***BREAKING NEWS*** MTH MAKES HO LINE***

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by 3railguy

QUOTE: As for 3railguy's comment about compatability: The MTH HO line, as announced, would be fully compatible with all other HO equipment.

Will all the features be accesible with DCC?

The simple answer is NO. Andy Edleman rattled off a long list of features that could only be accessed with DCS over on the MR forum.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21838

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

"Allan, I think you are underestimating the diverse cross section of people on this board. In terms of polling demographics I would bet that this forum represents the hobby world quite well."
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I will be delighted to take that bet! [:)]

Allan,

I spent alot of time yesterday coming up with a response using numbers. I've decided to scratch that. Here is one though. 163,780. This was the number of registered members as of approx one pm yesterday. Also at this time there were 20 people who had just signed up. Yes, not all of these people are around anymore. Just remember that lack of posts does not mean lack of presence.

Diverse-Made up of distinct characteristics, qualities, or elements.

From reading and talking to other forum members I know it is true.

Age--How many polls have been taken on here?? We have pre-teen to well into their seventies.

Sex-Well we got both of them covered here.[;)]

Location--Not only is the United States well represented but we have international exposure as well.

Education--There are students all the way up to ??. I would say PhD but I don't know for sure of a member. But I am willing to bet that we have some of those, along with some that have never finished high school.

Ethnicity--This one is a touchy subject. I am not sure how many are present on this board. Although to be a fair representation of the hobby I am not sure how many we need. The main cast of characters in most of the videos I have seen appears to be the "white male between 40 and 60"[;)].

Availability and Ease of Use--Unlike years ago when it was expensive and tougher to navigate--the web is a very user friendly place today. More houses than ever have at least one computer. You can access it at the library or the corner cafe. As far as easy to use, 5 year olds can get around easily. As can the older generations who never touched a computer until after they could qualify for their .25 coffee[;)].

Occupations--There are pizza boys to doctors. Heck we even have a guy at the pentagon(but he is only trying to make us be all we can be[;)]).

Also on this very subject we have all the responses covered. YES, NO , I COULD CARE LESS.

When there are poll takers at the mall that is not totally random, everyone inside chose a reason to come in while everyone outside chose a reason not to. Everyone that came inside has something in common.

[3railguy]

QUOTE: As for 3railguy's comment about compatability: The MTH HO line, as announced, would be fully compatible with all other HO equipment.

Will all the features be accesible with DCC?

[nblum]

Word of mouth is quite effective in most hobbies in spreading news. Do something good and 10 people might hear about it. Do something naughty and 1,000 people hear about it :).

[Anonymous]

I believe that, while MTH competes in nearly all price points in the O gauge 3-rail market, its HO offerings will be restricted to the high end of the price scale. The customer community who buys these high end trains is highly sophisticated and knows what's going on. Furthermore the WIDESPREAD perception that there is something wrong with our civil court system bodes ill for anyone who EVEN APPEARS to have gamed the system to gain a legally correct but morally incorrect advantage. All of Allan Miller's wishful thinking will not change these facts. MTH has to convince the customer base that it has NO INTENTION of interfering with ANY of the DCC standards as they exist today or their HO venture stands a good chance of unprofitability. They are not dealing with a bunch of Joe Sixpacks here.

[Frank in Steam]

Allan, I agree, this or other forums are hardly a diverse cross section of the hobby. It is not a statistically valid sample because it is not randomly selected. This forum does represent the more vocal and demonstratively involved in the traditional 3 rail side of the hobby, with a smattering of multiple scale interests and rivet counters, and a dash of us folks that seem to like everything. But a diverse cross section not by a scientific or my belabored thought process definition, in other words - no way!

By the way, I work with an HO modeler who sold MTH and Lionel in a hobby shop, and is thus very familiar with the O and HO scales. He showed interest saying that it took Mike long enough to find the largest segment of the hobby, criticized the price level, and moaned "another Pensy K4, what are they thinking?" One of his circle the next day e mailed him the press release and was excited because there is another player to make stuff. The rest of his group could not care less until they see the product. The above is probably a better cross section of the HO segment, but a diverse cross section - hardly.

