Penny Trains More likely scenario has ole' J.L. making a deal with the U.P.'s biggest competitor, BNSF, for exclusivity.
More likely scenario has ole' J.L. making a deal with the U.P.'s biggest competitor, BNSF, for exclusivity.
Oh, yeah! And he probably would have sweet-talked BNSF into chipping in for the R&D costs too! That man was a genius in more ways than one.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
WILLIAM LAUGHLIN DC The part you left out was that Lionel had ALREADY signed the original deal with U.P. They were quite content to let the rest of the hobby world fend for themselves. Mike did ALL of us a favor.
Interesting, I didn't know Lionel caved on that, I never saw that published anywhere.
I think I know what Joshua Lionel Cowan would have said and done:
"What? You don't like all the free publicity and advertising I'm giving you by putting your name on MY trains? OK, I'll tell you what. You want to see your name on my trains from now on? I'M not gonna pay YOU, you're gonna pay ME!"
Don't think he wouldn't have done it either, J.L didn't fool around!
Flintlock76 Sheldon! Great to see you here! (And you folks should see some of the pictures of his home restorations! Wow!) I need to remind folks of something. Remember the flap 15, maybe almost 20 years ago now, of Union Pacific versus the model railroad and railfan publishing industries? How UP was trying to put the squeeze on both for some heavy payouts concerning the use of UP's (and the predecessor 'roads UP aquired) logos, heralds, and markings? Remember all the consternation in the hobby? I do. In the past railroads were thrilled to see their names on toy trains, it was free publicity! Hey, back in the 40's The Santa Fe, the New York Central, and EMD even chipped in to Lionel to pay for the tooling to produce Lionel's classic F3 diesel! But not this time, UP was after the bucks. Well, it was Mike Wolf who negotiated a settlement amenable to all, both the rail model industry and Union Pacific. As I recall, overall UP DID suffer quite a bit of embarassment, there was a lot of negative press concerning the mess. I'd be surprised if someone at UP didn't lose their job over it. So if you're a Union Pacific fan* and you model "Uncle Pete," give a little thanks to Mr. Mike. He's saved you quite a bit of painting, hand-lettering and decaling! * And the 'roads UP absorbed.
Sheldon! Great to see you here!
(And you folks should see some of the pictures of his home restorations! Wow!)
I need to remind folks of something. Remember the flap 15, maybe almost 20 years ago now, of Union Pacific versus the model railroad and railfan publishing industries? How UP was trying to put the squeeze on both for some heavy payouts concerning the use of UP's (and the predecessor 'roads UP aquired) logos, heralds, and markings? Remember all the consternation in the hobby? I do.
In the past railroads were thrilled to see their names on toy trains, it was free publicity! Hey, back in the 40's The Santa Fe, the New York Central, and EMD even chipped in to Lionel to pay for the tooling to produce Lionel's classic F3 diesel! But not this time, UP was after the bucks.
Well, it was Mike Wolf who negotiated a settlement amenable to all, both the rail model industry and Union Pacific. As I recall, overall UP DID suffer quite a bit of embarassment, there was a lot of negative press concerning the mess. I'd be surprised if someone at UP didn't lose their job over it.
So if you're a Union Pacific fan* and you model "Uncle Pete," give a little thanks to Mr. Mike. He's saved you quite a bit of painting, hand-lettering and decaling!
* And the 'roads UP absorbed.
I got this thing in the wrong thread.
S.J.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
My last MTH gut was a copy of the Ives 1134 (?). Separate gear train for the code wheel. Electronics everywhere.
Cleaned it up, lubed, ran on the club layout for a bit over two months and went "eeeep" out the speaker and it was dead.
Gutted it all out, electronics, brackets, speaker, contacts, code wheel reader, pitched it all, Dallee reverser, runs fine and QUIET.
If it wasn't for the mandated DCS stuff, with added cost, I'd a probably bought something. But NOT paying a premium so I can cut it out.
I sure did a lot of PS-1's over the years. Boy could you pick them up cheap when the PS-1's took a dump.
