General 4-4-0 Locomotives

[Anonymous]

Hey Ya'll


As part of my colection, I plan to collect The Great Train Robbery Lionel Train Set. I was woundering, Is Williams Planing to reproduce the 1959-1963 General Set and Uncatolouged "Halloween" General. They would be great for my collection. What do ya'll think.

Nick

[Anonymous]

Nick,

Lionel has reproduced the "Halloween" General. I do not know there are any left over. It was a special deal for LCCA. We are still waiting for the sets to ship. Hopefully very soon!

[ben10ben]

Probably not. Lionel is still making the General regularly, so there wouldn't be much of a market for the Williams version.

The 1959-1963 set is pretty common and inexpensive. The Lionel Collectors Club of America recently had Lionel reproduce the Halloween set, and one of those may be available

[Anonymous]

I don't believe that Williams has any plans for a 4-4-0--not at this time, at least. Of course, anything could change in the future. I have a fairly large collection of Lionel's contemporary era 4-4-0s (I'm a real fan of 19th Century motive power and rolling stock), and really like them. I sold my MTH 4-4-0 collection about a year or so ago--just didn't like the looks of them quite as well as the Lionel versions, even though both are considerably oversize for a 4-4-0 "American."

I had hoped to get the LCCA "Halloween" version, and even re-joined the LCCA in order to purchase it. However, I never received anything from them, nor heard from them, until some time after the ordering period for that train elapsed (they supposedly were only going to make the number actually ordered). I received a membership renewal notice from LCCA this past week. I think not, fellas! I was not impressed with how my initial membership request last year was handled (which was, of coures, promptly charged to my credit card). I can live well enough without the Halloween version though, so all it means is that the LCCA lost one sale and one member.

[spankybird]

Gee Allan,
I am surprised that you preferred the Lionel over the MTH 4-4-0. I also have both and would prefer the MTH one, both for detail and operation. MTH also has a large offering in 19th century rolling stock.


MTH


MTH


Lionel


MTH


MTH


MTH rolling stock


more MTH rolling stock

click on the pic to enlarge them.

Now I do have to admit, that the MTH does cost more, but both the engine and tender are diecast, it has smoke, whistle, bell, and full DCS for list of $300.00 and can be bought for $265.00.
This is just part of my 4-4-0, visit our web page and see more.

I guess the bottom line is, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.


tom

[ben10ben]

I too prefer the Lionel. The MTH has too fat of a boiler and sits too high over the wheels.

By the way, the Lionel is actually fairly close to scale, at least lengthwise(about a scale foot too long). It's about 5 scale feet too tall, though, which I know would bother many people.

[spankybird]

Ben, I sorry, I am going to disagree with most of your statements. Have both types of engines in my round house, it is easy to compare them.

The boiler on the MTH is larger then the Lionel, MTH = 1.180” and the Lionel = 1.020” which is a difference of 0.160” or approx. 5/32.

The length of the engines are the same as you can see from this overhead shot.

The MTH is blue, the Lionel has the red cab. From this shot, the Lionel looks longer. The tender of the MTH is longer, but it has DCS, (whistle, bell, etc.)


Over all height of engines are about the same.


Now the MTH is in front.


Keep in mind, the MTH has a lot more inside it than the Lionel, can motor with flywheel, etc.

Let’s also keep in mind, neither engine is anywhere close to scale, that’s why these are toy trains.



tom

[ben10ben]

Tom,
I appreciate you taking the time to take those pictures and make the measurement. I also don't want this to be a Lionel-MTH argument, as I'm sure the MTH model is an extremely fine model as well. I still think, though, that the Lionel model is better looking. What bothers me about the MTH model is that from the smokebox, the boiler extends straight down to the cylinders, rather than curving under like the Lionel model does. This gives the MTH model the appearence of being "fatter" as well as sitting higher on the wheels than it really does(or at least in my opinion).

