Remote switches (1122) O gauge not working properly, please HELP

[Anonymous]

Hi,

I have a pair of remote switches for my modest layout. The insulating pins are in place on inner rails on the V portion of the switch. ("O" gauge,) The switch operates with power applied to track. The problem is that when a loco travels over the switch, it seems to short out, causing the switch to operate, thus derailing the train. Does anyone have any additional information on the topic, or online resource, or other advice on solving this problem?

Thanks,
Michael

[Big_Boy_4005]

Over the years the design of switches has changed. You may simply have the insulating pins in the wrong locations. I'm pretty sure that the straight leg insulated section was always on the short rail, going to the frog. It is on the curved side where the design changes moved the pin.

Look for a break in the outside curved rail. If your switches have that gap, then the pin belongs on that rail. If not, then it goes on the inside rail also leading to the frog.

[wrmcclellan]

Interesting,

I assume the "shorting" you describe is when the loco contacts the control rails (the ones you describe in the V portion of the switch). It is common for these rails to put off a few sparks when the loco crosses.

On to your problem - What direction is the train coming from when the derailment occurs?

One assumption is that it coming from the top of the V as you describe it. The switch has an automatic non-derailing feature that attempts to set the swtich to the direction the train is approaching from.

Two issues can occur here. If the switches are not moving freely, the train speed overcomes the ability of the switch to align the route in time and thus the train derails.

Second, these switches are powered by track power. If the power is low these switches may not switch promptly and again a derailment ensues.

GIve us a bit more detail and we will see what we can do for you.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

Thanks Roy and wrmcclellan for your quick replies. I'll take a look at the switch and "Look for a break in the outside curved rail...." etc. I am a newbie, and some of the lingo I'll have to pick up, e.g. frog.

I am not at home, and have had some computer problems, so can't be too quick on this one, but do hope to get this topic alive. I'll take some digital photos, and post them on my website. Then I'll provide a link and describe what's happening. A picture is worth a 1000 words...

In an attempt now, I'll explain. I have two locos 2025, and brand-new dock-sider. the dock-side is an 0-6-0, and if I run it slowly from the single-straight side, going into the switch, before heading on to the straight- or off to the left, the dock-sider will stop, right in the middle of the switch with no power.

with the 2025, I've run it from straight track, into the straight portion on the 'V' side of the switch. It appears as though the pilot wheels may connect the rails containing the insulating pin, there by completing the circuit, and the switch moves, and the train derails....

Ok, enough for one post, gotta get back to work now... will take pictures and post as soon as I can, and thank you for your help!!!!

[wrmcclellan]

FH,

The docksider may be loosing power due to the pickup rollers losing contact with the center rails (ends up on the plastic portion).

When you get bcak to us on this - let us know in the 2025 case if te switch was attempting to line up for the 2025 or if it appeared to switching away from the 2025.

One of the things that happens with some engines is the light weight of the pilot wheels only intermittently connects the power to the switch and it does not throw completely to align for the on-coming train. Make sure the rails are good and clean.

Look forward to your next post.

Regards,
Roy

[jimhaleyscomet]

You might try using a "shunt" test wire to go from ground to ground (outside to outside rail) on the outlet of the switch. Shunt the curved side, then the straight, then the curved, then the straight....... without any cars or engines and with voltage set to "typical" levels you run. Then you should be able to tell if it is your switch (if it does not work) or perhaps your speed is too high or pilot makes poor contact (if the shunt always works). In my case the switch chattered and it turned out my K-line switches were wired backwards.

How about it everyone, I am new to wiring but found this works. is this a reasonable idea?

[lionelsoni]

Sure.

[Anonymous]

I am running a light weight train on a 027 layout using 022 and 1121 switches. Since the train is light weight, the level of track power I can use is low---Therefore the controllers don't work very well. Is there a way that I can make these switches so they can use accessory power from the transformer---I know it is not advertised but I thought someone might be innovative.

[Anonymous]

Excuse me---I am using 1122 and 1121 switches--bad typo

[lionelsoni]

This has been discussed quite a bit. See these topics:
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=11825&REPLY_ID=87039#87039
http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=7853&REPLY_ID=50612#50612

[Anonymous]

Wow, thanks everyone! I did not realize these forums were so well viewed and populated! Here's an update. First, I do not have pictures yet, and am sorry. As a fater of two, and one on the way, working full time, building a new computer (my Dell broke-don't buy one from them), and blizzard '05 hitting greater Boston area, I simply haven't had time. But on with the switches.