Good evening all,
I have to thank Mike Wolf and MTH for making standard gauge available again. I have several engines and many pieces of rolling stock from all three types of brands, Lionel Classics, Tinplate Traditions and Lionel Corporation. Of all the possible resurrection scenarios, the return of those particular products are the most far fetched. The tremendous decline in prices on eBAY had almost already precluded that possibility. For now and the forseeable future, I will continue to enjoy what I have and acquire anything else that might come along when the chance presents itself. I hope everyone has a good day.
Keep on training,
Mike C. from Indiana
I find the MTH engines I have gutted run just fine on normal track power. My belief is the electronics dropped so much voltage on the input, they needed more input to get usable power to the motor. Gut them, they're fine.
I like older cast engines. I am writing an article right now showing how to obtain something different. Or two. Or three.
Like this one, couple of articles down the road.
or something simple like fixing stack location:
There are 4 MTH locomotives and 3 MTH RailKing cars in my bedroom right now. 3 of the locos are on display (one of them permanently when not pulling tonnage: the Dreyfuss Century Hudson if you're curious) the N&W 0-8-0 is currently doing the honors on my little 4 by 6 oval. So I'm not completely anti-MTH.
That being said, NONE of my MTH locos are running the way they were supposed to. Or at least not the way they were "advertised" to. ALL 6 of my locomotives have had their electronic guts removed and all 6 are running on DC hot wired directly to their motors. Practically worthless on the resale market, but at least I found a way to make them move.
To be fair, I purchased the PS-2 20th Century Hudson, a PS-2 Santa Fe 2-6-0 and the whistle only N&W 0-8-0 (which came boxed with 4 hoppers) as stand alone items whereas the other 3: PS-2 SP Daylight, PS-2 Southern Ry 4-6-2 in green and a PS-2 MILW non-streamlined Hiawatha 4-6-2 came with starter passenger sets. (The GS is a bantam by the way.)
But all 5 of the PS-2 locos lost their minds after being run on an MRC Dual Power O27 pack, something MTH and/or MRC should have been able to figure out and warn consumers about long before my electronics boards went to the funny farm. Heck, even experts at Rockwell Systems Automation couldn't make heads or tails of them after they quit. They were just plain unusable. So, money or no, I stopped even thinking about buying a ProtoSounds loco a long time ago.
I AM sorry to see MTH shutting down. I personally believe that without Mike Wolf the O gauge realm would still be using postwar castings and molds just as they were around 1995 when the RailKing line appeared. (I purchased a "midrange" 2-6-4 with an air whistle tender for $300 in 1995) He forced the industry to innovate.
Your reasons for not buying MTH HO are sound ones Sheldon, obviously they don't fit your purposes so there's no point in your spending money on them. Can't argue with that.
It's for the same reason I have no interest in purchasing any of Lionel's "LionChief" only controlled products. I want that conventional control option, and if I can't get it from one manufacturer I'll get it from another.
"LionChief+" is another matter, the conventional option's there. However, at the present time they're not building anything I'm interested in that's set up that way, so the money stays in the wallet.
I do have a "LionChief+" locomotive, a GP20 with Susquehanna markings. It's a great runner, but I've only used the "LionChief" remote that came with it once, just to see how it worked. It worked just fine. However, when I was done with it I pulled the batteries, put the remote in a drawer, and switched the locomotive back to conventional control.
By the way, the hobby shop where I purchased the Lionel GP20 also had an MTH Susquehanna SD60, and for less money too, but I passed on it. At 17+ inches long it was just too big for my layout. That's the only time I've passed on an MTH locomotive for a Lionel one.
Wayne
Flintlock76 Sheldon! Great to see you here! (And you folks should see some of the pictures of his home restorations! Wow!) I need to remind folks of something. Remember the flap 15, maybe almost 20 years ago now, of Union Pacific versus the model railroad and railfan publishing industries? How UP was trying to put the squeeze on both for some payouts concerning the use of UP's (and the predecessor 'roads UP aquired) logos, heralds, and markings? Remember all the consternation in the hobby? I do. In the past railroads were thrilled to see their names on toy trains, it was free publicity! But not this time, UP was after the bucks. Well, it was Mike Wolf who negotiated a settlement amenable to all, both the rail model industry and Union Pacific. As I recall, overall UP DID suffer quite a bit of embarassment, there was a lot of negative press concerning the mess. I'd be surprised if someone at UP didn't lose their job over it. So if you're a Union Pacific fan* and you model "Uncle Pete," give a little thanks to Mr. Mike. He's saved you quite a bit of painting, hand-lettering and decaling! * And the 'roads UP absorbed.
