I agree with Synthetic. I have used Mobil 1 Synthetic since the mid 70s in everything I drive. Used it back then on slot cars I raced, it worked great. Mobil 1 Synthetic is great stuff and when my Labelle bottle is empty it will be filled with Mobil 1 5W-30W Synthetic. I also use Mobil 1 Synthetic grease on gears. It is red and will never harden. A single $7.00 tube would grease all of my engines for the next 100 years. I fill a carmex container with it and aply it with a small screwdriver to the gears. The rest is used on the car, truck and tractors. Works fine that way. I only have about twenty some engines and only run three at a time a few hours a week. Do the math.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
I bought a new little bottle of Labelle 107 a few weeks ago. First one in many years. These heated discussions about what kind of oil and grease to use go on frequently on the various toy train web sites. So I thought it was interesting what the Labelle oil says across the top of the package in large letters. It says "Synthetic Light Motor Oil Medium Weight". As far as the white grease Lionel uses at the factory, since these are toy trains, my guess is the grease they use is safe for children to eat. It is probably a food grade lubricant. Since my grand children are not licking the grease off my trains, I am free to use the best grease available for the application without regards to its toxicity. In the past I have used semi fluid power tool grease from Black and Decker. In the future I will be using the Lucas Red n tacky #2. It is very similar to the Chevron Ultra Duty grease, which I have had very good results with in industrial and railroad applications in the past. I do not like the white grease. I had some one try it on some valves and it was hard as a rock in a year. All the valves reconditioned with the white grease had to be rebuilt again.
RR_Mel...I want to thank you for posting the info about using 5w-30 motor oil . . . .
If you take it one step further and use synthetic oil, it will cut down your maintenance intervals and wear considerably.
Rob
servoguy I recommend using 5W-20 motor oil for everything. It never dries out or gets gummy. I do not recommend Lionel Lube, LaBelle, most greases, white lithium grease, 3 in one oil, WD-40. The only lube I can find vapor pressre data on is motor oil. If you don't lubricate everything, especially the motor bearings, you are likely going to ruin the motors. I have put bushings in two motors in the past, one in a 2-4-2 switcher and one in a 44 ton diesel. Both of these were run for some time without lube. If the slots in the commutator are clean, you can oil the commutator with motor oil. I have been doing this for about 8 years with no problems. The oil reduces the motor friction. People (including Lionel) will tell you that you should not get oil on the commutator and brushes. They are just plain wrong, and most likely have never tried it. I am an electrical engineer and have 52 years of engineering experience. I have blown away many myths in engineering because the myths were just plain wrong. I think washers will work better than set screws to adjust the end play in the armatures. Lubricate them with motor oil, and they will last forever and never need adjustment.
I recommend using 5W-20 motor oil for everything. It never dries out or gets gummy. I do not recommend Lionel Lube, LaBelle, most greases, white lithium grease, 3 in one oil, WD-40. The only lube I can find vapor pressre data on is motor oil.
If you don't lubricate everything, especially the motor bearings, you are likely going to ruin the motors. I have put bushings in two motors in the past, one in a 2-4-2 switcher and one in a 44 ton diesel. Both of these were run for some time without lube.
If the slots in the commutator are clean, you can oil the commutator with motor oil. I have been doing this for about 8 years with no problems. The oil reduces the motor friction. People (including Lionel) will tell you that you should not get oil on the commutator and brushes. They are just plain wrong, and most likely have never tried it. I am an electrical engineer and have 52 years of engineering experience. I have blown away many myths in engineering because the myths were just plain wrong.
I think washers will work better than set screws to adjust the end play in the armatures. Lubricate them with motor oil, and they will last forever and never need adjustment.
There's nothing wrong with motor oil, and it is my preference, as I really cannot afford the Labelle children's college tuition in addition to that of my own kid's. I do use Mobil One(now ~ $5.09/qt. at WalMart - a substantial amount of product that will last several years) for oil applications, but there's no way I'm relying on it for applications where grease is called for.
For grease, I have not found a better product than Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2. It is super slippery and does not sling off - only a small amount is needed and it clings and distributes throughout the gear train it's applied to.
