Need hlep finding information on a train

[Anonymous]

My grandfather gave my mother a model train set that we believe was given to him in 1904. We can't find any number/manufacturer/model information except the following:

"electric locomotive 221"

Does anyone have any idea what this might be? Who made it? Where we'd be able to get more information on it?

Thanks in advance

[lionelsoni]

Can you tell us a little about it? How many wheels on the locomotive? What is the gauge, the distance between the inside edges of the outside rails? Is the model itself electric, that is, does it have an electric motor, or is it a non-electric model of an electric locomotive? How many cars of what kinds? What does the track, if any, look like?

[railfanespee4449]

From my research I found a lot of references to Europe. Is it European?

[Anonymous]

It's really bothering me that the topic says "hlep". Really bothering me.

Anyhoo, I called my folks at home to try to get more information on the train. I doubt that it's European, my grandfather was raised in New Jersey, and I'm not sure what kind of access his friends and family would have had to European trains.

Hopefully I can get the dimensional information, and maybe a description or digital photograph of the engine.

[lionelsoni]

Before WW1, the US imported large amounts of toys from Europe, and Germany in particular. I would say Europe was the most likely place of origin for a train bought in New Jersey in 1904. Trains meant for export to the US would probably have been lettered in English.

[Dave Farquhar]

If it's from 1904, it's nearly as likely to be European as American. At the turn of the century, we imported a lot of toys, especially from Germany. Possible American candidates would be Carlisle & Finch, Voltamp, and some upstart company called Lionel. Possible German candidates would be Bing and Marklin, but I don't know when Bing and Marklin started making electrics.

A photograph would definitely help in identifying it.

[Anonymous]

Here's the information on the train.

Inside to inside of track = 2”.
It has a forward/reverse lever, axle-to-axle = 2 ¾”;
wheel diameter is 2 ¾”.
We have 8 curved and 8 straight pieces of track.
The straight pieces are 12 ¼” long with 3 ties per section.
Ties are ½ x ½ x 3 ½”.

Here's a picture or two:
1)
2)

[wrmcclellan]

It may be me but I do not see the photos, just Red X's.

[Anonymous]

Nope, I don't think it's you. How do you post images? I thought I had it licked, but clearly I need help.

[lionelsoni]

I can't either. Can any picture-posting experts help us here?

A gauge of 2 inches is Maerklin number 2, which indicates a European origin. If it were 2 1/8 inches, it would be American. This gauge was called "standard" by Lionel, who originated it, and "wide" by others who couldn't use the Lionel term.

[wrmcclellan]

onceler,

Here is the link:

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21724

[Jim Duda]

Onceler -

I'm no expert but right clicking on your broken image icon indicates you're trying to save these directly from your hard drive. We all wish it was that simple! You have to upload them to a URL that is image friendly and then copy them into your post with the correct HTML syntax.

Spankybird will be glad to tutor you...

[wrmcclellan]

I found one of Tom's postings on this subject:

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20382

[Jim Duda]

try: www.villagephotos.com

[Anonymous]

Alright, help is on the way. Spankybird to the rescue. I tried the villagephoto link, but the pictures were too big (120K each) and the limit for freebie users is 120K. I sent the pics to Spankybird, who kindly offered to post them.

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

Jim

[Anonymous]

Also, when do I get little stars next to my name?

[wrmcclellan]

Stars depend on whether Santa thinks you have been good this year....

Actually:
1 star at 50 posts
2 stars at 100 posts
3 stars at 500 posts
4 stars at 1000 posts

[Anonymous]

I have so far to go. . .

. . . and after this I may well have exhausted my supply of train related banter.

[spankybird]

Here are your pics





as always, click on the pics to enlarge them.

tom

[Anonymous]

The train that you have was manufacturered by Howard. The full name of the company was the Howard Miniature Electric Lamp Co. The company was based in New York and part of their product line included electric trains. Howard was the first company to produce electric trains with illuminated headlights and brass drive wheels. It had a fairly extensive line of trains, but the company could not compete with the larger manufacturers and quit making trains by 1910.