The MTH model, from what I understand, though, is die-cast with a die-cast tender, rather than the all-plastic Lionel model. This, in my mind, does give it a considerable advantage, as well as the additional electronics. MTH also appears to have added an extra 3 scale feet to the tender, which puts the tender right in line with prototype dimensions.

Is that the MPC General made from 1978-80? If it is, I have the exact same one, along with the 3 matching passenger cars and the horse car.

[spankybird]

I see your point Ben on the setback.

With out going back down stairs and checking numbers, I believe it is or at least about that time frame. I pick it up at a show with all the cars, new in the box for $225.00 if I recall correctly.



I have the house car and passenger cars for all my Lionel engines.

And yes, the MTH is all diecast, including the tender. It has much better pulling power because of this. Also the MTH’s are either PS1 or PS2.

If I were to make a bet, I would say that MTH is going to come out with a scaled version of one, after all, they are doing a scaled 19th century 2-6-0.

tom

[lionelsoni]

My research has led me to a total length for the General and its tender of 52 feet, whereas I measure the Lionel model at 37+27, or 64 feet, well over scale. The gauge, unlike every other Lionel model, is correct: 5 feet.

I have been unable to learn whether the General's front drivers are or were blind. Surely some forum participant lives close enough to Kennesaw (Big Shanty) to make some observations.

The Lionel model's drivers are not quartered; but I forgive them since their purpose was the very clever use of the boiler as an air pump, with the piston driven by the connected crossheads.

[Anonymous]

Hey Ya'll

Tom, that is a nice collection you have there. I am at school right now. Does anybody know if LCCA still has some Lionel Halloween Generals? I would love to have all that stuff. I looks great.

Nick

[Anonymous]

The only way you'll get the LCCA Halloween General (once they are released) is on the secondary market--and probably at a healthy premium, at least for a while. As I noted in my previous post, they were supposed to make only the number actually ordered--presumably to preserve its "collector value," if there is such a thing these days.

I prefer the Lionel 4-4-0s over the MTH models simply because I like the overall look/proportions better. Simply a decision based on appearances (to my eyes) and not on construction material or pulling power. The real 4-4-0s only pulled a few cars anyhow, so I don't need something that will haul more than four or five cars.

[Anonymous]

Hey Ya'll

I like the Lionel 4-4-0s the best [:D] [:D] [:D]. They look more like the realthing. Yet, I still love the variaty of MTH's 4-4-0's. They look good too. [:D] [:D] [:D]

Nick

[Anonymous]

As with anything else: Different strokes for different folks. Obviously sufficient numbers of folks like the MTH 4-4-0s; otherwise they wouldn't be selling them. My preference is for the Lionel models, even though they lack some of the operational features of their Lionel counterparts. Again, as a big fan of 19th century railroading, and as something of a student of Civil War era railroading in particular, I simply prefer the "lines" and look of the Lionel models. Strictly a matter of personal preference--as is anything in this hobby.

[ben10ben]

As Allan said, only you can say which one you like better, but I do very strongly prefer the look of the wrap-around boiler on the Lionel model, and the lack of this is the biggest thing that kills the MTH model for me. Although neither model is a true-to-scale model, the Lionel portrayal is more prototypically accurate in terms of the wrap-around boiler as well.

[eZAK]

I too am in the market again for a 'General' type loco.

I do have a few questions though,
First; Is there a difference between a 'General' and a 'American'?
If so, what? Also, What engine did the South use during the Cival War?

Second; Has Lionel ever made one with TMCC? (not including 'holloween')
If so, what is the number? Also, Would it be easier to convert a MTH PS-1 Gen.
to TMCC Or add TMCC to a Lionel?

Thank You!

[Anonymous]

EZAK,

The 4-4-0 locomotives are considered "Americans" according to the Whyte system. Just like a 4-6-4 is a Hudson, a 4-6-2 is a Pacific, etc.

The North and the South used the 4-4-0 as pretty much the standard configuration during the war and for quite a while after. It was ideally suited to the rough track and sharp curves of the time.

