IDM1991 I wonder why this Marx 3000 steam locomotive is paired with a NYC. The colours and overall appearance are more or less identical to the F-1a and F-2a 4-4-4 "Jubilee" locomotives which were once operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I have a Marx locomotive of an identical shape, and although I got it with the inevitiable NYC tender, I believe it was originally sold as part of a British outfit, as I have seen pictures of it paired with red and yellow UK-outline passenger carriages, which I also have. The locomotive I have, though, came to me at Christmas, 2006, and included the Rock Island gondola shown in overlandflyer's outfit, along with a stock car and, yes, the inevitable red NYC conductor's "van," as we call them here in Canada, on the end of the train.Here are some prototype pictures of the CPR "Jubilees: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/jubilee.htm
I wonder why this Marx 3000 steam locomotive is paired with a NYC. The colours and overall appearance are more or less identical to the F-1a and F-2a 4-4-4 "Jubilee" locomotives which were once operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I have a Marx locomotive of an identical shape, and although I got it with the inevitiable NYC tender, I believe it was originally sold as part of a British outfit, as I have seen pictures of it paired with red and yellow UK-outline passenger carriages, which I also have. The locomotive I have, though, came to me at Christmas, 2006, and included the Rock Island gondola shown in overlandflyer's outfit, along with a stock car and, yes, the inevitable red NYC conductor's "van," as we call them here in Canada, on the end of the train.Here are some prototype pictures of the CPR "Jubilees: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/jubilee.htm
there were certainly some holes in the Marx product lines. although CP and PA tenders existed, they never made vans (i like that term, especially in the plural form) for those roads. in a similar but reverse situation, in the Marx 3/16" scale, they made both a Reading and an NYC caboose, but never made a Reading tender (though a friend made a quite believable one for me). in the case of freight trains, with the NYC caboose so prevalent, the NYC wedge tender was usually the set choice, especially since the locomotives, albeit dead ringers for the CP types, were essentially unmarked and only numbered, 3000, in a few versions. although at best it only came as a 2-4-2, at least Marx got the # of drive wheels right on their Canadian Pacific types. i also have a feeling Marx chose this locomotive for the ease in building a formed metal model very close to a prototype. with a simple, straight boiler and streamlined shrouding to cover normally detailed areas i think Marx really captured the essence of this locomotive in a simple, beautiful design. and with practically interchangeable parts making various cab, boiler, sideboard, pilot, smokebox, stack and dome variations, there may be more of these types than anyone might care to collect. thanks for the link to those pictures. that truly was a sharp looking class! cheers...gary
I noticed that nothing has come up about prewar 6 inch cars with 8-wheel trucks yet, so since they're my favorite series, I'll bring it up. They came in two ways, either with tab-and-slot couplers, or automatic one-way couplers.
The trucks are shown on the car in the top of the picture, and the unique couplers are demonstrated as well (they are known as "one-way" couplers for obvious reasons). They were most commonly headed by a Canadian Pacific steamer in sets, but other engines such the 897 were used as well. I have only seen cars with automatic couplers in sets, but cars with tab-and-slot couplers may have been sold in sets as well.
I have also never seen a Commodore Vanderbilt with 8-wheel cars in a boxed set, but as the saying goes, "never say never", maybe someone will prove me wrong. I do not have a very complete collection of these cars, so I will leave the task of posting pictures of them to someone else who does (I did, however, include my 3000 in the "intro" picture on page 1)
If you would like to see more of the catalog above, it is found here:
http://marxtinplatetrains.com/marx_paper.htm
Trevor
aside from a few electric outline locomotives, almost all my motive power is steam EXCEPT for Marx tin. known as the Erie-built, FM types, in the late 1950's Marx produced three roadnames that proved to be very versatile, not to mention extremely colorful.
photographing tinplate is never a certainty for me, so to make sure things turned out well, i only shot the Seaboard livery today, but will follow up shortly with Monon and the beautiful Kansas City Southern models.
#4000 Seaboard diesel
it would be hard to come up with a better example than this Seaboard powered A and dummy unit to show that by this point in their history, Marx was truly the master of litho graphics. at a casual glance, its hard to convince your mind that you're actually looking at a practically smooth metal shape.
Greenberg lists five different versions of the Seaboard diesel, but i have yet to find a large electric motor version.
the small electric motor version is easy to spot as it is mounted with screws located just in front of the SEABOARD roadname.
Small A/C motor
as you can see in this picture, the small motor unfortunately includes a flange-mounted drive gear and as with many large motor Marx locomotives, this one also suffers derailments when run through guard-rail protected switches and crossovers.
#4000 Seaboard diesel w/ clockwork motor
clockwork Seaboard diesels seem to be the most widely seen in sets and with the standard square keyed Marx drive, the middle left side porthole was designed to line up perfectly with the motor. of course, using the same form-fit, if you can ignore the physical differences (key hole and brake slot openings) of the clockwork unit, a standard Marx electric motor also with the low mounting screws, would work just as well in this shell.
#4000 dummy A unit
often coupled to a powered A unit, the 4-wheel dummy A was the most popular set add-in.
(4001) dummy B unit
...but much less often seen in the Seaboard livery, was the (4001) dummy B.
unlike the Monon and KCS passenger sets which included the standard red 6" passenger consist, the Seaboard livery had matching green livery coaches (which i'll get to at a later date), but alternately for freight trains, a colorful 6" Seaboard caboose was available to bring up the rear.
