So, I've pulled apart my two diesels – a circa 1970 Illinois Central GP-9 #8030 and a circa 1980 Monon U36B #8155. According to Lionel diagrams 1-19 / 1-21 (not sure if I have an "early" or "current" unit – though I don’t think it matters in this case...) and 1-47 respectively, both have an 8030-100 motor truck. According to diagram 15-32, this truck should have an 8030-118 thrust bearing screw through the brush plate pressing down on the armature. Only the U36B does; the GP-9 does not. Somewhat curious, but not the thrust (ha!) of my question, which is...
...should I be lubricating the top and/or bottom armature bearings for these motors in some way? Neither looks like they have had any oil applied (at least at the top – there might be a trace of grease on the bottom bearings, perhaps only from the gears). The instructions I have for the U36B (which also seems to be applicable for GP-9s - although perhaps for a version current at the time) doesn't mention having to - but then again it doesn’t mention lubricating the gear box either (which definitely needed a little something after 30 years). Thoughts and experiences?
IT consultant by day, 3rd generation Lionel guy (raising a 3YO 4th generation Lionel Lil' Man) by night in the suburbs of the greatest city in the world - Chicago. Home of the ever-changing Illinois Concretus Ry.
Take the armatures out and lube everything. use plastic compatable white grease from a hobby shop. While the armature is out oil the axle from the inside. Lube the gears well and smear a small amount on the top half of the armature shaft. Most of those motors have a set screw on top. Turn it down till the armature won't turn then back it off till it just runs free.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Early MPC diesel motors did not have the set screw. I don't recall exactly when they were added. The 8030 was first made in 1970, so it was probably made the way you found it.
Sir James I covered how to lubricate your motor trucks. There are several popular lubrication products.Nothing wrong with the product he suggested.I like Labelle 106 grease.
You don't want to get any lubricant on the brushes or commutator.
You know I hate questions like this ( sorry nothing against you ) But we have one in here that will come in and tell you how not to use grease as it will harden ( it won't today's doesn't ) that all you should use is W-30 motor oil. In fact there isn't a thing wrong with today's grease and is the recommend item from the manufacture The info you got above is great. Back prior to 1970's I will say maybe even prior to mid 60's not sure how far back but Lionel switched what they used for grease in there engines as the old stuff would harden over time. But I will say anything from 1970 forward you will not find has the type of grease that will harden in it. I my self about year and a half ago got a engine nib from 1970 and it ran right out of the box ( now I don't recommend doing that but did it just to see very carefully) then took it apart cleaned and all and actually all was fine in there. So don't be afraid to use grease or a drop of oil if you prefer as some suggest I don't see anything wrong going that route either although the manufacture does recommend the white grease.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
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Good advice from CWB about not getting any lubes on the brushes or commutator. However a small amout on the top half of the armature is very importamt on all these motors. As is the screw adjustment on later motors. As for oil, it was not recommended then. It is used in todays offerings though but the gears are not plastic.
Thank you for this response. Reading the post I was getting worried I was abusing my collection. I had to pack mine away for about 5 years and within the past year started pulling the units out of storage. I had carefully lubed and oiled by manufactures spec before packing away. However, when unpacking, I only did minor lube and oil knowing that I had what I had done before packing. I was beginning to worry I should tear it back down and look for harden grease.
rtraincollector You know I hate questions like this ( sorry nothing against you )
You know I hate questions like this ( sorry nothing against you )
Hehe, no worries - my impetus for the questions was the apparent fact that these bearings were designed to be non-lubricated (or "lubrication optional").
As a side note: since the GP-9 doesn't have a bearing screw, what (if anything) is the top of the armature shaft pushing against? It's tough to see up into the well but it looks like there isn't anything other than the plastic bottom of the brush plate.
I'd have to check one, to be certain. Most Lionel motors of similar construction have thrust washers on the top shaft.
The washers are shown in this postwar diagram: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/ho/d200b.pdf
Thats a postwar motor. The MPC motor does not have the washer. The armature shaft can rub against the brush plate so some lube is needed in all of these motors.
Sir James I is correct. I check my early Lionel service station papers, and the washers are not shown, nor are they listed as a part. The center of the MPC armature's commutator plate sticks up quite a bit above the copper segments. Maybe they figured that the washers were unnecessary.
Still, why couldn't the washers be added if there is enough clearance?Lionel(MPC) didn't get everything quite right. And they did add the set screw.