Locomotives used to receive individual names, such as the "Jupiter" (Central Pacific locomotive) or the "Texas" (which chased the original General while running backwards during part of the "Great Locomotive Chase" in the Civil War.

"General "was the name of the Conferderate locomotive that the Andrews Raiders stole (resulting in the Great Locomotive Chase). That was the one reproduced by Lionel and MTH and is probably the most famous of all of them.

The O gauge models are generically known as "Generals" probably because the tooling for both the MTH and Lionel models were first manufactured as models of the original General (supposition on my part).

As far as TMCC goes:

I posted to a thread on the OGR forum regarding the TAS boards for the Beeps, asking Ernie if it would fit in a Lionel General. He believes it will. If you call TAS, tell them what you are using it for so they will supply you with exactly the right components.

If you want to convert an MTH PS-1model, I would probably use an "Equalizer" from Digital Dynamics. It is a simple replacement for the lower board of the PS-1electronics. I have installed two of these and they both work fine.

I believe that TAS might have a board similar to the Equalizer now, but I have not yet tried one (both companies make very high quality electronics).

If you were going to covert an MTH PS-2 locomotive to TMCC, I would advise against it. In my opinion (and it is just my opinion after operating TMCC and DCS for two years now) that the money to convert to TMCC electronics would be better used by putting it towards DCS. DCS can be had sometimes for as low as $250.00 and works well with TMCC.

Again, the last part is just my opinion.

[Anonymous]

As RAK noted, both sides in the Civil War used the 4-4-0 "American"-type locomotive extensively. In a real sense, it was the "standard" locomotive of that era. And, the "General" was, indeed, just one locomotive--operated by the Western & Atlantic--and not a whole class of locomotive. The story of the "General" and the Andrews Raid is a part of American history, and can be seen in films starring Fess Parker and Buster Keaton. Both are available on video, and both are well worth having if you like 4-4-0s.

None of the Lionel locomotives to date came TMCC-equipped.

[Anonymous]

Back in the olden days, early Americans had that peculiar characteristic of forgoing tradition for practicality. By the 1830's steam locomotives had taken on that look of the "American Standard", which remained in production until the turn of the next century.
It is estimated that about 25,000 of them were produced.

"The American Standard" was the general purpose locomotive (GP) of its day, with specific modifications applied to suit its particular task. It's general characteristics were a central frame with all the components bolted on the outside where they can be monitored and maintained easily (contrast this with the europeans who preferred hidden components and fender skirts).

There was a locomotive company called "American" that produced the American Standard, but then so did all the other companies not named american.

"The General" gained fame from its part in that civil war story and the film "The General" with Buster Keaton and subtitles. In 1957, Walt Disney reproduced the story as only Walt Disney could do in "The Great Locomotive Chase." Fess Parker and Jeffrey Hunter were in their prime, and so was Disney (recommended viewing).

In 1939, the movie "Union Pacific" showcased the "General McPherson" starring the "Bowker", an 0-4-0 from the V & T, and the other engines of notariety: the "Jupiter" and the "119".

Back to that American peculiarity for the utilitarian, General does roll off the tongue easier than Jupiters or 119's. In Lionelspeak, everyone knows what you are referring to when you ask for the "robbery general" or one of the "civil war generals" (my favorite is the "circus general" - I own 3).

In MTH, one is "The General", and my other the "Texas".

In Athern/Rivarossi, they are simply "Old Timers"

In real life, it seems my kids prefer the "Lionel General" because they use it the most. It has a low center of gravity and doesn't fall off the track as easily as the others. Plus it takes a trainwreck pretty well. They think it should whistle though.

On the practical side, the American Standard will negotiate the smallest radius of track, and there is no need to buy all those expensive little cars.

The Virginia & Truckee (V&T) Railroad had a period of benign neglect which allowed it to remain intact until mid 20th century. In the early 90's a "toy train nut" got elected governor of Nevada and a substantial sum of money was allotted to the Nevada State Train Museum in Carson City. Check it out, its worth it. -Rick

[lionelsoni]

I have to disagree about having all the works on the outside. American types almost always used Stephenson valve gear, located inside the frame. Just look at any picture of one to not see the valve gear. The last one I saw, at the St. Louis museum, also had the cylinders inside the frame.