#956 Seaboard Air Lines caboose ...tempted to grab those handrails?
one great benefit of the low cost and general availability of Marx is satisfying the need to experiment at times without too much consequence. taking a drill and file to a C6+ condition dummy A unit, i did a little experimenting with an A-A clockwork powered consist.
custom built powered 'dummy' A unit
purely from observation it seemed as though coupling two clockwork drives in the same consist more than doubles the pulling capacity of a single motor. i have a feeling James might chime in on this matter knowing he has also dabbled in the area of multiple coupled clockwork drives. cheers...gary
As odd as it might sound to use multiple clockwork drives in a train, it does work very good. Like Gary said, using two clockwork motors more than doubles the tractive effort - I chalk this up to the fact that Marx windups are very sensitive to slick spots in the track, since they only pull with one axle. When they are loaded to their limit, it isn't unusual to see them alternately slip and grip, with the train stalling when it slips (naturally). By using multiple clockwork motors, usually one axle will be pulling even when another is slipping, keeping the train moving until the slipping motor regains traction. As exhibit "A", take a look at my 1203 Triplex pulling 29 cars:
watch?v=U96L1YcuI4o
The 1203 was kitbashed from 2 Marx 401 windups, with a third 401 windup motor in the tender. A stock 401 struggles to move 7 cars around the same track, which would only equal 21 cars for the 1203. Granted, the 1203 has a bit of extra weight, but not enough on the drivers to make up an extra 8 cars... and the 1203 would pull more, if I had a bigger loop and enough cars to do it.
Of course, I like to double-head the windup Commodore Vanderbilts, too:
watch?v=KsKg5mv0 nc
Speaking of CV's, let's take a look at a couple of postwar clockwork Vandys. First up is a black postwar CV:
The black drivers and motor sideplates are a postwar giveaway. Until about 1947 or '48, the drivers would have been nickel plated, and the motor sideplates either bare metal or plated. Also, note that this model doesn't have any siderods - a further cost cutting measure on the cheapest of train sets. CVs can be found with or without siderods.
Next up is a Red Flyer from 1947 or '48:
Sears and Wards both sold "Red Flyer" clockwork trainsets in 1947 - '48. A red clockwork CV headed up a train consisting of a red 551 tender, two passenger cars and an observation. In 1948, the set only came with one passenger car instead of two, but still had the observation. I have seen the Red Flyer windups with both the nickel plated drivers (like this one) and black drivers, lending further evidence to the black drivers being introduced either late '47 or '48. Unlike the Red whistling CV sold by Sears pre-war, these CVs came with the normal sparking motor - no whistle.
Just a couple more notes: Marx apparently did not produce trains from 1943 to 1945 due to WWII. I believe that the prewar, bottom of the line CV with the simple body is identical to the CVs produced immediately postwar until the drivers and motor changed from nickel to black. As far as I can tell from period advertisements, the mechanical CV wasn't sold after 1948.
There are other details that I haven't covered about the CVs, but we have pretty much hit the highlights up to now. There are a lot of other Marx mechanical locomotives to cover, but none with as many variations as the CV!
- James
while i was snapping pictures the other evening, i came across a very familiar box...
(#348) Right-O-Way Railroad Signs
a few plastic versions of Marx railroad signs followed later, but this was the only metal set.
is there anyone out there who doesn't have at least one of these sign posts somewhere on their layout or stashed away in an old set box? yup, they're Marx.
fun stuff...gary
to complete my post started with the Seaboard diesel, the other two Marx F-M types were the Monon and Kansas City Southern.
#81 Monon - large motor (gray pilot) and small motor (black pilot) electrics
the Monon and KCS diesels both came as large or small motor electrics.
#54 Kansas City Southern - large (left) and small motor electrics
based only on the one example i have of each, unlike both the Monon or Seaboard small motor version, the KCS model had both a headlight lens in place backed by a bulb & socket attached to the motor mount.
KCS small motor w/ mounted headlight
typical large motor used in F-M models w/ headlight and reverse unit
the large motors all had double reduction gearing which allows these models to run on most trackwork.
(82) Monon 4-wheel dummy B w/ plastic knuckle coupler
both the Monon and KCS also had two types of B units. the 4-wheel version came with the Marx dummy plastic knuckle coupler...
(55) KCS 8-wheel dummy B w/ plastic automatic tilt coupler
and the 8-wheel version with an auto coupler. when included in sets, these B units opened up the possibilities to couple to and pull just about any Marx consist of the day, from 4 wheel tin or plastic to deluxe 8 wheel sets.
#54 KCS 4-wheel dummy A unit
dummy A units were also made in both roadnames.
#81 Monon w/ clockwork drive
unlike the KCS, however, the Monon did come in a clockwork motor version; like the small electric motor, with the distinctive black frame pieces. the large electric motor model of both roadnames is by far the most commonly seen version, though.