For this application on the 8030-100 type II motor, and I have many of these, I use a tiny bit of the Lucas in the brushplate end of the armature and the lower bearing plate, and then a light application to the worm(transfers to the worm wheel) and the external drive/idler/wheel gears. Once done in this fashion, I have not had to service these diesels again, some going on 20 years now.
Thank-you sir James 1 thats what I have been trying to tell him and basically even stated first time when I said motor oil may work fine.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
There is lots of data, thousand's of toy trains in all sizes have been running with Labelle type products for many many years.
Servoguy your use of motor oil is not the problem it's your insisting every time this subject comes up that yours is the only way...Sorry but it's just not so.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SQkU18WmuWw
I turst this guy as much as anyone else.
servoguy Here is what you said: all I ever said was the lube today isn't what it was back in the 60's it doesn't get hard like it use to. Now prove it. I want to see test data, not opinions.
Here is what you said:
all I ever said was the lube today isn't what it was back in the 60's it doesn't get hard like it use to.
Now prove it. I want to see test data, not opinions.
I thought I had made that clear. There is nothing in the brushplate..Lubricant is needed there.
As Sir James wrote earlier, lubricant is needed regardless of the presence of a set screw. I think it is clear that those early motors did not have a set screw or thrust washers. Lionel must have realized that there was an issue, otherwise they would not have added the set screw. IMHO, the postwar washers, pictured in the Postwar service manual pages I linked above, could be added to motors that do not have the set screw.
I want to see test data, not opinions.
Where is your test data on using motor oil on everything/everywhere?
I never said Oil didn't work all I ever said was the lube today isn't what it was back in the 60's it doesn't get hard like it use to. You kept coming across that grease got hard thats why I have came back so hard If you read my last statement I even said Oil may work fine all I was saying was theres a lot out there and it all has it's good and bad I'm not big on Oil as it can run a lot easier than lube would even sparently
No I'm not blowing smoke I state facts from my personal use I don't care about all those fact sheets you talk about I've seen them fudge to make things look good to many times I go on persoanl experinces If I get good results I keep using it and again the harden grease in a 2343 probably from the 50's or 60's and I have repeatedly stated the grease today isn't like the grease from then I still will keep using what I do and you will keep using what you do and we will go at this every time you decide to come in down grading lube as it gets hard which it doesn't any more for the 5000 time the only lube that got hard was from 60's and before and most of that is gone I would think althou if you get a attic/basement find first thing I would do is take it apart to be safe, even if its from the 90's as you never know what someone else has put in a engine.
To me the first thing you should do when you get a used engine is take it apart and clean and relube/oil it properly. No matter what your preference is pure oil or a mixture of oil and lube I even know some that use just lube and do fine.
The bottom line is each preference and what works for them.
What is Labelle's proven track record? Where is the data?
Motor oil has a published vapor pressure of 10^-2 torr at 100 deg C. Where is the vapor pressure for Labelle products? I can't find it. If you can find it, please publish it. Without vapor pressure data, you have no idea how long the lube will last before it dries out.
From the data I can find, motor oil has a vapor pressure of 10^-5 torr at room temperature. That is a very low vapor pressure. And everyone knows from experience that motor oil doesn't evaporate when they put it into the motor in their car. I have cleaned hardened grease out of a 2343. The gearboxes were full of hardened grease. White lithium grease? Probably.
I don't care what any manufacturer recommends. Years ago, Lionel recommended Lionel Lube. Lionel Lube is horrible. I have many post war cars with dried Lionel Lube on the wheels, and it is very difficult to remove.
In 1965 I lubed a 2025 loco with motor oil, Valvolene 20W40. I ran it for a while and then put it in a box in the closet. I took it out of the box less than 10 years ago, and the oil was OK. It ran just fine without being lubricated. Anybody else got data like this? Unless you can find published data about the vapor pressure of the oil in the product you are using, you are just blowing smoke to state that it works well and doesn't evaporate and get gummy or hard. Opinions are meaningless.
Stick with the Labelle products they have a proven track record.
sir james IYep
I just today ordered a number of LaBelle products today. OH my!!
