and this train because it has overloaded a few times. Tom's response is correct, need to know how many lights you have in your passenger cars and go from there.

The Z4000 is a wonderful transformer, I'm using 2 and I still have one side I'm not using at this time. They work great with the MTH TIU and remote, makes life easy.

I'm including my url for album shots of our layout, still not completely done but fun to see the progress, maybe someday we'll get that skirting on.

Jon

http://jands.logicalgeek.com

[ChiefEagles]

Jon, as a side line. We need to take Jimbo's LED lights for the back of cars and light our passenger cars. LED will not draw as many AMPS. I think it will make a big difference. Jimbo, work on this project for us.

[Jim Duda]

I'll need some help from my mentor, Bob Nelson...how many LEDs you want to put in a car might impact the value of the components. Stay tuned...

[Big_Boy_4005]

White LED's are running about $2 a pop. The question is how many do you need to light a car? It may seem a bit pricey, but if it saves buying a new transformer, it might pay. Beside that, the LED's will last a lot longer. Tough call. Feeling handy?

What may work even better and by far cheaper, is those little Christmas lights. A short chunk of them in series may be perfect. Certainly enough light, the question is the power savings. They would also be good for building interiors where they could be hidden.

[Anonymous]

You can get white LEDs from LEDtronics:
https://www.ledtronics.com/ds/l200cw6kb/
The golden white ones (3000K temperature) are good for replacing incandescent lights and cost $1.45 each.

Daniel Lang

[Anonymous]

You can get white LEDs from LEDtronics:
https://www.ledtronics.com/ds/l200cw6kb/
The golden white ones (3000K temperature) are good for replacing incandescent lights and cost $1.45 each.

Daniel Lang

[jonadel]

I think what Cynthia is asking about is should she use another transformer say at the half way point to take some of the load off of the primary transformer. I know that would help me also but I'm not quite sure how to do it. Has anyone here tried this idea? I know I've got several MTH transformers downstairs that I don't use but perhaps I should on that one long run, could be kind of tricky but yet might be a great idea.

Jon

[lionelsoni]

Jim, the white LEDs have a bit more forward voltage than the reds, but that's not very important unless you want to put multiple LEDs in series. That would be the best way to get more than two lights per car while using no more power. I wouldn't go above four whites per ballast resistor, so as to keep them lit at low track voltage. They can be wired in back-to-back pairs as for your marker-light circuit, with the pairs then put in series. Or you can wire two in series, cathode to anode, then put those back-to-back as a pair, whichever is more convenient.

It might be necessary to do something to diffuse the light, which is very directional. Perhaps sanding the end of the LED would do the trick.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Daniel Lang

You can get white LEDs from LEDtronics:
https://www.ledtronics.com/ds/l200cw6kb/
The golden white ones (3000K temperature) are good for replacing incandescent lights and cost $1.45 each.

Daniel Lang

Daniel, that's a great link, I'm adding it to my collection. Some of those are down to 75 cents each. There were also a bunch with wide viewing angles, 110 - 120 degrees. The golden whites would be best for passenger cars. For the switch lamp replacements, the less expensive ultra whites might be acceptable, since they are being covered with colored lenses.

We have gone off on a bit of a tangent from Cynthia's original question with all of this LED talk, though it is related to power consumption. I have to agree with Tom's original response, I think we need more specifics of her situation to give her a proper answer.

I am building a large layout, but only using TMCC. I am using a number of power supplies each larger than a ZW in terms of power output. The layout will be broken up into blocks similar to traditional non command design. Each block will be seperately protected by it's own over current device, though many blocks will be fed from one supply. I am going to try to balance the loading of all the supplies by asigning the blocks to different supplies in small groups, based on where I expect the trains to be at any given time.

I think the first priority is to get adequate power to all of the tracks, with proper over current protection, then apply the command signal. The thing is I have no knowledge or experience with DCS. Is the TIU the same as Lionel's command base?

Cynthia, I have reread your question a number of times now, and if you are asking about the physical location of the transformers, that is more a matter of convenience. Keeping them in one central location is going to be easiest. Unfortunately, how you hook them up with DCS is a mystery to me, though I know that it can be done.

[spankybird]

I have to agree with Elliot by keeping your transformers in one central location. Added extra transformer for a Command (DCS) is no different than adding it to a conventional layout.

Dived you track into your different power blocks by adding insolating pins to the center rail. Phase your transformers.

As for adding the TIU unit to the system, it is basically just taking the wires from the transformer to the TIU then to the track. Each channel of the TIU will handle on control of the transformer.