The Small switcher engine, the new Lionel one, very nice, like it a lot, but for the sound is kind of cheesy, works now at slow speeds through the switch. Cleaning the tracks on the switch seems to have helped there, thank you wrmcclellan.

The switch seems to try to automatically align it self, or at least center itself when the loco goes thru. but if there are any trailing cars, they get routed to the other side of the "Y" and derail. It seems like the switch gets shorted out and moves because of it. Is it possible the the engine is so long that it reaches power from both before and after the switch? (lionel 2025) Doesn't make sense to me that it would be made in such a manner.

I'll take a look at the two links, thanks lionelsoni

jimhaleyscomet, I'll try the shunt wire thing and see what happens...

Are there only two insulating pins, on the inside rails within the "V" section of the switch? What about the single-straight side, e.g. the bottom of a capital letter "Y" , do any pins need to be there?

Thanks guys,
Michael

[lionelsoni]

No insulating pins there.

[wrmcclellan]

FH,

You might try powering your track at a normal voltage level you use, but with no locos on it. Then push some cars slowly through the switch and observe what happens. Maybe you can spot the problem this way.

You could also do this with your loco if you lock it into neutral so the e-unit doesn't try to sequence while you are testing.

Regards,
Roy

[lionelsoni]

Just be sure you don't leave a car on the switch for very long with the voltage turned up. That will damage a coil in the switch motor.

[Anonymous]

I used an old pair of trucks across the switch, with average power applied to track. it seems like the switch is shorting out. If I roll the trucks from the split side, the switch does appear to move in a way to be a non-derailing manner. However, it seems to move all the way over instead of a more centered way. It seems that between the "X" part, I guess that's the 'frog', and the top part of the "Y" portion of the switch, there's a short that send the switch to the opposite side, beyond centering for non-derailing feature. ? Again, two things, I am a newbie, and I do not have the vocabulary to do this issue justice. I hope to use a picture or two to clarify exactly what's going on. stay tune, and thanks for your help.
Michael

[GPJ68]

This could get long....

First, there are at least 2 different types of 1122 switches. The early versions have gaps or breaks in the outside rails and short sections of plastic outer rail beside the swivel rail (the only visibly moving part of the switch besides the lantern, with the switch cover still in place). These early versions should have normal metal pins in all rail ends. The gaps in the outermost rails act as the control rail sections for the non-derail function. The later 1122 switches (along with the modern 6121/6122 brown colored switches) have continuous outer rails (no breaks, gaps, or plastic sections) and instead use plastic pins in the ends of the short inside rails to function as the control rail sections for the non-derail function. The plastic pins MUST be used on both of the short innermost rails or the switch will short out, switch wildly, go berserk, and burn out. Stopping a train on top of any 1122 switch AND leaving the power turned up can also burn out the switch motors - the control rails activate the switch motors even time they are connected to the opposite outer rail via the metal wheels and axle of most all car trucks and engines.

The few 1122 switches on my layout need a MINIMUM of 12 volts of track power before they will reliably snap back and forth as thay should. Anything less and they will at best creep or stick halfway , if they even attempt to work. The swivel rail must rest fully against one or the other outside rails (at the base of the "Y") for the train to traverse the switch, depending on what direction the train is travelling. If the swivel rail is only moving halfway before the train crosses it, then a derailment is the usual result.

Run the track power up to a minimum of 12 volts (without any trains running) and try running the old trucks across again, from each fork of the "Y". If the swivel rail is not already aligned to allow the trucks to properly cross through the switch, it should snap into the proper alignment as the truck approaches the frog ("V" portion of the switch track) from either fork. That's the non-derailing feature of 1122 switches. If the swivel rail isn't snapping completely from one outer rail to the other, then something is wrong - not enough track power to operate properly, something blocking, gumming up, or preventing the swivel rail from swiveling completely, bent or damaged swivel rail, one or both of the control rails have poor or broken contacts, etc.

Give the swivel rail a closeup inspection to be sure there aren't any rough, bent, or mangled edges, lips, or corners that are causing misalignment or rough alignment. I've had engines and cars bounce off a messed up swivel rail, even though the switch was thrown in the proper direction.