#31055 Monon 6" caboose
#5563 KCS 6" caboose
with most prototypes typically painted in boring red or brown, Marx didn't let the tinplate crowd down with these matching livery cabooses, either. unlike the Seaboard roadname, the Monon and KCS each also had a 7" caboose in these same colors to match up with appropriate consists.
cheers...gary
Old Commodore Vanderbilt engines are asking to be customized.
dsmith Old Commodore Vanderbilt engines are asking to be customized.
well, i'm not sure old Cornelius would agree with your choice of a slightly competitive mid-west roadname, but to comment on customization in general, there certainly are plenty of Marx restoration or repaint candidates out there; the most amazing part being that 9 out of 10 times the bullet-proof Marx drive is still functional.
however, as James has been discussing in his CV series, there are a few models i might hesitate to touch in any condition (eg: original green or silver (or frankly anything other than black), swing peg coupler versions, etc). perhaps true for anything old, not only trains, ...get a second and third opinion first, before you remove any original finish.
nice job on the model, by the way, ...any coaches? cheers...gary
Very nice, David! Fortunately there are a lot of common, black, beat-up CV's out there for restoration or customization. Here is a great example of a customized CV... a dual CV made from two CV shells welded together. Wish I had thought of it! I would love to make a clockwork version someday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMkx1Vy5UmE
the Marx 7" line may well have been the oddest niche in the company's history. brought out in haste to compete with 1949's Unique Arts train sets which claimed to be the largest O gauge trains on the market, this line also included the very popular Disney train. Authorized by Walt Disney Productions and only offered in a clockwork form, this one was just for fun.
starting with Mickey on the smokebox front, this colorful set was litho'ed with many Disney characters.
engineer Donald Duck looks to be in control (or maybe just keeping an eye on the nephews?) and on the fIreman's side, Mickey definitely appears distracted by Minnie while Goofy better hang on to the cab roof. the (994) Meteor locomotive with clockwork motor featured the 'sparkling' drive; the cars were all 4-wheel with tab & slot couplers.
keeping the side themes consistent, Mickey and Donald appear again on the tender along with whom i can best guess as Bashful keeping watch from the tender deck.
the #1476 boxcar featured Dumbo, José Carioca & Figaro among others...
while the gondola sported Jiminy Cricket, Pluto, Thumper & four more dwarfs; Happy, Grumpy, Dopey & Doc. unusual for Marx, the Disney set litho was their only complete train to have different graphics on each car side.
bringing up the rear was the #691521 Disney caboose. this one has always had me stumped. i definitely recognize the side with Pinocchio, Daisy Duck & Pluto (acting the typical dog part with head out the window) as well as the roof with Bambi, Flower and possibly Dumbo's friend Timothy Mouse(?), but i've never been able to ID the numbered side characters, ...the bears? ...anyone?
new Marx, Ameritrains, reissued a similar O gauge set, but in a slightly smaller size, in the 90's as an electric motor version.
i thought i'd get around to photographing more 7" Marx, but couldn't track down the B&O set so that'll be another day. i did want to wrap up the Monon and KCS sub-thread so here are those 7" vans.
#3855 - 7" Monon caboose
both came as only 4-wheel versions and i've never seen anything but the plastic knuckle coupler on the Monon caboose which only came as #3855 ...
#966 - 7" Kansas City Southern caboose
...but there were 15 different numbers for the KCS version; 966 through 980. this is an error that has been in the Greenberg Price Guides forever; stating the lowest number in the series to be #969. it also puts this model in line with the similar B&O and NYC versions which both also had 15 numbers. the plastic knuckle coupler seems to be more common on the KCS caboose, but i have seen at least one example with a tab coupler.
Love those Disney windups. I've been trying to get my hands on a set for years.
I love the disney set photos, The cars & Loco look like the ones in my 7" Nickel Plate Road Set,
I'd love to post some photos of it but I do not have any luck keeping my photos in the free photo bucket type accounts (they always seem to dissapear) and I stink at .html code, would anyone like me to email them photos of my Marx set to post on here, is there an easy way to post photos here?
By the way If anyone is interested in a set there has been a guy at the Allentown PA train meet with one of those Disney Sets for that last 3 years, It must be priced high or does not appeal to the highrail crowd arround here. Next show is in November and the vendor is usually near the middle of the big room near the snack bar, any one know who that might be?
rack776 I love the Disney set photos, The cars & Loco look like the ones in my 7" Nickel Plate Road Set, ...
I love the Disney set photos, The cars & Loco look like the ones in my 7" Nickel Plate Road Set, ...
the 994 Meteor locomotive in your set is essentially the same shell used for the Disney model, but various modifications occurred over the years. the 0-4-0 drive was the same as any other Marx loco, but dummy wheels were added to the embossed frame to visually help stretch out the small motor. the 994 came as both electric and clockwork versions. the red painted shell is less common and when coupled to the red Nickel Plate Tender, it becomes one of the most sought after combinations.
Marx #994 locomotive
pictured above is what might be called the deluxe version. most notably, the number '994' actually appears under the cab windows which is rare. other items that may or may not have appeared were the headlight, headlight hood and handrails. also note that this version has separate pieces for the domes whereas the Disney model and some later 994's had the domes pressed into the boiler shell itself.
Marx 994 - 898 comparison
but the whole point of the 994 was size. here it is alongside a companion Marx loco, the (898). at 10¼" coupled to the extra length of a 7" tender, it essentially did its job in that Unique Arts went out of the O gauge train business the following year. by the early 1950's that new-fangled material called plastic was coming into use, however, and the late-comer, sheet metal #994 only saw a few years of production.
Another example of the 994, this one a reversing clockwork:
Again, note that the drivers and motor sideplates are black instead of plated, typical of postwar Marx. Also, note the brake/reverse lever has the tell-tale bend that lets us know at a glance it is a reversing windup motor. As Gary pointed out in his previous post, this version has the domes pressed in as part of the body, as opposed to the seperate domes on the deluxe version.