Some MPC motors have a brushplate that is closed off at the top.
Some of the motor set screws I've encountered were pointy, and actually wore a matching depression into the top end of the armature shaft. I think they switched to a set screw with a cup shaped end somewhere along the line.
I recommend using 5W-20 motor oil for everything. It never dries out or gets gummy. I do not recommend Lionel Lube, LaBelle, most greases, white lithium grease, 3 in one oil, WD-40. The only lube I can find vapor pressre data on is motor oil.
If you don't lubricate everything, especially the motor bearings, you are likely going to ruin the motors. I have put bushings in two motors in the past, one in a 2-4-2 switcher and one in a 44 ton diesel. Both of these were run for some time without lube.
If the slots in the commutator are clean, you can oil the commutator with motor oil. I have been doing this for about 8 years with no problems. The oil reduces the motor friction. People (including Lionel) will tell you that you should not get oil on the commutator and brushes. They are just plain wrong, and most likely have never tried it. I am an electrical engineer and have 52 years of engineering experience. I have blown away many myths in engineering because the myths were just plain wrong.
I think washers will work better than set screws to adjust the end play in the armatures. Lubricate them with motor oil, and they will last forever and never need adjustment.
rtraincollectorBut we have one in here that will come in and tell you how not to use grease as it will harden ( it won't today's doesn't ) that all you should use is W-30 motor oil. In fact there isn't a thing wrong with today's grease and is the recommend item from the manufacture
And there it is!
Rob
sir james I Thats a postwar motor. The MPC motor does not have the washer. The armature shaft can rub against the brush plate so some lube is needed in all of these motors.
Not only does my no-set-screw GP-9 not have washers, it looks like there is nothing (like a small metal cup) inside the well in the brush plate for the very top of the armature shaft to ride against. But I cannot really see into it - does anyone know if there something in there or is the top of the armature shaft just riding against the plastic of the brush plate?
ADCX Rob rtraincollector But we have one in here that will come in and tell you how not to use grease as it will harden ( it won't today's doesn't ) that all you should use is W-30 motor oil. In fact there isn't a thing wrong with today's grease and is the recommend item from the manufacture And there it is!
rtraincollector But we have one in here that will come in and tell you how not to use grease as it will harden ( it won't today's doesn't ) that all you should use is W-30 motor oil. In fact there isn't a thing wrong with today's grease and is the recommend item from the manufacture
JTrains I thought I had made that clear. There is nothing in the brushplate..Lubricant is needed there. sir james I Thats a postwar motor. The MPC motor does not have the washer. The armature shaft can rub against the brush plate so some lube is needed in all of these motors. Not only does my no-set-screw GP-9 not have washers, it looks like there is nothing (like a small metal cup) inside the well in the brush plate for the very top of the armature shaft to ride against. But I cannot really see into it - does anyone know if there something in there or is the top of the armature shaft just riding against the plastic of the brush plate?
I thought I had made that clear. There is nothing in the brushplate..Lubricant is needed there.
sir james IYep
I just today ordered a number of LaBelle products today. OH my!!
I recall someone who said they have used 5-W-30 oil for 60 years. I started doing wrench work in 1967 and everything was still straight weight then. I think the first one I recall was 10-30W and 5-30W was much later?
I started using Mobil 1 in 1979 in my new LUV truck. People thought I was nuts. Comes in every new Vet today. Things do get better.
Joined 1-21-2011 TCA 13-68614
Kev, From The North Bluff Above Marseilles IL.
Stick with the Labelle products they have a proven track record.
What is Labelle's proven track record? Where is the data?
Motor oil has a published vapor pressure of 10^-2 torr at 100 deg C. Where is the vapor pressure for Labelle products? I can't find it. If you can find it, please publish it. Without vapor pressure data, you have no idea how long the lube will last before it dries out.
From the data I can find, motor oil has a vapor pressure of 10^-5 torr at room temperature. That is a very low vapor pressure. And everyone knows from experience that motor oil doesn't evaporate when they put it into the motor in their car. I have cleaned hardened grease out of a 2343. The gearboxes were full of hardened grease. White lithium grease? Probably.
I don't care what any manufacturer recommends. Years ago, Lionel recommended Lionel Lube. Lionel Lube is horrible. I have many post war cars with dried Lionel Lube on the wheels, and it is very difficult to remove.