Words like incredible, fantastic, amazing, awesome and unbelievable would best describe your train! Any trains that old are hard to find, but ones by Howard are much rarer-not to mention finding one in the outstanding condition that yours is! I can say without any doubt that the train you have is worth thousands of dollars!

Since trains like yours seldom turn up, it would be very hard to put an exact value on it, but I can guarentee if collectors of these types of trains found out that you had it, they'd be pounding down your door.

[prewardude]

Guys, this is one of the most interesting threads that I have seen on ANY online forum. Good stuff! [:)]

[lionelsoni]

My comment about gauge needs correction. It seems that Howard made trains from 1904 to 1907, whereas Lionel didn't create standard gauge (2 1/8") until 1906. So Howard used 2" well before there was any incentive to be compatible with the Lionel gauge.

[wrmcclellan]

I agree with Prewardude. This is a very interesting find and I wi***o express my appreciation to onceler for sharing it with us and to Sask and the others for the details.

Onceler - you get a star in my book. Thanks for joining the forum and allowing us to enjoy your find.

Best regards,
Roy

[1688torpedo]

Hello Sask-Tinplater! Your knowledge of old Toy Trains is incredible.The other Companies in business at the same time as Howard were: Voltamp(Baltimore,Md) Carlisle& Finch(Cincinnati,Oh) Boucher(New York,N.Y.) They also made trains very similar to what Howard made in the early 1900's.Interestingly, Carlisle & Finch is still in business today.although they are involved in other products and services than Toy Trains.They would have the distinction of being Lionel's oldest competitor had they continued manufacturing Toy Trains today.Maybe someday Neil will hire you at Classic Toy Trains.With your knowledge of trains it could happen! Take Care! Keith.

[cheapclassics]

One word. Wow!!!!! Neil or Bob or Roger at CTT, if any body is monitoring this thread, would you please consider doing an article on this set. It has been in one family for 100 years. That is amazing. Thank you everybody for sharing this wonderful set and contributing to solving the mystery.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[Anonymous]

Wow! That's some very helpful information. I have three or four more pictures I can share if you're interested. Of course, it'd require spankybird's help, if he's willing.

I'll see if we can dig up anything more on the history (like when he actually received the train), I'm intrigued by the idea that Howard made it and was only in business from 1904 - 1907, because we've always thought that he got it in 1904, which would have been the first year they manufactured them. Anyway, my folks had previously sent the pictures to a hobby store owner here in PA who offered to show them to collectors and give them some feedback on what they might be, but this forum has been phenomenal both with the quantity of information and also the timeliness of it.

Thanks
Jim

[macdannyk1]

Wow, nice pictures. That's only the second Howard engine I've "seen"; the only other one was on Great Train Layouts Volume 1, Ward Kimball. Neat.

[spankybird]

Some more Pics






tom

[Anonymous]

My mom told me she thinks my grandfather got it on his first birthday, which would have been December of 1905. She actually thinks she has a photograph of the train under the Christmas tree from when he was a baby (and it was new). If we can dig it up, I'll scan it too. Spankybird graciously agreed to post the other three pics of the train, and I've sent those over.

This group's enthusiasm for the topic has been mindblowing. The old "one man's trash is another man's treasure" leaps to mind. My mother always believed the train was worth something, and since my mom and dad started purchasing some new model trains/tracks, and moved to Pennsylvania they got interested in the topic.

Thanks again for the help.
Jim

[Anonymous]

I'm very glad that I could be of help with this! Looking at these pictures that you've shown us, onceler, that is one very sharp looking train set that you have! It's really fantastic to see that it is in a family that has treasured it as the heirloom that is is for a whole century and realizes how special it is! I'd love to see that photo of your grandfather with it in 1905! You should set it up around your Christmas tree this year. It would really be something to have the same train under your tree today that your family did 99 years ago.