O 3-rail vs. S

[flick]

Hi all. This is my first posting to this particular forum, although I've posted to others on this site. I'm having a heckuva time trying to figure out what scale to do my layout in, and I thought I'd throw it out here and see if anyone can help me chop up my mental block! I've been reading and researching for months now, and I'm just totally confused on what to do. I know I don't want to do HO because I did that years ago and just want to try something different.

I had originally thought N because I like seeing trains run through scenery. But after buying a few items I discovered that N is, well, small! Next was On30. Nice, but it's pretty limited to narrow gauge railroads [:O], and that's not where my interests lie.

O is very intriguing because the other thing I love about model railroading is detailing scenes, and you certainly can do that well in O! But it takes up a lot of room. I'll have an approximately 12-foot square area in the basement to work with, and I'll probably get pre-fab benchwork of 2 1/2 to 3 feet wide for the layout. (Don't have the power tools or the skill to build my own!)

Then I came around to S. To be honest, I hadn't considered it much at first because I didn't think there was much out there, but now I know that's not the case--there are plenty of places to get track, locomotives, etc. And we were an American Flyer household growing up, so there is some nostalgic appeal as well.

If you've been kind enough to read this far without dozing off, please help me decide which scale would be best for me. I like the size of O, the simplicity of wiring that comes with 3 rail, and how many figures and details are available for it. I also like S because it's a nice size without being as big as O, but I am concerned about how many detail items are available. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Peter

[spankybird]

Welcome to the CTT part of the Forum



If you check the radius of ‘S’ gage and ‘O’ gage track, you will see that there isn’t that much difference in it. So you will need about the same amount of room to turn the train around or to make a loop. So the difference is the scale length of a run. In 12 feet, it isn’t that much either, ‘O’ gage being 1:48 and ‘S’ gage being 1:64.

Hope this helps some
tom

[spankybird]

BTW - here is a link to a site that has both 'O' and 'S' gage info on it

http://www.thortrains.net

[FJ and G]

they both are excellent scales. If you want to do toy trains, O 3-rails is best because radius nearly same as Tom mentioned and you get bigger trains.

But if scale is what you are after, then S would be the choice unless you have lots of room or don't mind having less train length in a given amt of space

[Dave Farquhar]

Peter, it looks like you're really thinking this through.

By detail items, I assume you mean things like vehicles, structures, and figures. 1/64 vehicles of course are plentiful. Figures are an awful lot tougher, but a scale ruler is your friend. Some O scale and HO scale figures scale out to something reasonable in S. The same thing happens in structures. Many O scale buildings are a bit undersize, and some HO buildings are oversize. And there is some stuff made specifically for S as well.

I'm into O myself, but I find myself looking over at S from time to time. I think I have good reason to do so.

It's kind of hard to go wrong with either of them. They both have appeal.

[TurboOne]

Hello and [#welcome] Peter, you are in the best position. Deciding what you like. Check out some train shows, and the link to thors trains. Go to some folks houses if you get the chance.

Enjoy the trains forum it is a great place.

Tim

[flick]

Thanks to all for the warm welcome and words of wisdom! For those of you who pointed out that O and S are actually pretty close in track size, I have a couple of questions. What would be the minimum radius for both scales? Assuming that I don't have layout room for the 85' superliners and Big Boy steam engines, but just want to run "medium" length passenger cars and freight trains. The other question is about terminology in O track that has always confused me. O-27 makes a 27-inch diameter circle, right? So does an O-42 curve make a 42-inch diameter circle? How does this compare to curve radius?

Thanks for the help,
Peter

[flick]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dave Farquhar

Peter, it looks like you're really thinking this through.

I don't think anyone has ever said that to me before![:D]

[laz 57]

PETER [#welcome][#welcome][#welcome],
0-27 is the type of track , there are two types 0-27 and 0-31. 0-31 is slightly bigger and a little more expensive not too much though. Both of them can be taken to diameters of 0-42 and 0-54. But 0-31 track can be taken to 0-72 diameter circles. 0-27 is a little less in cost. See what you would like too run but also look to the future and check out the engines that are out there to see what and how much you can afford to spend. Different engines need different track radiui. So check what is in your crystal ball first.
PETER personally I am hooked on the 0-27 scheme with my biggest radius of 0-54 and have 18 TMCC engines and love everyone of them. The choice is your and I wish you good luck.
laz57

[IRONROOSTER]

If you haven't already, check out this site http://www.trainweb.org/crocon/sscale.html it will give you a pretty good idea of what's available in S. Depending on where you live you may have a LHS with S, train shows with S or have to mail order, but I think there is enough stuff to keep you happy.