If you're seeing some sparking as the trucks travel through either fork, it may be normal - my 1122's spark at the control rails as trains cross.

The new Lionel engine may give you some real problems with getting the non-derail function of the switch to work properly. Newer engines require alot less power to get up to comfortable operating speeds, so you may not be putting enough juice to the track to adequately power the switches (@ 12 volts minimum). Older engines like the 2025 soak up more power to get moving, but if moving slowly may still not use high enough track power to also power the switch motors reliably.

One thing you've never mentioned is how well (or poorly) the switches work with the remote controller hooked up, ie. throwing the switch remotely long before the train arrives and tries to automatically throw the switch to prevent a derailing (if the swivel rail isn't already aligned to allow safe passage).

GPJ

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your replies. The switch does work via the remote controller, and I've also noticed that a "good" amount of power is needed. It switches well in both directions, although at lower power it has trouble going completely over in one directions.

I think these are the later 1122 switches, and I have the insulating pins in place.

I'm still trying to complete a few things, but hope to post a couple of photos in an accessible place so we've got something to help in our trouble shooting.

Thanks everyone, this is a really BIG help for me! Michael

[Anonymous]

Well, this has been a long time coming, but I finally took some pictures of my switch, and the problems I am having with them. Does anyone know what the designation on the bottom of 1122 (E) means?

Here is a link to some photos, let me know if you need any additional photos.
http://www.fuzzhead.net/DesktopModules/Pictures/PictureView.aspx?TabID=0&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en-US&ItemID=9&mid=10253&wversion=Staging

If you can't get to it via that link, goto www.fuzzhead.net, then click on link at top call "O Gauge". Then click on the left most photo under the "Layout" heading.

But like I said above on January 31st, switch moves when entering from the top part of the Y, but it moves to side of the Y, away from the oncoming train.

Probably the best picture is this one,
http://www.fuzzhead.net/DesktopModules/Pictures/PictureView.aspx?TabID=0&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en-US&ItemID=11&mid=10253&wversion=Staging
This one shows you where the trucks are, when the switch automatically travels to the opposite side, in this photo, that would be toward the curved part of the Y.

Please, help me, and thanks!

[wrmcclellan]

Fuzzhead,

Great photos and very useful.

My first impression is that your switch is somehow internally wired in the reverse of what it is supposed to be.

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/searchcd31.htm?itm=684

If you check the drawings carefully, the coil that would be energized is the one that properly alligns the switch for the direction of travel. Yours may have the coil wires reversed.

The 1122E is the designation given to 1122s built after 1953. Many parts of the 1122 E are not interchangeable with the 1122, and thus the reason for the E suffix.

Make sure you test the switch with the controller disconnected. I noticed that you used your own wire to the controller. I cannot immediately think of how the controller could cause this problem, but it may be worth a try. Note the link I provided also shows how the controller should be wired.

Regards,
Roy

[Anonymous]

Looking at this file, tc1122d.pdf on the web page you provided. If the trucks are on the switch, and resting on it between the Auxiliary Rail, and the end of the straight rails, 1122-38, 1122-140, the switch will continuous move toward the Curved rail. It doesn't align once, and that's it, rather, it's switches to other side for as long as the trucks are in contact. I refer you to this photo

http://www.fuzzhead.net/DesktopModules/Pictures/PictureView.aspx?TabID=0&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en-US&ItemID=11&mid=10253&wversion=Staging

Does your idea that the wires on the coil may be switched still stand? By the way, It doesn't matter if the controller is connected or not. Same things happen.

[GPJ68]

Fuzz,

Pictures ARE worth a thousand words, your's cleared up alot of earlier questions.

Is it just this one switch that is acting up, or are several 1122's doing the same thing? I tried to duplicate your problem with one of mine that I know has worked properly in the past, but to no avail. I've had your same problem on a couple of K-Line switches before, and it turned out that the switch was wired internally incorrectly from the factory - resoldered the wires to the correct rail strips on the underside and they worked fine. K-Line's are easy to remove the baseplate - 4 or 5 screws to remove (and lose). I've only pulled the baseplate off one 1122 - a real pain in the !@#@ to grind or drill out the rivets without fouling or loosening something else up.