[Anonymous]

"Allan, I think you are underestimating the diverse cross section of people on this board. In terms of polling demographics I would bet that this forum represents the hobby world quite well."
---------------------------------
I will be delighted to take that bet! [:)]

[Anonymous]

Most of the people I associate with do not visit the forums but they are pretty dedicated to the hobby and are very knowledgeable. There really is no reason for them to get on the forums since there is so much garbage to sift through. Sometimes I mention the stuff that goes on here and they just shake their heads. I'm almost embarassed to mention it to them.

Bill

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

"It seems that the HO community will not tolerate someone coming in and stirring the pot like that. Good!!!"
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Define "HO community." A few whiners who may post on various forums and boards? Or the many thousands of HO enthusiasts who never read any of this on-line stuff and who couldn't care less what brand name is on the box as long as it contains a product they want?

My feeling is if you are defining the HO community (or even the O gauge community) by what you read on line, you are seriously underestimating the size, scope, and diverse interests of these segments of the hobby.

Allan, I think you are underestimating the diverse cross section of people on this board. In terms of polling demographics I would bet that this forum represents the hobby world quite well.

[Anonymous]

"It seems that the HO community will not tolerate someone coming in and stirring the pot like that. Good!!!"
----------------------------

Define "HO community." A few whiners who may post on various forums and boards? Or the many thousands of HO enthusiasts who never read any of this on-line stuff and who couldn't care less what brand name is on the box as long as it contains a product they want?

My feeling is if you are defining the HO community (or even the O gauge community) by what you read on line, you are seriously underestimating the size, scope, and diverse interests of these segments of the hobby.

[Anonymous]

It seems that the HO community will not tolerate someone coming in and stirring the pot like that. Good!!!

[Anonymous]

The HO community can now expect a flurry of industry lawsuits..

[Anonymous]

"MTH has NO experience in the HO market. Most hobby stores do not carry any MTH products. Only train specialty stores are likely to pick up on this product line. MTH has to convince the dealers to buy in.
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Keep in mind that MTH had no experience in the Large Scale segment of the hobby up until a couple of years ago. Now--and in spite of the fact that they went with the less-commonly-used-but-correct 1:32 scale--their products are among the most talked-about items in that segment of the hobby, and are enjoying what appears to be very good sales. There's absolutely no logical reason to believe that MTH can't or won't have a significant presence in the HO market. They have been participating in the NMRA national conventions for a few years now with their Large Scale offerings, and I imagine they will be a center of attention next time around with their HO products.

Nationwide, there are far more hobby shops that sell HO and N scale than O gauge, even if many of those stores are not exclusively trains. Both of those smaller scales require far less shelf and warehouse space, and that allows dealers to stock a greater variety of inventory. MTH will not need to rely exclusively on their existing O gauge dealers--the idea, I asume, is to expand their reach into new and possibly more lucrative markets. Certainly there can be no denying that HO has a far greater slice of the model railroading pie than does O gauge. Truth is, N scale also has a significantly larger slice than O gauge.

As for 3railguy's comment about compatability: The MTH HO line, as announced, would be fully compatible with all other HO equipment. What leads you to believe that it wouldn't be? You would be able to operate them with conventional DC, digital command control (DCC--the standard in HO and N scales), or the MTH DCS system. Seems to me that's about all the versatility one would possibly need.

[railfan23]

I knew this was coming. I took a loco back for repairs in June of 2003 and they had some Athern passenger cars and other boxes on a table. Looked like an alien autopsy, parts all over the place.

[3railguy]

I disagree with Allan. In my associations with HO modelers, I have found them to very intolerant of companies who's equipment is not fully compatible with other brands. O gauge guys and HO guys have a different mindset. Mike Wolf has a new mindset to deal with and is in for some surprises.

