probably the best information i can give anyone who wants to collect Marx tin is the old adage of "Buyer Beware". Marx 6in tin cars are likely one of the easiest to manipulate the rearranging of parts. almost all frames and car bodies have the exact same 6-tab construction and many Marx pieces that never existed out of the factory can be constructed with the only tool needed being a rugged fingernail. even the Greenberg text contains a number of these hybrids.
with Marx locomotives, the same practice is also seen. almost all Marx motors follow the same form-fit even between clockwork and electric versions.
...gary
Trevor, Glad you started this thread! My taste in Marx runs toward the windups and 6" tin. I'll share some items from my limited collection in the future, but for now I would like to post a link for anybody that likes Marx 6" tin:
http://www.toyandtrainguides.com/marxtin.htm
The site itself is an excellent reference for all things Marx, and the CD is a "must-have" if you are interested in 6" tin.
Just for fun, here is a well-worn example of the Marx Commodore Vanderbilt, a reversing clockwork version that was probably built sometime in the 1939-1941 time period (single dome body was introduced around '39, reversing mechanical motor was last sold in the CV in '41). It has a #551 6" Coffin Tender:
Let's see some more Marx trains!
- James
Gary- Are all those boxcars yours? I noticed that blue CN&W car has an off-centered door, which proves that almost nothing was wasted as long as it still served it's purpose.
James- I look forward to seeing what you have! 6 inch is my main interest, although I don't a single wind-up engine yet.
My camera isn't co-operating with me, so I'll have to wait to post pictures.
Trevor
tjl0824 Gary- Are all those boxcars yours? I noticed that blue CN&W car has an off-centered door, which proves that almost nothing was wasted as long as it still served it's purpose.
yes, i'm afraid that's what happens when you've been at it for a few decades. since those portraits, i've actually added about 4 more. yes, errors in the litho registration do happen, though that door was a rather extreme case. typically most collectors regard litho registration errors as undesirable pieces, though.
with later multicolor boxcars, the colors remain constant (sort of) but a variety of car numbers (usually 16) were produced.
as you can see by this proof sheet showing 15 different NYC Pacemaker boxcars, Marx had very little QC regarding color formulas. none of these cars has faded gray paint; the shades ranged from very light to moderately dark.
cheers...gary
This site has alot of good information, but you must pay to see all of it, I think it is a CD that you buy.
I have a later Marx set from about 1950, the bigger 7" car Nickel Plate Road set, all the cars are well worn track is shot and no box, but it is the set my Grandfather bought for my dad when he was a kid....its priceless....and after I replaced a bad gear it still runs great! I love Tin Plate, Great thread!
-Jason
rack776 This site has alot of good information, but you must pay to see all of it, I think it is a CD that you buy. http://www.toyandtrainguides.com/marxtin.htm
Walt's Marxtin site is mostly filled with the unusual and rare Marx cars and sets; he has since produced the Definitive Guide CD which is a much more valuable aid to collecting 6" Marx tin (and i also think he has a Marx Plastic guide out now, too). this CD lists & pictures most known Marx pieces also giving each car a common, scarce or rare rating. it is well worth the money for information it contains. last i looked the out of print Greenberg Marx Volume I, the only other popular reference for 6" tin, sells in the $100+ range and contains numerous known errors.
I'll second Gary's comments on Walt's CD; it has an amazing amount of information about Marx 6" tin and is worth every penny. It basically functions like Walt's website, and allows the user to look up cars by type or number. If you are interested in 6" tin, you will like the CD!
As I stated before, I like the windups - or Mechanicals in Marx lingo - and 6" tin. I prefer items that are perhaps a bit rough; not only are they economical to buy, but it gives me the feeling that I have someone's treasured toy that gave them many hours of enjoyment. A plus is that I can run them without any fear of damaging a pristine piece in a mishap. With that in mind, let's look at a locomotive!