I don't collect 7" tin; but I did want to have a couple of pieces for my 994 to pull around the layout:
Nothing rare; just a Wabash gondola and Nickel Plate caboose with Slot & Tab couplers. It sure does make a nice looking train on the layout, and the reversing clockwork motor can be fun, too!
In case you missed it, here is my portable Marx windup layout with 6" tinplate cars.
I have found the simple joy in playing with old windup Marx trains. Like many of us who have windup trains, we end up operating them on our electric train layouts. But wouldn't it be great to have a small dedicated windup layout complete with mechanical windup accessories. I don't have room for another layout and windup trains are enjoyed as an occasional diversion for short periods of time, so I came up with the perfect solution to my problem.....a portable case that will easily folds out into a layout on any small table (or on the floor) and will store all the trains and layout accessories. And it can all be compactly stored away when finished. Although I am not finished with the layout, here are photos and video of the basic idea.
http://youtu.be/5XrUaxeDLLs
Awesome Dave!!!!!
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
We've moved on to 7 inch I see! Not much to cover here. Since there were only 4 different freight cars, and a handful of cabooses, there isn't much to collect. However, there is quite a few different numbers for car, allowing a "variation nut" to literally go nuts buying them all.
As soon as I find where I misplaced my camera, I will post pictures of my lone 7 inch set.
since James contributed the clockwork version of the 1950's Meteor locomotive, it might be worth mentioning that, when running wind-ups for the public, i generally get the idea most people think that when electric motors came into existence, clockworks went out the door. but they are usually surprised to hear that clockwork sets persisted into the early 1970's, and even then it actually took an act of congress with the Consumer Product Safety Act (1972) to put an end to yet another traditional childhood pastime.
it was never a matter of technology, but of cost. without a third rail, a transformer (a big chunk of iron then, not like the modern switching supplies of today), and having a less expensive motor; clockwork sets were typically less than half the cost of a similar electric set. of course, as collectables these days, condition far outweighs the original sticker price and just off the top of my head i can think of more clockwork than electrics that are likely near the top of most Marxist's wish lists.
one of those which i was extremely lucky to find at a bargain price, was not even a Marx product. in 1927, The Girard Model Works of Girard, PA started making toy floor trains (later including a small circle of track) selling them over the counter at department stores. in 1928, Louis Marx, already a giant in the toy industry, started selling Girard's 'The Joy Line' trains on commission. it was this relationship with the company concluding in the outright purchase of a depression-hit Model Works in 1934 that usually blurs the line of where collecting Marx really starts. there were surely pieces that were out of production by 1934, but quite a bit of leftover Joy Line stock was sold by Marx those first years.
#350 The Joy Line loco & #351 "Koal Kar" tender
one of the first Joyline pieces was the #350 clockwork loco paired with the #351 "Koal Kar" tender, both sporting very colorful litho detail, but with by far one of the worst spring drives in history. to paraphrase a well-known Marx collector, even if it's poorly formed flanges held the track, it rarely made more than a single loop around a 19" circle and could barely pull even a single add-on car. ads for this loco were seen as late as 1930, but this was surely one of the first pieces to leave the market being replaced by a stronger, but much less charming, cast iron model.
The Joy Line Electric Train Set - (note: 200 5th Ave also being the Marx NYC headquarters)
the next generation locomotive was the first practical power offered that could not only hold the rails, but along with the more commonly seen upgraded clockwork motor version (102), an electric motor locomotive was also offered for the first time by Girard.
(101) Joyline electric locomotive w/ headlight & (351) small tender
and if you're lucky enough to come across a complete electric set, you should also find another desirable piece...
Girard Power House transformer
the colorful Girard Power House enclosed a center tapped transformer with a simple control that essentially gave the operator two speeds (voltages) to choose from, (...likely too slow and not fast enough!). i left some of the original cord & plug in the picture (which i'll never replace) to give you an idea of the scale. i must admit, until i saw one in person, i always thought this was a much larger piece, but if it's really a multistory building, i'd say it is closer to N scale.
the Joy Line freight cars and caboose, following the lead of the #351 "Koal Kar" all had somewhat whimsical names...
#355 "Hobo Rest" Boxcar; #354 "Contractor Dump Car" - (early blue frame versions)
the first Joy Line cars rode on distinctive blue frames and had very light gauge metal tab/ slot couplers.
(356) "Eagle Eye Caboose", (352) "Venice Gondola" & #353 "Everful Tank Car"
later version freight cars kept the same upper bodies but the frames and couplers changed to a slightly heavier gauge with a longer wheelbase design in black. as with the boxcar roof and doors, solid car pieces such as the caboose roof and tank car dome and ends can be found in colors not pictured here.
similarly, the earliest Joy Line passenger cars sat on the early blue frame with a distinctively different yellow roof than the more common roof adopted when the frames changed to the same style as the later freight cars.
#357 Joy Line coach, #458 observation car w/ red roofs; #458 obsv w/ lighted drumhead.
normally seen in orange, the red roof version passenger cars turn up occasionally. unlike the lithographed sides of the Joy Line coaches, the solid color roofs and frames are not difficult to disassemble and refinish. finding consistent wear is a good indication of an original piece. greatly worn sides with perfectly finished roofs and/ or frames would be a very red flag to me.
the #458 lighted drumhead observation is a highly sought after variation. be aware that reproduction drumheads have been made in the past.