[lionelsoni]

Perhaps MTH will now come out with a father-son combined O and HO set, like Lionel did.

[nblum]

Price point is a much, much bigger issue in HO and N than in O three rail, O and Large Scale. The latter groups are used to spending hundreds or even thousands of dollars on locomotives. MTH's competition is Broadway Limited, Lionel and other high end manufacturers, and Broadway Limited's pricing is more attractive based upon this initial offering. I think those in HO who are interested in $300+ locomotives with high tech features are much more likely to be aware of the marketplace issues, ethics questions and other discussions that may well hurt MTH's sales in this niche market. They have some damage control to do to say the least.

[Anonymous]

I am sticking with Broadway and several other makers of good engines. I dont need another entry into the HO side of a company that does a good job with O. Besides these engines are very expensive and for a few dollars more may as well buy brass.

[cnw1995]

MTH may have something here - sure, there are great challenges in cracking a new market - but one of the ways to grow your business is this sort of expansion. My experience on the smaller scale side is there is active interest in new products regardless of the provider. And it is a heck of a bigger market than in our scale. I find there is a generational shift occuring where younger would-be hobbyists, if they have any memories of model trains when growing up in the 1960s or 70s (a huge if) are initially drawn to HO trains rather than O. And for the established hobbyists - if MTH makes something that works with DCC, adds more effects and is less expensive, they'll probably find a niche. If MTH succeeds, they'll be a more stable, vibrant company with resources to expend. I drink to their success! Skoal!

[Anonymous]

O Gauge Overlord,

When you speak of preferring "Manly" trains, I assume that you are referring to Standard Gauge?

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allan Miller

". . . compatible or not, this is going to be a hard sell for Mike. Those HO guys are pretty riled about that patent stuff, and frankly I don't blame them. "
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I think you are greatly overestimating the number of HO modelers who care about patent infringement issues or anything else relating to the business operations of the firms that make their favorite products. Never make the mistake of believing that what you read in an on-line forum--any on-line forum-- represents the pervasive attitude in the hobby as a whole. That simply is not true for any scale or gauge, but particularly for a very large segment of the hobby like HO.

Participate in NMRA national or regional events, and you'll quickly learn that (1) the vast majority of HO and N scale hobbists do not spend ANY time on-line in forum participation of any type, and (2) most hobbyists in those two scales aren't even aware of any legal wranglings between manufacturers, and/or couldn't care less even if they actually are aware.

Brand loyalists in the O gauge segment of this hobby (alone) tend to greatly exaggerate the emotional aspects of industry-related events. Most hobbyists in all scales, I would argue, don't care one way or another about such stuff.

OK Allan, forget all of the emotional stuff. Let's look at this from a marketing perspective. MTH has NO experience in the HO market. Most hobby stores do not carry any MTH products. Only train specialty stores are likely to pick up on this product line. MTH has to convince the dealers to buy in. The only serious MTH dealers near me, don't mix scales, they are exclusive O scale stores, and will not carry this product. Mike has to find a whole new batch of dealers to market this.

Even if this is the best product of it's type on the market, it doesn't mean that it will sell. It reminds me of VHS and Beta.

[Anonymous]

". . . compatible or not, this is going to be a hard sell for Mike. Those HO guys are pretty riled about that patent stuff, and frankly I don't blame them. "
--------------

I think you are greatly overestimating the number of HO modelers who care about patent infringement issues or anything else relating to the business operations of the firms that make their favorite products. Never make the mistake of believing that what you read in an on-line forum--any on-line forum-- represents the pervasive attitude in the hobby as a whole. That simply is not true for any scale or gauge, but particularly for a very large segment of the hobby like HO.

Participate in NMRA national or regional events, and you'll quickly learn that (1) the vast majority of HO and N scale hobbists do not spend ANY time on-line in forum participation of any type, and (2) most hobbyists in those two scales aren't even aware of any legal wranglings between manufacturers, and/or couldn't care less even if they actually are aware.