This is a Marx Mechanical #232, the Commodore Vanderbilt:
This green CV is an early pre-war locomotive. Marx was a bit of a late-comer to model trains, taking over Joy Line and beginning production in 1934. Although some reference books list Mechanical CV's as dating to 1934, the earliest period advertisement for a 232 that I have seen is 1935 (Montgomery Wards 1935 Catalog p. 18-19)... earlier advertisements still advertise Joy Line clockworks. The first Marx trains used the old Joy Line coupler, so the first 232 had what is referred to as a swing-peg coupler that mated with the Joy Line couplers:
The first CV had other distinctive features besides the swing-peg coupler. The governor was located behind one of the front wheels - this was moved to inside the motor in '36. Some have a cover over the bottom of the motor, but this feature was discontinued by the second year, also:
The windup motor featured a small grinding wheel with a flint that threw sparks out the stack, as well as a bell that dinged as the locomotive ran down the track. The sparker was used for many years, up to the advent of plastic shell Marx locomotives, and the bell was retained to the end of Marx production. A screw in key was used for the first few years of Marx production, as well as 10 spoke diecast drivers. The first CV's were available in Black, Red, Green and Silver. The early headlight bezel pointed up at an angle, then an angled bezel was used so it was level, and finally the body was recessed in 1936 so the original type of bezel would sit level.
There are a myriad of other details and variations in the mechanical CV's, but I think I've rambled on long enough for this post!
I have been collecting Marx tinplate trains for a few years. I don't have a permanent layout so I only set them up at Christmas around the tree.
Here are videos with lots of Marx trains running under the tree from 2008
http://youtu.be/9ph4YNVsHLE
Christmas 2009
http://youtu.be/MkITpA7WZ8U
Christmas 2010
http://youtu.be/RQgr3AP-YlQ
Christmas 2011
http://youtu.be/i4ap40OKATE
I am a big fan of Marx windup trains so here are 2 videos of my MARX WINDUPS.
http://youtu.be/geJeI4_LwYc
http://youtu.be/ZgSmewtc9AA
For a couple of examples of Marx variety, here are a two different sets that have sentimental value to me...
First up is a 25224 set:
This electric set has a Marx 999 locomotive and 3/16" scale cars. The Pennsylvania boxcar is not original to the set, it is a later addition. This train was given to my Dad for Christmas in 1954. That is the original box and instructions with the set. It also came with a bridge, 2 remote control switches, operating semaphore and enough track for a loop with passing siding and uncoupler track. The set and accessories would have orginally come packed inside a bigger cardboard box, but it did not survive Dad's childhood.
Next up is one of my sets from when I was a kid, a #2915 Meteor:
I believe I got this set in 1974. It has a controller that is powered by a 6 volt lantern battery and connects to the track with a lockon just like the AC powered trains. The cars are 4 wheel plastic, with fake trucks hiding the fact that there are just two axles per car. I still have the box, although it is in poor condition.
More to come...
i'm not sure if i have a favorite Marx set, but this one has got to be in the top 5...
similar to this Montgomery Wards set (1938), but without the C&S reefer...
clockwork set #550
the clockwork CP #3000 (with correct sparkling motor) would have been a nice find in itself, but this set has two other slightly hidden treasures...
the (551) NYC rivet tender is fairly common unless it includes the Marx logo which was apparently dropped early on in its long production run.
and with their alternate play value, finding any Marx flat car w/ the original load is usually a bonus. but of all the (562) auto flats, the sliding tab & slot coupler version is probably the rarest. with the completeness and consistent condition of this set, there is no doubt in my mind this is original Marx, but as i mentioned previously, you can probably see how easy this piece might be to fake.
sliding couplers were used with clockwork locomotives to give the engine a gradually increased load as it took off. leading a fixed coupler consist, a clockwork loco will tend to spin its wheels before gaining traction.
Wow Gary, that set is a treasure! Thanks for sharing the pictures. The clockwork CP and the clockwork 666 are at the top of my wish list...