Diameter is twice the radius, so O27 track has a diameter of 27" and a radius of 13 1/2", O42 has a radius of 21" and so forth. American Flyer used a radius of 20" and up.

O27 also refers to some of the Lionel cars and engines that were made to run on O27 track. Most of the O27 stuff is undersized for O scale, some of it is close to S. O scale Lionel runs on at least O31 track and some of it requires O54 or O72 track - 27" & 36" radius. All of the American Flyer as far as I know will run on 20" radius track. The compatibles are pretty much the same as far as minimum radius, except for some 80' passenger cars in S scale from American Models whcih require 24". If you run medium stuff in O, O54 track should cover you. In S, 20" radius track should work.

I personally started with HO, moved to O, and then to S as the perfect size for me. I use scale track, wheels, and couplers. Most of the rolling stock is the same between scale and HiRail just different trucks and couplers.

While I would recommend S, I think for a Hi Rail layout either O or S will work for you in the space you have.

Enjoy
Paul

[laz 57]

PETER,

One more thing and I don't know bout you but as time goes by our eyesight shrinks?
Something to ponder?
laz57

[flick]

QUOTE: Originally posted by IRONROOSTER


Diameter is twice the radius, so O27 track has a diameter of 27" and a radius of 13 1/2", O42 has a radius of 21" and so forth. American Flyer used a radius of 20" and up.

O27 also refers to some of the Lionel cars and engines that were made to run on O27 track. Most of the O27 stuff is undersized for O scale, some of it is close to S. O scale Lionel runs on at least O31 track and some of it requires O54 or O72 track - 27" & 36" radius. All of the American Flyer as far as I know will run on 20" radius track. The compatibles are pretty much the same as far as minimum radius, except for some 80' passenger cars in S scale from American Models whcih require 24". If you run medium stuff in O, O54 track should cover you. In S, 20" radius track should work.
Enjoy
Paul

I've never been afraid of showing how dense I can be, so I'll ask away. If I have a 4-foot wide table (48 inches), does that mean I'd have to use less than a 24" radius curve to fit on it? Or could I use an O72 curve because that would be only a 36" radius? Or does 072 mean you'd need 72 inches (6 feet?) (What can I say--I was an English major! [:I])

Paul, I've checked out the track offerings from both American Models and SHS. You say that in S, 20" radius track should work. Does that mean if I use American Models 27" sectional curve, that I'd actually be doing great? (And would that mean I'd need at least 54" of layout width?[%-)])

Thanks all for the help, and for not snickering too badly!

Peter

[flick]

QUOTE: Originally posted by laz 57

PETER,

One more thing and I don't know bout you but as time goes by our eyesight shrinks?
Something to ponder?
laz57

Oh, yeah, I've definitely considered it! [:D] That's why when I ordered a fire truck in N and it was 2 inches long, I knew it wasn't going to be the scale for me!

[laz 57]

PETER,
The measurement of the curves are from inside rail to inside rail and that is whatever radius you want example half circle of 72 inch you will need 16 pcs. per circle.
laz57

[laz 57]

PETER if you use the 0-27 type track then you can use the 0-42 track on your layout. If you choose Lionels fast tract then you will be at the 0-36 inch track plan. Check
www.lionel.com
laz57

[Anonymous]

Ever consider N or Z scale? You could build an empire on a 4x8 piece of plywood.

[IRONROOSTER]

QUOTE: Originally posted by flick

I've never been afraid of showing how dense I can be, so I'll ask away. If I have a 4-foot wide table (48 inches), does that mean I'd have to use less than a 24" radius curve to fit on it? Or could I use an O72 curve because that would be only a 36" radius? Or does 072 mean you'd need 72 inches (6 feet?) (What can I say--I was an English major! [:I])

Paul, I've checked out the track offerings from both American Models and SHS. You say that in S, 20" radius track should work. Does that mean if I use American Models 27" sectional curve, that I'd actually be doing great? (And would that mean I'd need at least 54" of layout width?[%-)])

Thanks all for the help, and for not snickering too badly!