Until we know more about your layout, we can’t be more info.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Tom, doesn't the TIU only have 4 channels? What happens after that? The TIU is the source of the command signal, right? It has 4 over current protection devices in it, or those added seperately?

By the way, there is a catch to those great LED prices that Daniel found. You have to buy 100 pieces same style. I thought it was too good to be true. [swg]

[spankybird]

Elliot,

The TIU has only 4 channels, so if you need more that four power supplies, you add a second TIU and program the second one as TIU’2’ and add more power.

The TIU does have build in for surge protection. If you are using a post war ZW or the like, then you should still add a fast acting circuits breakers, as we all know the older transform breakers aren’t fast enough for the command engines electronics.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Gee Tom, I think this is another reason I'm glad I'm sticking with TMCC. Buying all those TIU's for my monster layout could get spendy. One command base is all you need.

[Anonymous]

This is one reason our local club went to command. We can use up to 99 handhelds on one command base. Right now we have used as many as 30 different cab ones on the same layout with each engineer addressing one engine.
We are using a large fenceing transformer for ac power. It is somewhere around 30 amps, and has different taps on it for varying voltage. We tapped it at 18 volts and it has been doing well.
Our farmer friends are watching the auctions for a larger electric fence unit as we anticipate more current.
ONE question, has anyone tried two transformers in parallel. If they are in phase will you double your current??
Dave.

[lionelsoni]

Putting transformers in parallel is risky unless you know that they are truly identical. A very small difference in their output voltages can cause a large circulating current to flow, from one transformer to the other, in the complete absence of a load.

[spankybird]

Elliot,

In your case I have to agree with you, but then again, most of use do not have 2,500 sq ft layouts.

I use one TIU unit to control my 10’ x 20’ layout and also the same TIU controls my second 5’ x 8’ layout. I can run two trains on each channel or sometimes three depending on what type they are. I do fell that 3 trains on one loop is a bit of a challenge.

[Anonymous]

I presently on my home layout have a transformer for each main line. I have 5 main lines and 5 transformers. One command base. Works well for me, but then I do not use DCS with the 4 output tiu. Dave.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

Putting transformers in parallel is risky unless you know that they are truly identical. A very small difference in their output voltages can cause a large circulating current to flow, from one transformer to the other, in the complete absence of a load.

Bob, that's good to know, but I don't think anyone was suggesting parallel wiring. Isn't the proper way to use multiple transformers together best accomplished by phasing them and using a common ground? The different throttles are then seperate hot sources, and can be used to power the different blocks. This is how I have a ZW and a VW wired together for my portable layout.

[lionelsoni]

Dave did ask: "...has anyone tried two transformers in parallel."

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

Dave did ask: "...has anyone tried two transformers in parallel."

Sorry Bob, I missed that.[oops]

[Anonymous]

Would two Z phased be similar enough to run in parallel.
I am now running into a problem with 4 different transformers on 4 different layouts with the common ground. Even though they are phased, there still is a little leakeage and my command engines that are shut down do have their headlights on very dim and also do put a load on the total transformer sees. I originally was going to run seperate ground wires to all 5 layouts from 5 seperate transformers, but the ground data will transfer to another track and if all engines do not have different id;s it is possible to call up two engines running off different power supplies.
Any ideas on how to solve this.
My only idea is to have all different Ids. Dave.

[Anonymous]

Bob: I know the sine 45 degrees is .707 for rms power, but doesn;t the diode besides haveing 1/2 wave for the ac also require 7/10 of a volt to turn on. So wouldn;t the ac to DC be voltage be half voltage plus an additional .7 volts. Then each time another diode is added it is getting hit by dc so just the extra .7 volts would be lost.
I know you can expect a 1.4 volt drop across a bridge rectifier as you have .7 in 3 forward biased diodes and .7 on the one reversed biased.
Anyway this is getting technical and I respect you knowledge on it all.

[lionelsoni]

I would be cautious about connecting even the same model. Transformers are usually "jumble wound"; so the number of turns can vary somewhat. Furthermore, the Z was made both before and after the war, and Lionel was not fastidious about consistency in any of their manufacturing.

However, if you can measure ac current, it is not hard to check whether there is a circulating current. Just make the initial connection through the ammeter.

The type Z does have the disadvantage that there is no fixed-voltage output. So any jostling of the controls could upset a voltage match.

Dave, I think you must have meant your second posting for another thread; so I am going to copy it and answer you there.