I recall someone who said they have used 5-W-30 oil for 60 years. I started doing wrench work in 1967 and everything was still straight weight then. I think the first one I recall was 10-30W and 5-30W was much later?
I started using Mobil 1 in 1979 in my new LUV truck. People thought I was nuts. Comes in every new Vet today. Things do get better.
JTrains I thought I had made that clear. There is nothing in the brushplate..Lubricant is needed there. sir james I Thats a postwar motor. The MPC motor does not have the washer. The armature shaft can rub against the brush plate so some lube is needed in all of these motors. Not only does my no-set-screw GP-9 not have washers, it looks like there is nothing (like a small metal cup) inside the well in the brush plate for the very top of the armature shaft to ride against. But I cannot really see into it - does anyone know if there something in there or is the top of the armature shaft just riding against the plastic of the brush plate?
sir james I Thats a postwar motor. The MPC motor does not have the washer. The armature shaft can rub against the brush plate so some lube is needed in all of these motors.
Thats a postwar motor. The MPC motor does not have the washer. The armature shaft can rub against the brush plate so some lube is needed in all of these motors.
Not only does my no-set-screw GP-9 not have washers, it looks like there is nothing (like a small metal cup) inside the well in the brush plate for the very top of the armature shaft to ride against. But I cannot really see into it - does anyone know if there something in there or is the top of the armature shaft just riding against the plastic of the brush plate?
ADCX Rob rtraincollector But we have one in here that will come in and tell you how not to use grease as it will harden ( it won't today's doesn't ) that all you should use is W-30 motor oil. In fact there isn't a thing wrong with today's grease and is the recommend item from the manufacture And there it is!
rtraincollector But we have one in here that will come in and tell you how not to use grease as it will harden ( it won't today's doesn't ) that all you should use is W-30 motor oil. In fact there isn't a thing wrong with today's grease and is the recommend item from the manufacture
And there it is!
IT consultant by day, 3rd generation Lionel guy (raising a 3YO 4th generation Lionel Lil' Man) by night in the suburbs of the greatest city in the world - Chicago. Home of the ever-changing Illinois Concretus Ry.
rtraincollectorBut we have one in here that will come in and tell you how not to use grease as it will harden ( it won't today's doesn't ) that all you should use is W-30 motor oil. In fact there isn't a thing wrong with today's grease and is the recommend item from the manufacture
Sir James I is correct. I check my early Lionel service station papers, and the washers are not shown, nor are they listed as a part. The center of the MPC armature's commutator plate sticks up quite a bit above the copper segments. Maybe they figured that the washers were unnecessary.
Still, why couldn't the washers be added if there is enough clearance?Lionel(MPC) didn't get everything quite right. And they did add the set screw.
Some MPC motors have a brushplate that is closed off at the top.
Some of the motor set screws I've encountered were pointy, and actually wore a matching depression into the top end of the armature shaft. I think they switched to a set screw with a cup shaped end somewhere along the line.
I'd have to check one, to be certain. Most Lionel motors of similar construction have thrust washers on the top shaft.
The washers are shown in this postwar diagram: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/ho/d200b.pdf
As a side note: since the GP-9 doesn't have a bearing screw, what (if anything) is the top of the armature shaft pushing against? It's tough to see up into the well but it looks like there isn't anything other than the plastic bottom of the brush plate.
rtraincollector You know I hate questions like this ( sorry nothing against you )
You know I hate questions like this ( sorry nothing against you )
Hehe, no worries - my impetus for the questions was the apparent fact that these bearings were designed to be non-lubricated (or "lubrication optional").
Thank you for this response. Reading the post I was getting worried I was abusing my collection. I had to pack mine away for about 5 years and within the past year started pulling the units out of storage. I had carefully lubed and oiled by manufactures spec before packing away. However, when unpacking, I only did minor lube and oil knowing that I had what I had done before packing. I was beginning to worry I should tear it back down and look for harden grease.
Good advice from CWB about not getting any lubes on the brushes or commutator. However a small amout on the top half of the armature is very importamt on all these motors. As is the screw adjustment on later motors. As for oil, it was not recommended then. It is used in todays offerings though but the gears are not plastic.
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