Peter

Peter,
Yes, for a 4 foot wide table you have to use less than a 24" radius. You want to allow for some room for the track since radius is normally measured to the center of the track. In the case of the 4 foot wide table 21" is about the largest radius you can use. (HO can go 22", but they have smaller track). O72 is 72 inches across a circle of track which is the diameter, this is the same as 36" radius. For O72 or 36" radius you would need a table at least 6 1/2 feet wide. This is a bare minimum, 7 feet would be better so that the track isn't right on the edge..

Yes if you use American Models 27" radius track that will be 54" across. Again this is track center to track center. You need to allow at least 3" on each side for a total table width of 60", but you'll be able to run everything.

When planning your layout it is a good idea to allow a little extra room. It is surprising how often you wind up needing an extra inch here and there. Also, scenery usually looks better if the track isn't right on the edge of the table or up against the wall, plus you don't want a derailment to wind up on the floor.

No snickering , there are a lot of numbers and concepts here. Most of us who have built layouts have been surprised when we actually get to construction. First layouts are learning experiences.
Enjoy
Paul

[lionelsoni]

Here are the radii of track available in the O27 profile:

O27 12.5"
O34 15.75" (Marx)
O42 20.25"
O54 26.375"
O72 35.25"

These are the radius to the center rail. The overall diameter is twice this, plus the 2-inch length of the ties. The nominal size is the approximate overall diameter.

You can get tangent (straight) track in 36" lengths from K-Line and 4-section lengths (about 35 3/8") from Lionel.

[Anonymous]

One thing that should be mentioned is that just because 27" diameter is available, that doesn't mean it's the best thing to use. I use 027, but I don't run long equipment on it, I prefer to use at least 042 for most of my stuff! Many modelers that have scale size equipment use 072.

I notice that you had Flyer before... if you some nostalgia feelings for that, and want to run scale size equipment in limited space, that's probably enough reason to chose S scale. The only reason not to chose S at this point is if you really really like what you see in O gauge better! I think it's an emotional thing.... which one really strikes your fancy? What's your gut feeling after looking at both?

[flick]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Santafekent


I notice that you had Flyer before... if you some nostalgia feelings for that, and want to run scale size equipment in limited space, that's probably enough reason to chose S scale. The only reason not to chose S at this point is if you really really like what you see in O gauge better! I think it's an emotional thing.... which one really strikes your fancy? What's your gut feeling after looking at both?

Gut feeling is the perfect way to put it, but even there I'm having trouble! I just got back from an LHS where they have a layout with all scales on it for comparison purposes. The guy working there was extremely friendly and patient (we need more of those in the stores!). Every single thing, gut feeling, told me O 3-rail. But then I would keep coming back to the size issue--I could fit more scenery, structures, and detail in S scale than in O. I just don't know if that's enough to outweigh all the other things I like about O!

This is really helping me, guys. I appreciate it. Keep 'em coming!

Peter

[Dave Farquhar]

Peter, one thing to consider is that a lot of equipment, whether you're running S or O gauge, will handle tighter curves if you ease into the curves. Take this example. Normally on the 4-foot side of the table you'd do a series of straight-curve-curve-straight-straight-curve-curve-straight to get around it. Well, if you do O72-O54-O42-O42-O42-O54-O72, you get around the table in pretty much the same space, but since you didn't abruptly slam the locomotive into a sharp 45-degree turn from a long straightaway, an awful lot of locomotives will make the turn easily. So you gain most of the benefit of O72, but without having to make a museum-sized layout. The resulting track looks more like a football than an oval. Some people have found that by easing into curves, a lot of locomotives that you wouldn't dream of negotiating O27 can do it.

The principle applies regardless of the curves you use. Just experiment to find the number and combination of track pieces you need to make the transition you want.

The same trick works fine in S, but I'm not familiar with the most common curve sizes in S.

Oh, and in case you're wondering, yes, O27 *does* take up less space than S. Many early O gauge trains weren't made to scale and were severely undersized, and the makers sold their cheap O gauge trains with 27-inch loops of track. Lionel continued the tradition. Generally the trains intended for O27 track are scaled at about 1:64, like S scale. This confuses the living daylights out of everyone.