Here's a Marx set I bought two years ago. It's set 56844, and it is probably the highest end Marx set I've got. It's an 1829 smoking and chugging engine with quite a few nice plastic cars. It has a 100 watt transformer and I think it came with wide radius track.
I remember it was two years ago because this picture is of it running on the modular club layout at the antique tractor show (which is coming up in 2 weeks). I also remember that the smokestack has a reddish orange plastic piece in it that more than one of us were concerned with as it gives off a nice "something's burning" glow from the headlight.
One of these days I'll get around to repairing or replacing the smoke unit on it.
J White
Here are a couple more variations of the windup Commodore Vanderbilt:
These CV's are the two oldest I have other than the green swing-peg I posted earlier. The older is on the left; the one on the right slightly newer. How can we tell? Glad you asked!
Looking at the top, you can see there is a slight difference in the shape of the domes. On the left, is the earlier, sharper version; on the right is the later, blunter version. This happened sometime in the 1937-38 time frame, meaning that the engine on the left has to date around '36 or '37, the one on the right around '37-'38. Note that both of these locos still have screw-in keys, but the one on the left is a reproduction key, the one on the right is original.
Here is a view of the underside... note that compared to the green swing-peg CV, the governor is now located in the motor instead of behind the wheel, we now have the Marx tab-and-slot coupler instead of the swing-peg for the older Joy-Line couplers, and there isn't any cover over the bottom of the mechanism. The next change Marx made was the switch from the screw-in key to the easily removeable square key... but I'm getting ahead of myself. More CV variations to come!
I'm enjoying seeing everyone's Marx trains... neat thread.
Wow, this thread took off quicker than I expected.
Since everyone is showing off sets, here's my favorite
I actually read about this set on Walt's Marxtin site a while ago, but I could never find one for sale. When I did, it was listed on Ebay with a non-descriptive title, and I won it (dirt cheap too). The trains and box are near mint, but the transformer is missing. This is my number one favorite set, and I don't think I'd ever sell it.
Just out of curiosity, is this you James?: http://www.youtube.com/user/NorthviewRailroader If it isn't, I must of found an exact copy of you.
Trevor, you are right, I'm NorthviewRailroader on YouTube... I suppose there aren't very many people who are into Marx clockworks and 12" gauge live steam! That is a nice set, I'm sure you will find the correct transformer for a reasonable price. The green and cream is my favorite M10005 paint scheme, by the way. I don't have any Marx clockwork diesels (yet), but I'm always on the lookout!
Good evening all,
I do not have much to contribute, but a Marx set got me into O-27. It was one of the 7 inch sets that was made to counter Unique's line of similar cars. It had the 994 NKP engine and tender, the Wabash high wall gondola, NYC box car, and NKP 7 inch caboose with hook couplers. It used to run and probably needs some TLC to fire it up again. I will tell more about it later. Good thread. I hope it continues and perhaps CTT will do some more Marx articles in the future.
Keep on training,
Mike C. from Indiana
JamesP ... I suppose there aren't very many people who are into Marx clockworks and 12" gauge live steam!
... I suppose there aren't very many people who are into Marx clockworks and 12" gauge live steam!
you're right, James, ...i'm only up to 7½" gauge! :)
great CV information. to supplement your photos, here is another look at the Marx wheel-mounted governor used early on, ...this one from an M10000.
early M10000 clockwork motor w/ wheel-mounted governor
i'm sure the subject of traditional Marx with electric motors operating on contemporary track (using guard rails through switches and crossovers) will come up before long, but these early clockwork drives also posed the same running problem.
overlandflyer JamesP: ... I suppose there aren't very many people who are into Marx clockworks and 12" gauge live steam! you're right, James, ...i'm only up to 7½" gauge! :)
JamesP: ... I suppose there aren't very many people who are into Marx clockworks and 12" gauge live steam!
Gary, if I am remembering right, aren't you are building a 7.5" gauge steamer? I think that puts us firmly in the same camp! Anyway, thanks for posting the M10000 motor pictures - it is much easier to see the housing for the wheel governor with the motor out of the body. How about a picture of the entire "snake"?