Joy Line (left) vs. Marx (1935) wheel sets.
another check for a completely original Joy Line piece is looking closely at the wheels and axles. Joy Line wheels are noticeably larger and slightly more crudely made than even the first generation of Marx tinplate wheels shown above. also unlike the first Marx cars, later Joy Line wheel sets (black frame cars) should be crimped on the axle on both sides of the wheel, not just the inside, which greatly helped to keep the wheels in gauge on the slightly wide Joy Line frames. both these unique qualities of Joy Line are hard to pick up from typical auction pictures, but definitely effect the value if not original.
the final locomotive design from Girard, likely influenced by Marx, was the pressed steel model...
(104) clockwork loco w/ battery headlight & torpedo nose, (351) long tender
(106) electric and (105) clockwork locomotives
with the mixture of red or black for boiler and frame along with other varying detail finishes, not to mention being available as either a clockwork or electric model, there are likely more different versions of this Joy Line/ Marx locomotive than any other in the company's history.
1934 was definitely a pivotal year for Marx. with the acquisition of the Girard manufacturing plant and the last of the Joy Line inventory being sold off, Marx could finally get down to business and start putting his own unique signature on the toy train market.
tjl0824 We've moved on to 7 inch I see! ...
We've moved on to 7 inch I see! ...
i sure hope people feel free to jump anywhere into the ~50 years of Marx history with trains or even backtrack to cover anything interesting. no editors other than yourself in forums, ...yay(?)
speaking of which, i corrected a few ambiguities in the Joy Line post. the only thing about this forum that bothers me is the inability to actually upload a picture. if Comcast decides to pull the same stunt that Cox did and remove user web space, everything i've posted to date will go *poof*.
fun stuff...! cheers...gary
...and to go along with Gary's comment about jumping in anywhere in Marx history, I thought it would be fun to contrast his excellent Joy Line post with the opposite end of the Marx timeline. As Gary mentioned, Marx sold clockwork trains into the 1970's... I received a 526 set for Christmas, 1972:
To be fair, this is NOT the actual set I received in 1972. I still have my original train - and it runs like a champ - but I played with it very, very hard and it shows it. So, I bought this much nicer set that is still in the original box with key, instruction sheet and packing slip just for nostalgia! As a side note, the price tag is still on the box - it retailed for $4.95.
The clockwork locomotive in the last years of Marx was the not-so-pretty 401. Like most of Marx, there are variations to be collected, and I have yet to get them all. This is the run of the mill black windup:
It is not unusual to find these with various parts broken from the bodies... the cab roofs and pilots were especially prone to breakage when dropped.
Besides the basic black 401 windup, there are gray 401 windups, too:
It may be a bit difficult to see the difference in color from the pictures, but it is readily apparent when they are side-by-side.
In additon to the regular windup 401's that just featured a motor with a bell, there is also a rare version of the 401 that has the "Mother's Nightmare" mechanical puffer bulb - the windup motor has a flap that pumps a rubber bulb attached inside the shell to the smokestack. It would puff baking soda out the stack as it ran, making a nice mess for mom to clean up! I don't have an example of the 401 puffer, but I do have a 400 with the puffer bulb that I will post later.
Also, 401's were sold that were powered by two onboard "D" cell batteries:
Note the lack of siderods, which seems to be typical of 401 battery engines. However, the giveaway for a Marx onboard battery locomotive is the switch on the top - it moves side to side instead of front to back like a clockwork. Also, the lever is made out of a fiber or bakelight type material, while a clockwork lever is metal.
Back to the clockwork 401 - if you remember the previous post about the Green CV, I showed the underside which had a cover over the mechanism. That cover was quickly discontinued, and no further Marx windups had a cover UNTIL the very last. The gray 401 has a cover over the underside of the mechanism, while the rest of my mechanical 401's (yes, I have several... it's a sickness) do not:
As you can see, the upper gray 401 has the cover, the lower black 401 does not. Unlike the CV's motor cover - which was easily removeable - the 401's cover is crimped into place and is more difficult to remove. I imagine that this was part of the 1972 safety act that was mentioned before... and although I was a curious child who tended to explore the moving parts of my toys, I don't remember ever getting injured by my Marx 401's open mechanism...
How did the Consumer Product Safety Act put an end to wind-up trains???
AF1963 How did the Consumer Product Safety Act put an end to wind-up trains???
I wouldn't say that the CPSA of 1972 actually put an end to wind-up trains; rather, it put an end to selling Marx's version of the wind-up train set such as my 526. It is my understanding (from secondhand info, not primary research) that in particular, the 6" tin did not meet the new safety requirements, perhaps due to the somewhat sharp corners, wheelsets that were easy to remove and the resulting loose wire axle that could be easily swallowed by a child. Obviously, exposed gearing on the underside of the older 401's would not be allowed, either. Perhaps the Marx removeable key was a safety problem, too. At any rate, Marx did not survive as Marx for very many years after 1972 anyway. Louis Marx was getting up in years, and sold the company in the mid-1970's. However, other windup toys continued to be around after 1972, so I don't think we can say that the act put an end to windup trains - rather, the Marx tinplate trainset, remarkably similar to what was available in the 1930's, would not meet the new requirements and so it ceased to be sold. Marx had been producing a line of plastic cars for many years already, and these continued to be sold after 1972 - I'm pretty sure that I received my Meteor battery operated Marx train set (with plastic cars) in 1974, very close to the end of Marx.