I need to remind folks of something. Remember the flap 15, maybe almost 20 years ago now, of Union Pacific versus the model railroad and railfan publishing industries? How UP was trying to put the squeeze on both for some payouts concerning the use of UP's (and the predecessor 'roads UP aquired) logos, heralds, and markings? Remember all the consternation in the hobby? I do.
In the past railroads were thrilled to see their names on toy trains, it was free publicity! But not this time, UP was after the bucks.
No question, that is a very important good thing that Mike Wolf did for the hobby.
But I can't buy his locos even if I wanted to. They will not run on my layout. I still run DC, and I use Aristo Craft Train Engineer wireless radio throttles. And the power supplies I use put out 13.8 volts, because the HO standard is 12 volts.
But an MTH loco on DC will only go about 30 scale miles per hour at 12-13 volts. It takes about 16 volts for them to run at a reasonable scale top speed.
I can't even rewire them and remove the DCS board and have it work because they use higher voltage motors.
I also doubt if the DCS decoder would accept the pluse width modulated speed control from the Train Engineer, dual mode DCC decoders will not work with my throttles either.
But, all the other brands still use 12 volt motors in their DCC locos, or still make DC locos. So I can simply remove the decoder and rewire, then the other brands run fine and reach reasonable scale top speeds.
My other issue with MTH products is they look toy like. Much of the detail is heavy and oversized, thick cast on running boards, etc.
I like fine true scale detail, especially for those kind of prices. And fragile is not a problem for me.......
Sheldon
Billwiz Flintlock76 PS: I'm heading over to the MR Forum to see what they're saying about MTH, but NOT to join in! It's a bit of a of a closed society there, kind of like the grumpy old men on the "Ogre" Forum. I got burned there once or twice. Not all are that bad...I've posted on both. I play for both teams...I have HO and N, as well as 3 rail O and love them all. But yeah, this topic got a lot of posts in different directions. I still think Lionel should consider buying the HO line since they want back into HO.
Flintlock76 PS: I'm heading over to the MR Forum to see what they're saying about MTH, but NOT to join in! It's a bit of a of a closed society there, kind of like the grumpy old men on the "Ogre" Forum. I got burned there once or twice.
Not all are that bad...I've posted on both. I play for both teams...I have HO and N, as well as 3 rail O and love them all. But yeah, this topic got a lot of posts in different directions. I still think Lionel should consider buying the HO line since they want back into HO.
I could be wrong, but I suspect that HO has actually been a colossal flop for MTH.
If you pay attention to the comments on the MR forum, not hardly anyone says they have any MTH locos.
I suspect the forums represent only a very small percentage of the modelers out there, but I also suspect that forums like the MR forum, are very much a cross section of the HO hobby.
LIONEL and HO is another story, but the same story as MTH, a story of repeated failure for the same reasons. No understanding of who buys HO trains or why.
I worked in the hobby business from 1970 to 1980, I have been at HO since 1968. While the market has changed, HO is still the builder scale, the scale modeler scale, products with more of a toy or collector appeal have a limited market within that segment.
What LIONEL has done so far is not likely to get much traction, BUT, a lot of the MTH product would fit right into their way of thinking.
But if I'm right about MTH and HO, it would be no different at LIONEL.......
ATLANTIC CENTRAL But, I also defend Mike's right to do with his company as he sees fit. Sheldon
But, I also defend Mike's right to do with his company as he sees fit.
Absolutely! And I have some good ideas what he can do with it!
Oh, wait, somebody might take that wrong.
Oh, well.
Flintlock76 Penny Trains Wu Han Locomotives Limited? Peking Toys LLC? It could happen. Yeah Becky, considering "Pennsylvania House Furniture" became "Peking House Furniture" ( ) a few years back anythings possible! Then there's the political situation between China and the rest of the world which I am not going to get into! Wayne PS: I'm heading over to the MR Forum to see what they're saying about MTH, but NOT to join in! It's a bit of a of a closed society there, kind of like the grumpy old men on the "Ogre" Forum. I got burned there once or twice. PPS: Broke my word, I did say "Hi!" to all the names I recognize from the "Trains" Forum. They're up to 86 posts over there on this subject! C'mon people, you're just not trying! Are you gonna let a bunch of HO-ers beat us on this?