I've also had a K-Line remote controller with some sort of ground problem that would throw the switch into a real fit. Never could find the problem, it metered just like all the other switch controllers (maybe it was cursed...or at least I cursed at it alot...).

If it's just this one switch, you may be better off just tossing aside and replacing it. Unless you enjoy the challenge....

GPJ

[wrmcclellan]

FH,

Yes I still think the coil wires may be reversed.

I still suggest that you test without the controller hooked up to make sure something strange is not happening due to the controller (which I doubt).

GPJ68 is right. The 1122s are difficult to work on unless you like a challenge.

Let us know how it turn out.

[Anonymous]

Well, I removed the remote controller and it did not change anything. I also hooked up the switch's mate and it behaves the same way. So, the conclusion I have at this time, is that the switches are reversely wired. It appears as though, the bases are unmolested, and therefore incorrectly wired from the factory.

Is this really the case?

Does this happen frequently enough to warrant consideration?

Why would BOTH switches be reverse wired?

What else could cause what I am seeing?

Is the switch suppose to auto-align with every pair of trucks that pass, or only the first pair of trucks? (It seems like it does every time.)

I did do another test. I used a thin wire to close the circuit between the outside rail of one side of the "Y", with the inside rail on the other side of the :Y: And sure enough the switch flipped the other direction!

I refer the reader to the same linked photo I posted before

http://www.fuzzhead.net/DesktopModules/Pictures/PictureView.aspx?TabID=0&Alias=Rainbow&Lang=en-US&ItemID=11&mid=10253&wversion=Staging

Thanks again for all your help. I'd really be lost without it,
Michael

[lionelsoni]

I think there are two possibilities:

One is that the coils are wired to the wrong control rails and terminals. The control rails are connected directly to the terminals by metal strips under the plastic which could not have been assembled incorrectly. But the coils could have been soldered to the wrong strips.

The other possibility is that the small pinion that throws the switch is rotated 180 degrees from its proper position. In this case, even if the proper solenoid is energized, the points will move to the wrong side.

Which of these two is the problem actually doesn't matter, since you should be able to cure the problem by rotating the pinion. There is usually enough backlash and flexibility in the pinion and the rack to do this.

The pinion also drives the lantern, which might also need to be adjusted for the proper indication. In fact, the problem may have arisen when someone rotated the pinion to reverse the indication, not realizing that the anti-derailing feature would be messed up. The correct indication is of course green for the tangent, red for the diverging path. However, on a toy-train layout, the curved track is often the actual main line and the tangent serves as a diverging path, which makes the reversed indication reasonable, if done right.

[Anonymous]

I am new to this and don't know an 1122 from a whatever.
I would power the switch to the auxillary power post rather than from the track and see if the problem still occurs. if you need a techinical manual to work with auxillary power try the Lionel web site for a pdf down load. Hope that this helps.

[lionelsoni]

The O27 switches don't have auxiliary power posts, although it is possible to tease the solenoid common out with some effort, as has been discussed. In any case, this will not alter the effect of swapped coil connections.

[Anonymous]

This is just a question from a newbie, guys. Could reversed common and hot leads from the transformer cause this problem? I realize the polarity doesn't matter, but could the isolation of the switch components get screwed up? If it did, it would affect both switches.

[lionelsoni]

Regardless of how the voltage gets to the switch, when the wheels bridge between the control rail and the outside rail, only the coil connected to that control rail is connected. The other is open-circuited. So, the one that operates must be the one connected to the control rail. If it moves the points the wrong way, it is connected to the wrong control rail.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

Regardless of how the voltage gets to the switch, when the wheels bridge between the control rail and the outside rail, only the coil connected to that control rail is connected. The other is open-circuited. So, the one that operates must be the one connected to the control rail. If it moves the points the wrong way, it is connected to the wrong control rail.

So we should put the trucks on the cars backwards?

[GPJ68]

Sounds like lionelsoni is on the right track for your problem. I forgot about one switch in the parts box that has the gearing fouled up. With some fiddling around with the rack and pinion/lamp holder gears I can reverse the direction that the swivel rail will throw when one of the coils is activated. His explaination of someone purposely reversing the gearing movement sounds more reasonable than the possibility of you finding two switches in a row wired incorrectly from the factory.

GPJ