At least that is my limited understanding of the issue, and would gladly welcome input from those more knowledgeable of the Act's impact on Marx trains. I'm always ready to learn something new!
i've read through CFR Part 1500.18 - "Banned toys and other banned articles intended for use by children", and while there is no specific paragraph pointing a finger at Marx clockwork motors, there is enough there (spinning, sharp edges, easily dislodged parts, etc) that when grouped, presented a dilemma to the toy manufacturer who probably didn't want to alienate parents.
i've got to think that James guess is correct and his early 1970's set shows what was probably Marx last attempt to satisfy critics by enclosing the motor, but to speculate further, i've got to think there were other extenuating circumstances involved in their decision. by the early 1970's technology finally was presenting an argument with the price of fractional horsepower motors dropping to the point where clockwork mechanisms as mechanical motion drives didn't really make economical sense anymore.
add to this the general dark ages of toy trains starting with the demise of Flyer in 1966 and MPC Lionel starting in 1970. it's surprising anyone lasted much longer.
I have mostly American Flyer but started getting Marx trains about a year ago and really like them. I've got several of the 6" tin sets and that is what was under the Christmas tree this past year. The tin plate has a special appeal, and I do not think a Marx train will ever not work with a little cleaning and oil.
Jim
one of the most desirable niches of Marx collecting has to be their prewar military sets and about a decade ago i got to join that club with the chance to pick up one of the largest sets made; the same 12 unit train advertised here...
1938 Toyland catalog (Phillip Morris Co.)
headed by a special weighted version of the #500 Army Supply Train locomotive, it included just about every olive drab car in the Marx arsenal.
#500 Army Supply Train locomotive & tender
fitted with the standard single reduction motor, in order to pull such a load, Marx added weights fore and aft in this version of the 2-4-2 loco. a look into the cab of one of these models should be enough to ID this uncommon version. the 500 tender also came with a green vs the black painted rear deck. the unweighted versions of the #500 locomotive can also be found as 0-4-0 wheel arrangements.
Olive Drab CV w/ #952 Army Supply Train wedge tender
a few other locomotives can be found in the Marx prewar military sets, perhaps the most desirable being the OD Commodore Vanderbilt coupled to the OD version of the (951) wedge tender.
#897 clockwork and electric OD locomotives
but my favorites have to be the lithographed 897 locomotives made as both a clockwork (with reversing motor) and electric motor version with headlight.
likely one of the major attractions of the military sets in general was the added play value of most of the cars which featured detachable loads and functional armaments.
(572D) Flat w/ olive drab truck and (572A) Flat w/ red airplane loads
perhaps one of the reasons i picked up the initial set at a bargain price was that all three vehicle flats came without loads which is a common occurrence. since then i have managed to track down those pieces with the last one, the OD truck, coming just a few months ago. not bad... only ~10 years to finally complete this set, yet the truck should have a small canopy. originally made from cardboard, this detail is quite rare to find intact. the small Marx plane also came in a decaled canopy model shown, but the portal window version is correct for the military plane load.
(572ST) flats with #5 and unnumbered litho tanks
the third type of mil flat included a working clockwork tank with two types of tank flat cars offered in sets. the unnumbered tank (right) is the one more commonly found in sets and was also finished in a solid OD version. though both are prized by collectors, the less common #5 tank flat is probably the more desirable of the two and unlike the lithographed unnumbered tank that could appear correctly in slightly different liveries (finding the front guns and/ or dome in different colors than shown here), the pictured #5 tank (WITHOUT the flipping mechanism found in other versions of this Marx tank) is generally considered to be the only correct tank load for this flat.
unloaded tank flats & underside tank views
the #5 tank flat car also has a special one piece attachment bracket found on no other Marx 6" car held down by tabs punched out of the frame, another unique feature found only on the #5 tank flat. the underside view of the unnumbered tank shows the torsion spring drive similar to the Joyline (#350 loco) mechanism mentioned earlier in this string. the large wheel up front was spun against a small piece of lighter flint to produce sparks simulating the front guns firing as it moved. found in both versions, i've yet to find an easy way to change the flint in the #5 tank.
(561M) Searchlight Car
the working searchlight cars were basically an OD version of the "civilian" red livery car. the handle is the only variable on this one, seen in red, black or olive drab colors.
(561M) dummy Searchlight Car
however, for inclusion in clockwork sets and also available as a separate sale item on an eight wheel frame, the unpowered (dummy) searchlight cars were equipped with a mirror instead of a lens.
(561G) Siege Gun
but probably the biggest draw for kids to the military sets were the working guns. largest in the inventory was the cannon or Siege Gun flat. able to rotate on its base, a spring loaded handle provided the energy to launch small wooden shells.
(572) Field Gun (left) & (572AA) Anti-Aircraft Gun
lethal weapon #2 came in the form of the (572AA) Anti-Aircraft Gun. the only major OD piece not found in the 12 unit set, this one fired a smaller 'shell'. the (572) field gun did not fire a projectile, but was equipped with a handle that turned a small ratchet wheel to at least give it that rat-a-tat-tat sound.