I believe that people have made smaller-radius S track, and some S gauge equipment does just fine on it, but I don't know if they were messing with flex track to do it, or if they were using custom track, or if someone actually makes small-radius track intended for trolleys and the like.

Anyway... Another thing you can do, if you want O54 but can't fit it on your 4x8, is to put an extension on the table. Get a 4x8 sheet and have the lumberyard rip it into 2x4 sections and attach them to your 4x8 tables to turn them into 6x8s or whatever. That'll give you room for O54 without shedding too many tears. And you can transition into your O54s with O72s to get larger locomotives working. Inner loops can use smaller-radius track, and you can run smaller locomotives on any inner loops you may have. Real railroads do this too. UP didn't run its Big Boys throughout its entire system.

[cmrj]

Sounds like S scale going to be your choice ,The lionel catalog has some nice choice's of motive power and acc's. for American flyer not large but a start . I like O my self had 3 HO layout's before I moved into the house I'm in now. Like HO S can be a wireing NITEMARE, relay's extra toggle's. check out some of the Sunday photo's several of the guy's manage to get a lot rail roading in a small area. Good luck and have fun MIKE [#welcome]

[3railguy]

If I was to do it all over, I would not of gotten married and chosen two rail O scale.

[Anonymous]

Well Peter, the size difference between O and S is not that big (to me anyway). If you like what you see in O Gauge, go with it. The "traditional" size stuff is great and doesn't take much more room than S scale (it's pretty close as others have said. And there are lots of great choices at low cost, even with sound (which I love). The 3-rail track also offers some real advantages in dealing with reversing tracks, and for triggering accessories. You just can't go wrong with it. You can even add in an S gauge track somewhere if you want!

[flick]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dave Farquhar

Peter, one thing to consider is that a lot of equipment, whether you're running S or O gauge, will handle tighter curves if you ease into the curves. Take this example. Normally on the 4-foot side of the table you'd do a series of straight-curve-curve-straight-straight-curve-curve-straight to get around it. Well, if you do O72-O54-O42-O42-O42-O54-O72, you get around the table in pretty much the same space, but since you didn't abruptly slam the locomotive into a sharp 45-degree turn from a long straightaway, an awful lot of locomotives will make the turn easily. So you gain most of the benefit of O72, but without having to make a museum-sized layout. The resulting track looks more like a football than an oval. Some people have found that by easing into curves, a lot of locomotives that you wouldn't dream of negotiating O27 can do it.

Dave, I had considered doing just that with easements, and your posting makes me more confident of it. I really will just accept that I won't be able to have the longest equipment in my space, and that's fine. The LHS I went to today had displays of various passenger cars in sets of 15", 18", and 21", and I actually liked the 15" more. They were plenty big enough for me; the 21s actually looked too big! So maybe with a judicious use of easements, and stretching my turnaround widths a bit, I can do this. I noticed that lots of equipment says that it can handle O31 and O42 curves, so maybe I'll be OK after all.

I just hope to be able to decide so I can get to the fun part in all this!

Peter

[flick]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Santafekent

Well Peter, the size difference between O and S is not that big (to me anyway). If you like what you see in O Gauge, go with it. The "traditional" size stuff is great and doesn't take much more room than S scale (it's pretty close as others have said. And there are lots of great choices at low cost, even with sound (which I love). The 3-rail track also offers some real advantages in dealing with reversing tracks, and for triggering accessories. You just can't go wrong with it. You can even add in an S gauge track somewhere if you want!

What do you mean by "traditional size stuff"? O-27? Or just "medium-length" equipment? And I really can't wait to get my locos with sound too!

I really wish I could get my head around this once and for all. Seems like my only concern still is how many more buildings, figures, and other details I could fit on an S layout as opposed to O. Then again, there's not as many details available in S, so it's a wash! [:D]

Just imagine how sick my wife is of hearing about all of this![zzz]

Peter

[Dave Farquhar]

Ah, the traditional versus everything else question...

O27: 1:64 (give or take) scale cars on O gauge trucks

"Traditional": Larger, but not quite 1:48-scale cars on O gauge trucks. Lionel made use of selective compression to make cars and especially locomotives work on O-31 track. A lot of it will also work on O-27 track.

"High rail": Exact or near-exact 1:48 scale cars on the same O gauge trucks as O27 or traditional. Far fewer compromises are made, hence the "O-72 minimum" you may see on some equipment.