For anyone that has never dealt with a wheel governed Marx clockwork, it is readily apparent why Marx quickly changed to the one inside the motor... the wheel governors don't work very good! The locomotives tend to run too fast, flying off in the curves; this can be mitigated to an extent by coupling up a longer train and/or not winding the motor as tight, but it still doesn't fix the basic issue. The newer motors with the internal governor have gears that spin the gov faster than the drive axle, making it much more effective at keeping the speed in check. Also, as Gary mentioned, the wheel governors can have problems running through switches with guardrails, just like the Marx "fat wheel" single reduction electric motors... but I'll defer to those who know more about the electrics to post pictures and explanations of that.
I noticed that the 7" tin has been mentioned twice, but no pictures yet... Jason and Mike, I would love to see photos of what you have. I only have 3 pieces of 7" tin, just enough to make a train for my lone 994 reversing clockwork.
JamesP Gary, if I am remembering right, aren't you are building a 7.5" gauge steamer? ..
Gary, if I am remembering right, aren't you are building a 7.5" gauge steamer? ..
i will admit i'm acting more as the general contractor, but yes, i'm working on getting a Jim Kreider design, 1½" scale Berkshire on the rails optimistically by late 2013. just passed the first major milestone of running on air with quite a bit of work already done on the boiler, so thing are progressing well.
as an operator, i might consider us both as enthusiastic, but i've seen your "project" locomotives, James, and hands down you win on that basis. ....of course if i ever get a backyard, watch out!
one project i keep pushing back is getting a large photo booth constructed so i can get a good solid background for some complete train shots, but it seems like whenever i get a space cleared out, some other project creeps into the 'picture' and claims the real estate. i will try to get a picture of at least the components to that M10000. you can probably tell by the condition of the motor that the train is in fantastic condition.
for now, how about a few boxtops, the first being that early M10000...
early M10000 box - red clockwork set
this is one of my favorite Marx graphics taking advantage of both the newly introduced M10000 alongside a Commodore Vanderbilt. with just a touch of artistic license. certainly a bit more detailed than the followup...
M10005 set box - green/ cream clockwork set
which contained a later, but still prewar, M10005 clockwork set. i wonder who retired from their art department? unfortunately, postwar saw a lot less graphic detail on Marx box tops, though once in a while, a classic would pop-up.
7350 Cape Canaveral Missile Express Train
i have very little plastic Marx, but growing up at the start of the space age, this set appealed to me. if someone doesn't beat me to the punch, i'll photo and post pictures of the train soon. i have the 4-wheel, diesel powered version, but the set also came with 8-wheel cars and alternately with a standard #490 locomotive coupled to a special "Missile Express" red tender.
some early Marx boxes did take a dual role resembling a factory or warehouse that could be placed right on the layout, but that's a story for another time.
Gary, congratulations on getting the Berk chassis running on air... it is certainly a major milestone, and I always breathe a sigh of relief at that point! It takes a lot of effort & resources just to see the drivers make the first revolution by themselves.
Neat boxes, Marx had some wonderful artwork in the early years. I don't have many boxes in my collection, so I always enjoy seeing pictures of them.
Now to continue on with Clockwork CV's - I hope all of you Marx fans find this somewhat interesting, I'll try to keep this as brief as possible...
Sometime in 1938 or '39, Marx simplified the body for the clockwork Commodore Vanderbilts. Basically, they went from two domes to just one and left off the handrails. This is a bit more involved than just leaving stuff off an existing locomotive; it used a different stamping for the CV body that doesn't have the mounting holes for the handrails or 2nd dome. The first artwork I have seen depicting the plain body is in the 1939 Ward's catalog on p. 73. The change to the plain body happened at or about the same time as the change from 10 spoke diecast drivers to the 7 spoke stamped drivers. As a side note, Marx changed from the screw-in key to the square key before going to the plain body CV. At any rate, here are three types of pre-war windup CV's with the plain body:
On the left is the bottom of the line mechanical CV w/ ringing bell & sparking motor, next is a plain body w/ reversing windup motor, and finally on the right is a whistling windup CV. Reversing windup CV's were available from 1936 to 1940; I haven't seen any evidence that they were produced after '40, although Marx made other reversing clockwork locomotives postwar. The only advertisement for a windup whistling CV I have seen is in the 1942 Sears Christmas catalog p. 86. Marx offered clockwork whistling Mercury's postwar, but they use a slightly different mechanism.