Brand loyalists in the O gauge segment of this hobby (alone) tend to greatly exaggerate the emotional aspects of industry-related events. Most hobbyists in all scales, I would argue, don't care one way or another about such stuff.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Ogaugeoverlord

It may well be a VERY hard sale, but think back seven or eight years and how many guys vowed they'd never buy Lionel trains if they were made in Asia. As they say, "the rest is history."

Even when they moved the factory, I received loads of what could only be called hate mail (not directed at CTT, but guys venting) about the move. I don't believe Asian production is an obstacle for most guys in the hobby today.

If MTH offers a good-looking, good-running, flexible (i.e. Proto or DCC) steamer that sounds better (HO is about where we were in 1994), and is cheaper than similar products, I think you'll find some HO folks will modify their position. Others will go to the grave hating MTH. But HO is a far larger community than O gauge, so MTH can take off a smaller percent of the community as a whole, and still make a buck.

Well Bob, the Asia thing is kind of a different deal. A bitter pill to say the least, but there are no longer any real options, as all of the major manufacturers have moved there. Lionel did well to hold out as long as they did. Things were different back in the mid 80's with the Mexican move. The HO guys are now experiencing that same shock and dismay as Horizon has taken over Athearn and Roundhouse. The MR topic for this is called "What's NOT made in China?"

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20148

You make an interesting point about the market size issue. Keep in mind that command control is only used by a small percentage of HO modelers. There is a technological resistance barrier in HO just like we have here in O.

John, that is an interesting choice of words, "MTH should go on a good will offensive." Many here would say that MTH's behavior has been "offensive". The question is, can any GOOD will be found?

[Anonymous]

Whether you like Mike or hate Mike, he has some fence mending to do with the customer base. MTH offers a selection of product which is unmatched in 3-rail. His line of subway trains have opened up an area of modeling where 042 curves are prototypical and myself along with many of my friends are enjoying these unique products. However, I have never before heard of a model train company which is actually so vehemently disliked by so many hobbyists. MTH should go on a good will offensive. Really.

[Bob Keller]

It may well be a VERY hard sale, but think back seven or eight years and how many guys vowed they'd never buy Lionel trains if they were made in Asia. As they say, "the rest is history."

Even when they moved the factory, I received loads of what could only be called hate mail (not directed at CTT, but guys venting) about the move. I don't believe Asian production is an obstacle for most guys in the hobby today.

If MTH offers a good-looking, good-running, flexible (i.e. Proto or DCC) steamer that sounds better (HO is about where we were in 1994), and is cheaper than similar products, I think you'll find some HO folks will modify their position. Others will go to the grave hating MTH. But HO is a far larger community than O gauge, so MTH can take off a smaller percent of the community as a whole, and still make a buck.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Yeah Bob, compatible or not, this is going to be a hard sell for Mike. Those HO guys are pretty riled about that patent stuff, and frankly I don't blame them.

There is a topic over on MR about this. Some of us 3 rail guys have weighed in over there. While there are some MTH fans in our ranks, there are others who seem to feel as I do. What Mike has done may be shrewd, but public opinion is against him. I don't expect this HO venture to be successful. Time will tell.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=21652

[LuthierTom]

I'm with big boy on this one. [:(!]

[Anonymous]

DC, DCC, and DCS capability in one package--something for everyone. Definitely the right way for MTH to approach their entry into the HO segment of the hobby.

[Bob Keller]

Reportedly, the new loco will be compatible with both DCS and DCC. But this is an issue for the HO guys to ponder. I personally prefer manly trains.

Oh, thats a joke.[:D]

[3railguy]

I agree with Big Boy. HO guys are hell bent on compatibility. NMRA standards or you're out. Price will be a factor too. If MTH patents their own little world and sues everybody as they have with O gauge, their HO line will only be as popular as Marklin if popular at all.