(572MG) Machine Gun car in 8-wheel and 4-wheel versions
a similar handle was mounted on the popular Machine Gun car, though two distinctly different mechanisms (as well as sounds) can be found on this one. look for the different handle positions (fore or aft) to distinguish between the two.
though all of the prewar 6" tin army cars were offered as 4 wheel types in electric sets, not all were produced for clockwork sets (with sliding tab/ slot couplers) or as 8-wheel versions which were only offered as separate sale items and not included in any known sets.
(552M) Ordnance Dept. Gondola
providing a mobile ammo supply, the Ordnance Gondola came as empty, with an assortment (8 AA + 8 canon shells) or fully loaded (30 canon shells). the 12 unit train complete with the fully loaded gondola was likely the reason the AA gun was not included in that set. for the nit-pickers, yes, there are only 27 shells in the gondola shown, ...unfortunately it's well past the era when ammo could be purchased OTC at toy stores.
one can never be 100% sure when not being the original owner, but i am almost certain the shells shown in the fully loaded gondola are original while i believe both variety shells in the 8+8 gondola to be reproduction. both shells and the cardboard insert are currently available as reproduction parts.
(557M) Radio Car
the first of two passenger type military cars was the Radio Car. offered in three different versions, with complete antenna array, with only the long antennas and with plain roof, this was also one of the few cars (no antenna version only) which was made on a sliding tab coupler frame for clockwork sets the other two being the dummy searchlight car already shown and an AA gun car (...still looking for that one myself).
(558M) Official Car
bringing up the rear and riding in style in the military version of the lighted, open platform observation, army personnel can be seen in the windows of these unique passenger litho'ed cars. as mentioned in a previous post, Marx color quality control also came into play with the military cars. side-by-side, it's easy to pick up the more OD or slightly more green livery that can regularly be seen in original paint examples.
Marx-bashed Sinclair-OD frame tank car
of course if you feel as i do, always looking to stretch out a consist, as i said earlier, it's easy to make up a car that never existed out of the factory. though, what else is going to fuel those gas guzzling tanks?
perhaps the hardest to classify O gauge train car ever made by Marx was the 2572 Ramp Car so i thought i'd post this one separately.
pictured on the box as having automatic (fork) couplers...
(2572) Automatic Unloader - Ramp Car w/ Critter tank
the actual car, though riding on scale (B) trucks, came only with fixed tab/ slot couplers. with the ramp positioned at the end a siding as pictured on the box cover, the car is activated when the pin mechanism just above the coupler contacts the ramp which will tilt the car platform up allowing the load to roll off.
it was slightly longer than (though able to couple to) 6" tin, not quite the length of a 7" car and with Olive Drab as it's only color option, having the scale wheels set it apart from the other military pieces, this was truly an odd piece in any set, yet highly valued by collectors. ...not the least of that reason being the two valid loads it could carry.
shown above as the military load version, the small tank is known to Marx collectors as the "Critter". i rarely like to mention dollar values, but in auction, i've seen sets and even individual pieces containing this small metal tank with it's simple wood turret easily exceed three figures. collector alert, ...there are repro (cast resin) Critters available.
(2572) Automatic Unloader - Ramp Car w/ Deluxe Delivery truck & trailers
in non-military sets, the correct and also very prized load are the Deluxe Delivery trailers typically found as a pair with the litho version of a standard red, 4:" Marx truck.
...so where are the Marx plastic collectors hiding?
overlandflyer ...so where are the Marx plastic collectors hiding?
I was wondering the same myself! Maybe the "Marx Tinplate Trains" title is scaring them away? I have a few sets plus some loose cars, and I like the deluxe cars the most, but I'll occasionally run across a $20 4-wheel plastic set that I can't refuse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6hIBmJmz14
The Big Rail set in the video is actually the set that got me started on Marx a little while back. Who else has some good plastic stuff to share?
balidas Love those Disney windups. ....
Love those Disney windups. ....
at times feeling a little envious of N-scalers being able to carry around their entire collection in one box, years ago i started to track down some small scale tin and Marx certainly helped me out; ...even with a few more Disney windups.
Marx-Disney lithographed channel track train
Donald is both engineer and fireman in this Disney character litho'ed version of the #376 channel track loco. along with the rest of the cars in this set, opposite side graphics are mirror images. only one gondola was included, but the two pictured show the only car style i have seen with a color variation.
being sold mostly over the counter at department stores and considered more of a train toy than a toy train, it's difficult to find exact information that would date these sets, but i would have to think it was around the same time Marx released the O gauge Mickey Mouse Meteor train. José Carioca is the youngest character (1943) to appear on either set and that information itself would narrow it down to the postwar era.
and as much as this small train attracts Disneyanites, the base seems to be even more of a draw for its rich graphics.
Disney channel track base
featuring characters from at least four early classic films who rarely gather for such a group pose, this piece always seems to attract more Disney fans than Marx collectors. it took quite some time to find one at a price that didn't make me cringe.
fortunately at the same time i caught the W.D. gang sleeping, i also nabbed another, more than likely later, Marx-Disney collaboration.
Donald and Mickey handcar/ channel track base
but rather than the channel track train, this base came with one of the smallest handcars Marx ever offered.
Donald and Mickey handcars - flanged wheel (l) and non-flanged wheel (r) versions
shown here with the O gauge flanged wheel version that was offered separately with a small circle of clockwork, 2-rail track; the version on the right is the correct windup handcar for the litho base. unfortunately Donald is sitting a bit low on that one awaiting repair after a transport mishap. ...i hate it when that happens!