There are a couple of details to point out between the regular and reversing clockwork CV's:
The regular CV on the left has an open stack so the sparks can shoot out, while the reversing CV on the right has a closed stack. Earlier reversers may have used the open stack; the closed stack isn't depicted in period advertising until '40. Also, the regular CV's brake lever is straight, while the reversing CV's brake lever is bent over - I assume the bent lever makes it easier to shift from forward to reverse.
I'll probably make one more post about the windup postwar CV's later in the week, and that will cover the major mechanical CV variations. While I am obviously preoccupied with the windups, I look forward to seeing & learning more from you guys about the rest of Marx's trains!
On the cover of the magazine, and at the top of the page, it reads "O and S gauge for the operator and collector". So where are the articles for us Marx collectors? I'd love to see a full article about Marx, or even just something in the Collectable Classics section. I've noticed that they have also been recycling pictures from old articles in the Photo Album section of the magazine, so I plan to set up some trains and send in a picture of it.
Aside from 6 inch, I have recently gotten into collecting 3/16 scale. I don't have much, but enough to take a picture of.
I'm sure someone else will top this in an instant though. My favorite part about 3/16 scale is that they are very realistic, and still lithographed tin. Plus, there is only a handful of cars, and very few are hard to come by, so I can say I have a complete collection of it with little money spent.
I have one thing say about single reduction motors: . I have to have a separate layout to run my Marx trains on, because they won't run through the Lionel switches on my Lionel layout. I do have one loop without switches on the Lionel layout, but Marx trains look lost amongst massive Lionel accessories and they disappear when passed by a string of larger O gauge freight cars. Good thing 027 track fits almost anywhere, I set up a small layout on my old kitchen table.
Here's both my layouts in operation
Marx: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcx1CZmLchM&feature=plcp
Lionel: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFZ4-Ks3f7Y&feature=plcp
tjl0824 On the cover of the magazine, and at the top of the page, it reads "O and S gauge for the operator and collector". So where are the articles for us Marx collectors? ...
On the cover of the magazine, and at the top of the page, it reads "O and S gauge for the operator and collector". So where are the articles for us Marx collectors? ...
Trevor, you need to give this string a chance. the prewar Flyer post is up to about 70 pages while this Marx topic is barely getting started. i have a feeling that before long you will pick up more information here than can ever be garnered from a single author article.
3/16" scale Marx is a great niche to collect because as you state, there aren't very many different types and none are exceptionally rare.
Marx B-type truck (left) and D-type truck (right) coupler height comparison.
one thing to watch for if you are collecting these cars is that most were offered with not only the scale B-type truck, but also what is commonly known as 'high' or D-type trucks. they can couple, but the cars mounted on D trucks ride noticeably about ¼" higher.
for a little more variety than just being pulled by the usual #999 and wedge tender, these high truck cars were used in the B&O & SP diesel sets for a better appearance. it is clearly evident that Marx researched their graphics and numbers.
there are a few ways you can get around the single reduction motor problem. most #999s have that motor, but not all...