Penny Trains Wu Han Locomotives Limited? Peking Toys LLC? It could happen.
Wu Han Locomotives Limited? Peking Toys LLC? It could happen.
Yeah Becky, considering "Pennsylvania House Furniture" became "Peking House Furniture" ( ) a few years back anythings possible!
Then there's the political situation between China and the rest of the world which I am not going to get into!
PS: I'm heading over to the MR Forum to see what they're saying about MTH, but NOT to join in! It's a bit of a of a closed society there, kind of like the grumpy old men on the "Ogre" Forum. I got burned there once or twice.
PPS: Broke my word, I did say "Hi!" to all the names I recognize from the "Trains" Forum.
They're up to 86 posts over there on this subject! C'mon people, you're just not trying! Are you gonna let a bunch of HO-ers beat us on this?
Come on now, we like you. At least I do.
You just have to remember it really is an HO and N scale perspective over there.
The lost of MTH is pontentially very disruptive to you guys over here. In HO MTH means nothing. BUT, many in HO have always been upset with MTH about the law suits, about the incompatiblity (lets call in not full compatiblilty) with both DC and DCC, and to many MTH asks a premium price for what is not always a well detailed or accurate model.
So there are some harsh views, mine included, about MTH. And, actually very few people over there have any MTH product........
Flintlock76PS: I'm heading over to the MR Forum to see what they're saying about MTH, but NOT to join in! It's a bit of a of a closed society there, kind of like the grumpy old men on the "Ogre" Forum. I got burned there once or twice.
I try, but nobody rises to the occasion afterwards.
Michael6268I fear with their departure, it will leave a virtual monopoly to Lionel.
Getting back to Michael's original post, that could be a concern.
If someone's a monopoly, that can lead to being "fat, dumb, and happy" and figuring they don't have to try too hard anymore. Having a competitor breathing down your neck tends to sharpen your thinking and increases your efforts if you want to stay in business.
Possible competitors? Well, there's Atlas "O", but their forays into O gauge have tended to be tentative and half-hearted, almost like they want the business but aren't sure they want it. Their product line's erratic, it doesn't have Lionel's or MTH's variety. Know what I mean? Like they can't make up their mind.
Williams by Bachman? I'm not sure about them either. Bachman recieved a good conventional O gauge line when they purchased Williams, but as I've said before considering how they've gutted the product line it seems like they got it and then didn't know what to do with it. Unless they bought the line just to keep someone else from getting it?
Menards? The way they've come in going "great guns" I'm surprised they haven't gone all the way and come up with a locomotive line. Maybe now?
There is RMT, or "Ready Made Toys," but I don't expect much from them, they seem happy with the way they are. Small, on the fringe, and preferring to stay there.
Walthers? They're certainly big enough to swing a full O gauge push but again they may be happy with supplying the HO and N gauge markets and not concerning themselves with anything else. But I could be wrong.
I see some of you have a beef with Mr. Mike, and I'm sure you have your reasons which I won't try to argue with. But I'm still sorry to see MTH go. I'm hoping it doesn't leave a gap the rest of the industry won't try to fill.
The really sad thing is since the MTH tooling's in China you can kiss it goodbye, they're not going to give it back.
Ah. That would tke a massive change in attitude to actually listen to employees or consumers.
Possibly any employees who may or may not move have seen enough and won't exhibit those types of destructive behaviour.
The ONE time I got involved, when they were discussing moving into Large Scale, all the data on motors, gears, UV stabilized plastics and paints....employees went back, shared the data.....and "This is not ShXXXX'sTrain House, it's Mike's Train House, and we do it MY way". At least that's what the guy I was dealing with told me when he called me afer The Great And Powerful Oz fired everybody.
Look what it got them. Splitting and crazed boilers, drivers, horrible control issues exacerbated by moving to an outdoor environment.
The best thing to happen to Mike's Train House might just be that it no longer is Mikes' Train House.
Opinion.