I call the third "high rail" for lack of a better name for it. It's a relatively recent development (last 10-15 years or so) where 3-rail is getting more and more exacting in its standards for scale and detail, at the expense of durability and being able to run on O-31 track.

S scale has similar distinctions, but with a smaller number of manufacturers, the lines are much more blurred. On one hand you've got American Models and S-Helper making scale models with lots of detail. In the middle you've got Lionel, with its occasional new releases. And on the toy train end you've got Lionel with its American Flyer reissues, and even further down that end you've got K-Line, which has dusted off the Marx O27 tooling and is putting S gauge trucks on old O27 cars and selling them cheap. But since Marx wasn't too concerned with scale, some stuff is closer to 1:64 than others, so the reaction to K-Line's stuff has been mixed. But it's cheap.

I hope this helps and we're not giving you information overload.

[flick]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Dave Farquhar


S scale has similar distinctions, but with a smaller number of manufacturers, the lines are much more blurred. On one hand you've got American Models and S-Helper making scale models with lots of detail. In the middle you've got Lionel, with its occasional new releases. And on the toy train end you've got Lionel with its American Flyer reissues, and even further down that end you've got K-Line, which has dusted off the Marx O27 tooling and is putting S gauge trucks on old O27 cars and selling them cheap. But since Marx wasn't too concerned with scale, some stuff is closer to 1:64 than others, so the reaction to K-Line's stuff has been mixed. But it's cheap.

I hope this helps and we're not giving you information overload.

Definitely not information overload! This is how I often make decisions--gather as much info as I can, research, get other opinions, etc. I appreciate everyone's input.

If I go with S, I'd go with the SHS and American Models stuff. Speaking of which, I saw somewhere that you can get their stuff with AF wheels or Code 110 wheels. Does that mean that they only run on Code 110 rail, or is it just their way of something tinplate vs. scale wheels?

Peter

[3railguy]

Flick, code 110 rail is close to scale. It is .110 inches tall (scales to 7" tall). A tad taller than HO code 100 rail which is .10 inches tall and American Flyer flanges will bounce on the spikes. You are looking at American Models and S Helper? That is scale sized so it sounds like your're attracted to scale sized stuff. Postwar Flyer is pretty close to scale too. If you go with hi rail O gauge, you'll need lots of room so S gauge may be a better choice. Gargraves S gauge track is a good choice. It is cheap and realistic.

If you have a taste for Vintage American Flyer as well as the stuff by American models and S helper, S gauge hi rail may be the way to go. Lionel's new American Flyer Mikado is pretty breath taking and may be a sign of what's to come from overseas. Now if you ever get your hands on an American Flyer 336 challenger with smoke and mechanical choo choo, you will be very, very glad you picked S gauge.

I advise you not to choose scale S scale because Bob Keller will ask you to post on the Model Railroader forum.

Traditional 027 stuff is nice but, it ain't like scale. It is closer to 1/55 than 1/64. If you like scale and don't have a lot of room, S gauge may be your best choice..

[IRONROOSTER]

Code 110 wheels are indeed scale, the 110 refers to the width of the wheel in thousandths of an inch, this page http://trainweb.org/proto64/introduction.htm shows the differences between code 124, 110, and 88 as well comparing them to the protoype. Hi Rail (or AF) wheels are 172 and have deeper flanges. They both will run on track from American Models which is code 148 and S Helper which is code 125. However, Amercian Models turnouts require a modification for scale wheels, S Helper uses a closed frog system that allows both to run. Hi Rail wheels also run on AF track, Scale wheels also run on code 100 and smaller track.

Hi Rail uses truck mounted (talgo) couplers which allows the sharper curves. Using body mounted couplers and scale wheels generally requires larger radius curves of 36" or 48" depending on equipment length to be run. S Helper cars and diesels come set up with AF wheels and couplers, but also include the 110 wheels to allow conversion to scale, the modeler has to buy scale couplers separately but the cars have mounting pads for Kadee S scale couplers. Steam locomotives come in either AF or scale. American Models cars and locomotives come either with AF wheels and couplers or Scale wheels and dummy couplers. American Flyer and K Line come with AF and don't have a scale option. There are other manufacturers and you have to check each one to see what their options are.

Enjoy
Paul