Marx #999 w/ double reduction motor
this late version of the Marx #999 was not found in 3/16" scale sets, but it will negotiate contemporary track switches and crossovers. this locomotive can be recognized by the distinctive Marx logo on the cab rather than its usual place on the side of the smoke box.
an even more practical solution to your layout problem (the double reduction #999 not being very common) would be to substitute a Marx #333 to head up your scale consist. all #333 motors inherently have the double reduction gearing and look perfectly reasonable in front of the same (951) wedge tender.
and as i mentioned earlier in this post, many Marx motors are virtually interchangeable so for operations, i typically remove and save the original motor but have a number of double reduction spares from later models that i can swap into M10005 bodies to also give them the ability to run on modern track.
fun stuff! cheers...gary
Well, I think I've discovered the first problem with this thread... Trevor and Gary's posts have convinced me that I need to find a Marx 3/16" scale tank car to go with my Dad's set! Ya'll are going to cost me some money, aren't you?
The fact that Marx only had a few different designs for motors is something I definitely take advantage of. Since the 400 and 490 are extremely common engines, and feature the double reduction motors, they can be bought cheap for parts, especially the ones with broken shells. The best use I find for them is putting those motors into wind-up engines with busted coils. That way, both are cheap because no one wants to pay a lot for an engine with a broken shell, or a wind-up engine that doesn't wind up.
When I come across the 3/16 scale cars with D-trucks, it's usually a set headed by Santa Fe 21's or plastic F-7 diesels. In my opinion, cars with D-trucks aren't really 3/16 scale even though the bodies are, because the trucks appear to be half the height of the car. I'm still trying to hunt down a 333 with the gray NYC passenger cars.
overlandflyer an even more practical solution to your layout problem (the double reduction #999 not being very common) would be to substitute a Marx #333 to head up your scale consist. all #333 motors inherently have the double reduction gearing and look perfectly reasonable in front of the same (951) wedge tender.
What's wrong with using the die-cast 3991 tenders that came with the engines?
Excellent Work!
What a great thread! Thanks for starting it and thanks to all of the folks who are contributing to it. What I know about Marx trains would fit in something smaller than a 6" box car. I am looking forward to learning from this thread and from the folks who are posting. I appreciate learning about other manufacturers in this great hobby that we share. I have a feeling I will be asking questions here, and as someone else said I think this thread may cause me to dig into my train fund for something other than American Flyer trains.
Please keep up the good work and keep those photos, stories and videos coming. This thread is one that I check first each time that I log on!
Enjoying the World's Greatest Hobby
Northwoods Flyer
Greg
The Northwoods Flyer Collection
of
American Flyer Trains
"The Toy For the Boy"
tjl0824 What's wrong with using the die-cast 3991 tenders that came with the engines?
i do have an issue with the diecast tender, but with that comment, i was just considering that you already had the (951) tender and the #333 loco is often up for sale as a single piece. the (3991) diecast tender is (at least from the two examples i have) a dog, however. it is an overly heavy tender sitting on just about the worst wheel-axle-journal design of all Marx creations. about ½ of the #333's power is used merely hauling this tender around.
you're right that i should have mentioned the #21 Santa Fe diesels as also pulling D-truck scale cars as well as the #666 loco which, since it sits slightly higher, was often coupled to wedge tenders sporting D-trucks, also.
i'm not much of a Marx plastic fan, and i know there are also various plastic cars with D-trucks, but i'll leave that for comment by someone more knowledgeable.
http://www.wishbookweb.com/
http://www.wishbookweb.com/1952_Sears_Christmas/pages/1952%20Sears%20Christmas%20book%20page270.htm
the Wishbook site is a great Marx reference site!