Would strongly suggest that the DCS takeover team take a serious look at what Lionel is doing with LC. All the newer control systems being offered are wireless direct to loco as opposed to track signal based.
We have updated our post to include the news about the digital line: https://ctt.trains.com/community/news-products/2020/06/mth-trains-wolf-sets-2021-end-date-for-company
Rene Schweitzer
Classic Toy Trains/Garden Railways/Model Railroader
Well said Mike!
And you brought up one good point. Don't forget the China angle. We know the problem's Lionel's had with the Chinese meeting target dates for shipping product, we can assume MTH has had the same problem. If the Chinese want to be difficult there's not much an American importer, (And remember Lionel, MTH, and others are importers, not manufacturers) can do about it.
And can only get worse with the Chinese government apparantly working overtime to turn the country into a pariah nation.
The hobby's in for some interesting times, that's for certain.
Most of us look at this whole situation from the consumer persepective and wonder why nobody has stepped up to buy the company? One has to look from the business side of the equation. If MTH was the cash cow it once was, then its survival would be assured IMHO. But the lack of anybody stepping up the moment the chance was given says many things about the current state of the hobby from a business perspective and profits. The hobby market for O gauge is shrinking, the older modelers with deep wallets for the high end stuff are aging out in one form or another sadly. The younger generation are not going to be buying as many big items and many are just getting started with the lower end sets from Lionel or MTH. I am sure some of the tooling will survive with someone that deals with the factories in China where that tooling will remain. Once Lionel stepped up its game, it was matching MTH on many levels(QC issues not withstanding, whole nother argument). Lionel would have no interested in DCS, they have Legacy. I can see Bachmann/Kader taking some of the tooling and IP if it gets broken up piece meal. Since MTH is going to keep going thru next spring and thru the holiday season, there is time for someone to sit down at the table and take over the company. Only time will answer that question. If it does go away, yes prices will skyrocket for awhie, just as it did with LGB going belly up at one point. Then prices stablized and dropped like a rock. Just as Postwar Lionel was worth way more a few years ago and now its hard to give some of it away. Enjoy what you have and keep in mind, these are just toys folks, might be expensive toys but still toys when it comes down to it. Enjoy them, be thankful for all the great ones Mike Wolf enabled to be made, and for those that are Lionel fans, him getting big L off its duff and stepping up its game as well. Mikie
Silly NT's, I have Asperger's Syndrome
I don't trust him. Don't wish him ill, just don't trust him.
My mind was leaned towards non-trust with lawsuits, really kicked it over on the back-EMF threatened lawsuits. Involved with several manufacturers who fought that.
When it's developed, given as open-source, and decades later Mikey decides to patent it (the way it was explained to me)....did you know it costs $10,000 non-refundable to challenge a patent?
Like I said, don't trust him, and this whole story....something missing. It will come out, we'll look back on it and realize what.
The latest word:
June 9, 2020 - With the scheduled closing of M.T.H. Electric Trains next year, support for the DCS Digital Command System and the Proto-Sound 3.0 onboard locomotive systems will continue through a new independent company headed up by current M.T.H. staff once direct M.T.H. support for the systems concludes on June 1, 2021.The new tech company will continue to manufacture and provide support including any necessary software updates to the DCS hardware or DCS WiFi App. In fact, new and exciting product ideas are currently under development. The DCS System controls any Proto-Sound 2.0 and later equipped locomotives and first debuted 18 years ago. It has been an integral part of the M.T.H. product line family since its inception and its continuation beyond the closing of M.T.H. is an important part of the transition envisioned by retiring M.T.H. president Mike Wolf. As the retirement transition process moves forward, more details about the new company's creation and ongoing development of M.T.H.'s technology packages will be announced. Stay tuned.
Remember the Veterans. Past, present and future.
www.sd3r.org
Proud New Member Of The NRA
so The Todd McFarlane of Toy Trains is going the way of many a railroad modeled today Found this out while looking at something else and as to Lionel Buying Them out why not Then no m ore Viet Nam least for a awhile can keep the Korean factoryes going
I am surprised teh Viet Nam thing took so long was at a clothing shop in 2005 or so stuff was made there
Cause it is cheaper
I just looked in on the MR Forum. There's a lot more buzz concerning this over there than there is here, which surprises me a bit.
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