In 1965 I lubed a 2025 loco with motor oil, Valvolene 20W40. I ran it for a while and then put it in a box in the closet. I took it out of the box less than 10 years ago, and the oil was OK. It ran just fine without being lubricated. Anybody else got data like this? Unless you can find published data about the vapor pressure of the oil in the product you are using, you are just blowing smoke to state that it works well and doesn't evaporate and get gummy or hard. Opinions are meaningless.
I never said Oil didn't work all I ever said was the lube today isn't what it was back in the 60's it doesn't get hard like it use to. You kept coming across that grease got hard thats why I have came back so hard If you read my last statement I even said Oil may work fine all I was saying was theres a lot out there and it all has it's good and bad I'm not big on Oil as it can run a lot easier than lube would even sparently
No I'm not blowing smoke I state facts from my personal use I don't care about all those fact sheets you talk about I've seen them fudge to make things look good to many times I go on persoanl experinces If I get good results I keep using it and again the harden grease in a 2343 probably from the 50's or 60's and I have repeatedly stated the grease today isn't like the grease from then I still will keep using what I do and you will keep using what you do and we will go at this every time you decide to come in down grading lube as it gets hard which it doesn't any more for the 5000 time the only lube that got hard was from 60's and before and most of that is gone I would think althou if you get a attic/basement find first thing I would do is take it apart to be safe, even if its from the 90's as you never know what someone else has put in a engine.
To me the first thing you should do when you get a used engine is take it apart and clean and relube/oil it properly. No matter what your preference is pure oil or a mixture of oil and lube I even know some that use just lube and do fine.
The bottom line is each preference and what works for them.
Here is what you said:
all I ever said was the lube today isn't what it was back in the 60's it doesn't get hard like it use to.
Now prove it. I want to see test data, not opinions.
I want to see test data, not opinions.
Where is your test data on using motor oil on everything/everywhere?
As Sir James wrote earlier, lubricant is needed regardless of the presence of a set screw. I think it is clear that those early motors did not have a set screw or thrust washers. Lionel must have realized that there was an issue, otherwise they would not have added the set screw. IMHO, the postwar washers, pictured in the Postwar service manual pages I linked above, could be added to motors that do not have the set screw.
servoguy Here is what you said: all I ever said was the lube today isn't what it was back in the 60's it doesn't get hard like it use to. Now prove it. I want to see test data, not opinions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=SQkU18WmuWw
I turst this guy as much as anyone else.
There is lots of data, thousand's of toy trains in all sizes have been running with Labelle type products for many many years.
Servoguy your use of motor oil is not the problem it's your insisting every time this subject comes up that yours is the only way...Sorry but it's just not so.
Thank-you sir James 1 thats what I have been trying to tell him and basically even stated first time when I said motor oil may work fine.
There's nothing wrong with motor oil, and it is my preference, as I really cannot afford the Labelle children's college tuition in addition to that of my own kid's. I do use Mobil One(now ~ $5.09/qt. at WalMart - a substantial amount of product that will last several years) for oil applications, but there's no way I'm relying on it for applications where grease is called for.
For grease, I have not found a better product than Lucas Red 'N' Tacky #2. It is super slippery and does not sling off - only a small amount is needed and it clings and distributes throughout the gear train it's applied to.
For this application on the 8030-100 type II motor, and I have many of these, I use a tiny bit of the Lucas in the brushplate end of the armature and the lower bearing plate, and then a light application to the worm(transfers to the worm wheel) and the external drive/idler/wheel gears. Once done in this fashion, I have not had to service these diesels again, some going on 20 years now.
servoguy I recommend using 5W-20 motor oil for everything. It never dries out or gets gummy. I do not recommend Lionel Lube, LaBelle, most greases, white lithium grease, 3 in one oil, WD-40. The only lube I can find vapor pressre data on is motor oil. If you don't lubricate everything, especially the motor bearings, you are likely going to ruin the motors. I have put bushings in two motors in the past, one in a 2-4-2 switcher and one in a 44 ton diesel. Both of these were run for some time without lube. If the slots in the commutator are clean, you can oil the commutator with motor oil. I have been doing this for about 8 years with no problems. The oil reduces the motor friction. People (including Lionel) will tell you that you should not get oil on the commutator and brushes. They are just plain wrong, and most likely have never tried it. I am an electrical engineer and have 52 years of engineering experience. I have blown away many myths in engineering because the myths were just plain wrong. I think washers will work better than set screws to adjust the end play in the armatures. Lubricate them with motor oil, and they will last forever and never need adjustment.
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