Greenberg lists an electric version of this handcar and if anyone has ever seen an example, i sure would like to hear about it.
well, that's it for my Disney/ Marx, but a little more channel track when i get the time.
overlandflyer ... a little more channel track when i get the time.
... a little more channel track when i get the time.
i'll begin by saying that any dates given here, and there will definitely be very few, have very little evidence (eg: catalogs, 3rd party catalog ads) to back them up. aside from the early electric channel track train with most references pointing to the late 1930's, i would say as a best guess that all other channel track trains were likely produced in the 1950's and 60's. certainly anything with a plastic part would likely date to after 1953/54 when plastics first started to be used widely in the toy industry.
in the late 30's Marx took their electric Speedway (race car) set, replaced the over-under figure-8 track with a simple oval and designed a new locomotive shell to give birth to the New York Central #5151 streamlined locomotive.
Marx electric channel track train - NYC #5151 loco & tender, #557 caboose & locomotive chassis w/ shell removed
designed not only with a reversing a/c motor, the internal gearing extended to a grit wheel and flint holder up front and under the stack cutout to produce the well known Marx *sparkling* effect.
Marx electric channel track trains
two different consists were offered with the same #5151 locomotive and tender as the motive power. passenger sets included 3-4 #5153 NYC Utopia coaches with a #5159 observation car; freight sets included the unnumbered Merchants Dispatch car, #9712 Comfort Coal Co (Erie) hopper & the #557 NYC caboose. these being the only cars produced, the largest freight set merely doubled up on the hopper and reefer. except for the hopper, all other cars, passenger and freight, were produced with a single die shape; a well known Marx cost cutting practice.
unfortunately the track i picked up with one of these sets is in less than usable condition and in storage, but when i run across it again, i'll try to pick out a good piece or two to photograph. i would have to say a boxed set with operational condition track could be an extremely rare find.
the rest of the channel track trains i have are all windup.
Marx clockwork channel track train
likely packaged as a box within a box, the Marline freight should look familiar as the non-Disney version of the same train; this round appearing as #376 Pennsylvania torpedo-style streamlined locomotive, #3463 "Trainblazer" tender, #9049 GN boxcar, #1914 Virginian gondola and unnumbered (though sometimes mis-ID'ed as #27000 which is a weight marking) Marline caboose.
Marx channel track base
though still presenting a nice lithographed base, compared to the Disney version, the Marline base was far less exciting. whether the Marline train existed previous to the Disney set or was changed when the licensing ran out, is a question i would like to get an answer to. definitely produced after the Disney set, another use was found when packaged with the follow-on plastic version train.
#2065 Twin Train Set
this set featured a double track oval and contained both the Marline metal windup...
#5400 Pennsylvania channel track freight train
...along with a clockwork plastic freight train. through observation, i have see just about all five of these pieces in all four different colors, but in any one particular set, there are generally a mixture of at least 3 and typically all 4 colors. again, any information about known manufacture dates would be appreciated.
another packaging of the plastic train only was this 'Made in Canada" version.
Marx (Canada) channel track train set
containing both the plastic train (all pieces marked "Made in USA") and a single lane plastic track oval (all pieces marked "Made in USA"), perhaps the box was made in Toronto?
Louis Marx & Co., (Australia) channel track train
despite the cover art, the Aussie version included the same plastic train with two small differences. the Made in USA was carved out of the mold and the wheel sets are white rather than black. this box only contained the train so i have no idea if it was sold as part of a set or as a separate sale 'floor train'.
the only other Marx general purpose channel track train i am aware of was the miniature M10000.
Clockwork, channel track M10000
also made as a unpowered push toy, i have seen the small box this came in, but have no idea if it was sold in conjunction with a track or base. again, forum reader input would be appreciated.
a few other special purpose miniature trains were produced by Marx. one of the most interesting to see operate was the Shuttlin' Choo-Choo
comprised of only a single, non-coupled loco and boxcar...
Marx Shuttlin' Choo-Choo set
the two passive switches on the base direct the engine through a repeating pattern of shifting (shuttlin') the "Automatic Line" freight car from side to side.
the final piece i have is described in Greenburg as a Hiawatha-type general purpose locomotive.
Scenic Mountain Express train
though i believe i have seen a slightly different version, this particular small two piece set is usually associated with the roller-coaster-type track sections known as the Scenic Mountain Express. to help it around this extreme graded track, the miniature clockwork mechanism includes an ingenious center cog wheel to assist on the uphill grades.
and if i could just wrap this post up with a slightly off topic plug (which i hope will be allowed)...
Marx Speedway race cars
i try not to get distracted by other Marx toys, but the sucker i am, i just can't seem to stay away from the Speedway race car sets i come across while searching for channel track trains. not only are the tiny cars (all with slightly different 'appliances') another Marx litho attraction, but the under-over figure-8 track (in at least 3 known patterns) is also a litho work of art in my opinion.
since this group picture i have managed to pick up the #5 car "Comet", but i'm still looking for the last one (i believe there were only 6 numbers in this style), the #2 car, "Arrow". if anyone knows the whereabouts of one that might be available (in similar condition to the ones above), i sure would like to hear about it (via conversation contact). i have extra #6 and #3 cars for trade.
we now return you back to O gauge.
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