[3railguy]

It's hard to say with Williams. Anything is possible. Much of the current Golden Memories line was created with tooling they already had with exception of F-3 engines, closed hoppers, gondolas, and a couple other items. A general set would require all new tooling.

Lionel is making general starter sets at price points that would give Williams some stiff competition so the risk may be on the high side. With command control and all, Lionel geeps and F-3's are pricey so Williams has an edge.

I don't think general type engines are as popular with O gauge fans as later era diesels and steamers. But they are gaining popularity. So who knows.

[Anonymous]

J. W. Bowker, featured in the movie "Union Pacific" as the "General McPherson" was a 2-4-0, not an 0-4-0. I would buy a model of this, if it came with an O scale Barbara Stanwyck! [;)]

[NYC Fan]

Ben,
I have seen Civil War Era pictures of the real General locomotive and I believe the lines of the boiler, at least at the front near the smoke box, are more acurately portrayed by the MTH version. Pictures I've seen make the boiler front look like an up-side-down U, with no wrap around at the front. The General was rebuilt from ruins after the Civil War and it's present day appearance is dramatically different than the way it looked during the Civil War. But, I don't think the U shape of the boiler front changed.

Please correct me if I'm wrong!

Skip

[Anonymous]

Skip, you're right about the smokebox. The original General did in fact have a so-called "D" shaped smokebox; the cylinders were bolted to this, as opposed to the more modern "cylinder saddle" with integral cylinders. The boilers of all locomtives are round.

The problem is, with the MTH, the boiler itself matches this "D" shape--clearly incorrect.

However, I prefer the MTH, even wit the terrible boiler shape, vs. the Lionel, with it's rediculous-looking "bay window" cab front, primitive detailing, and solid drivers and pilot.

[spankybird]

Hi All,

I wanted to pop back in here just to again say that neither Lionel or MTH is making a scaled engine here, and it isn’t fair to compare them to each other. The Lionel is made on tooling that has to be something like 40 years old and is made of plastic as MTH is made from tooling 7 years old and is diecast.

If you are looking at an engine to run, the MTH is PS2 with forward, neutral, reverse, whistle, bell, sound, you know, full DCS.

The Lionel has forward and reverse, and smoke. The ones that I have, do not have a whistle or bell. For the smoke unit to work, the voltage has to be so high, the engine won’t be able to say on the track.

If you want to run the engine, then the MTH is the one to use, but also remember it does cost more.

BTW Welcome to the forum Steve. Join in the fun more often.



tom

[3railguy]

Maybe third rail will do a scale model. Getting a decent size motor in a small boiler is the tricky part.

[spankybird]

I have to agree with you John. It is tuff to put all that in a small boiler.

MTH may be close, look at the Scale 19th Cent steamer they are coming out with.



http://www.mth-railking.com/detail.asp?item=20-3141-1

Makes you wonder how the HO guys do it.
tom

[3railguy]

Wow Tom, MTH is doing that? I haven't gotten my new MTH catalog yet. Will be interesting to see.

[spankybird]

John, its in the 2004 vol 2 cat. Its also 3 rail or 2 rail, 3 different road names. Who knows when it will really be at the dealers, but it seams that they have gotten better on the high end price stuff with delievers.

I have been hoping to see something new in there next catalog witch is due out in a couple of weeks.
tom

[Anonymous]

Thanks for the welcome, Tom. I'm better known over on the OGR board as smd4, but that name was taken here.

I've got the MTH engine on order--it's the first scale 19th century engine modeled in 3-rail scale by any of the big manufacturers to date.

On a side note, it is entirely possible to mount a decent sized motor in a small 19th century engine. It is being done as we speak.

And yes, I model only the 19th century, so the recent developments really have me excited!