I wonder why this Marx 3000 steam locomotive is paired with a NYC. The colours and overall appearance are more or less identical to the F-1a and F-2a 4-4-4 "Jubilee" locomotives which were once operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I have a Marx locomotive of an identical shape, and although I got it with the inevitiable NYC tender, I believe it was originally sold as part of a British outfit, as I have seen pictures of it paired with red and yellow UK-outline passenger carriages, which I also have. The locomotive I have, though, came to me at Christmas, 2006, and included the Rock Island gondola shown in overlandflyer's outfit, along with a stock car and, yes, the inevitable red NYC conductor's "van," as we call them here in Canada, on the end of the train.Here are some prototype pictures of the CPR "Jubilees: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/jubilee.htm
IDM1991 I wonder why this Marx 3000 steam locomotive is paired with a NYC. The colours and overall appearance are more or less identical to the F-1a and F-2a 4-4-4 "Jubilee" locomotives which were once operated by the Canadian Pacific Railway. I have a Marx locomotive of an identical shape, and although I got it with the inevitiable NYC tender, I believe it was originally sold as part of a British outfit, as I have seen pictures of it paired with red and yellow UK-outline passenger carriages, which I also have. The locomotive I have, though, came to me at Christmas, 2006, and included the Rock Island gondola shown in overlandflyer's outfit, along with a stock car and, yes, the inevitable red NYC conductor's "van," as we call them here in Canada, on the end of the train.Here are some prototype pictures of the CPR "Jubilees: http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/photos/cpr_steam/jubilee.htm
there were certainly some holes in the Marx product lines. although CP and PA tenders existed, they never made vans (i like that term, especially in the plural form) for those roads. in a similar but reverse situation, in the Marx 3/16" scale, they made both a Reading and an NYC caboose, but never made a Reading tender (though a friend made a quite believable one for me). in the case of freight trains, with the NYC caboose so prevalent, the NYC wedge tender was usually the set choice, especially since the locomotives, albeit dead ringers for the CP types, were essentially unmarked and only numbered, 3000, in a few versions. although at best it only came as a 2-4-2, at least Marx got the # of drive wheels right on their Canadian Pacific types. i also have a feeling Marx chose this locomotive for the ease in building a formed metal model very close to a prototype. with a simple, straight boiler and streamlined shrouding to cover normally detailed areas i think Marx really captured the essence of this locomotive in a simple, beautiful design. and with practically interchangeable parts making various cab, boiler, sideboard, pilot, smokebox, stack and dome variations, there may be more of these types than anyone might care to collect. thanks for the link to those pictures. that truly was a sharp looking class! cheers...gary
I noticed that nothing has come up about prewar 6 inch cars with 8-wheel trucks yet, so since they're my favorite series, I'll bring it up. They came in two ways, either with tab-and-slot couplers, or automatic one-way couplers.
The trucks are shown on the car in the top of the picture, and the unique couplers are demonstrated as well (they are known as "one-way" couplers for obvious reasons). They were most commonly headed by a Canadian Pacific steamer in sets, but other engines such the 897 were used as well. I have only seen cars with automatic couplers in sets, but cars with tab-and-slot couplers may have been sold in sets as well.
I have also never seen a Commodore Vanderbilt with 8-wheel cars in a boxed set, but as the saying goes, "never say never", maybe someone will prove me wrong. I do not have a very complete collection of these cars, so I will leave the task of posting pictures of them to someone else who does (I did, however, include my 3000 in the "intro" picture on page 1)
If you would like to see more of the catalog above, it is found here:
http://marxtinplatetrains.com/marx_paper.htm
aside from a few electric outline locomotives, almost all my motive power is steam EXCEPT for Marx tin. known as the Erie-built, FM types, in the late 1950's Marx produced three roadnames that proved to be very versatile, not to mention extremely colorful.
photographing tinplate is never a certainty for me, so to make sure things turned out well, i only shot the Seaboard livery today, but will follow up shortly with Monon and the beautiful Kansas City Southern models.
#4000 Seaboard diesel
it would be hard to come up with a better example than this Seaboard powered A and dummy unit to show that by this point in their history, Marx was truly the master of litho graphics. at a casual glance, its hard to convince your mind that you're actually looking at a practically smooth metal shape.
Greenberg lists five different versions of the Seaboard diesel, but i have yet to find a large electric motor version.
the small electric motor version is easy to spot as it is mounted with screws located just in front of the SEABOARD roadname.
Small A/C motor
as you can see in this picture, the small motor unfortunately includes a flange-mounted drive gear and as with many large motor Marx locomotives, this one also suffers derailments when run through guard-rail protected switches and crossovers.
#4000 Seaboard diesel w/ clockwork motor
clockwork Seaboard diesels seem to be the most widely seen in sets and with the standard square keyed Marx drive, the middle left side porthole was designed to line up perfectly with the motor. of course, using the same form-fit, if you can ignore the physical differences (key hole and brake slot openings) of the clockwork unit, a standard Marx electric motor also with the low mounting screws, would work just as well in this shell.
#4000 dummy A unit
often coupled to a powered A unit, the 4-wheel dummy A was the most popular set add-in.
(4001) dummy B unit
...but much less often seen in the Seaboard livery, was the (4001) dummy B.
unlike the Monon and KCS passenger sets which included the standard red 6" passenger consist, the Seaboard livery had matching green livery coaches (which i'll get to at a later date), but alternately for freight trains, a colorful 6" Seaboard caboose was available to bring up the rear.
#956 Seaboard Air Lines caboose ...tempted to grab those handrails?
one great benefit of the low cost and general availability of Marx is satisfying the need to experiment at times without too much consequence. taking a drill and file to a C6+ condition dummy A unit, i did a little experimenting with an A-A clockwork powered consist.
custom built powered 'dummy' A unit
purely from observation it seemed as though coupling two clockwork drives in the same consist more than doubles the pulling capacity of a single motor. i have a feeling James might chime in on this matter knowing he has also dabbled in the area of multiple coupled clockwork drives. cheers...gary
As odd as it might sound to use multiple clockwork drives in a train, it does work very good. Like Gary said, using two clockwork motors more than doubles the tractive effort - I chalk this up to the fact that Marx windups are very sensitive to slick spots in the track, since they only pull with one axle. When they are loaded to their limit, it isn't unusual to see them alternately slip and grip, with the train stalling when it slips (naturally). By using multiple clockwork motors, usually one axle will be pulling even when another is slipping, keeping the train moving until the slipping motor regains traction. As exhibit "A", take a look at my 1203 Triplex pulling 29 cars:
watch?v=U96L1YcuI4o
The 1203 was kitbashed from 2 Marx 401 windups, with a third 401 windup motor in the tender. A stock 401 struggles to move 7 cars around the same track, which would only equal 21 cars for the 1203. Granted, the 1203 has a bit of extra weight, but not enough on the drivers to make up an extra 8 cars... and the 1203 would pull more, if I had a bigger loop and enough cars to do it.
Of course, I like to double-head the windup Commodore Vanderbilts, too:
watch?v=KsKg5mv0 nc
Speaking of CV's, let's take a look at a couple of postwar clockwork Vandys. First up is a black postwar CV:
The black drivers and motor sideplates are a postwar giveaway. Until about 1947 or '48, the drivers would have been nickel plated, and the motor sideplates either bare metal or plated. Also, note that this model doesn't have any siderods - a further cost cutting measure on the cheapest of train sets. CVs can be found with or without siderods.
Next up is a Red Flyer from 1947 or '48:
Sears and Wards both sold "Red Flyer" clockwork trainsets in 1947 - '48. A red clockwork CV headed up a train consisting of a red 551 tender, two passenger cars and an observation. In 1948, the set only came with one passenger car instead of two, but still had the observation. I have seen the Red Flyer windups with both the nickel plated drivers (like this one) and black drivers, lending further evidence to the black drivers being introduced either late '47 or '48. Unlike the Red whistling CV sold by Sears pre-war, these CVs came with the normal sparking motor - no whistle.
Just a couple more notes: Marx apparently did not produce trains from 1943 to 1945 due to WWII. I believe that the prewar, bottom of the line CV with the simple body is identical to the CVs produced immediately postwar until the drivers and motor changed from nickel to black. As far as I can tell from period advertisements, the mechanical CV wasn't sold after 1948.
There are other details that I haven't covered about the CVs, but we have pretty much hit the highlights up to now. There are a lot of other Marx mechanical locomotives to cover, but none with as many variations as the CV!
while i was snapping pictures the other evening, i came across a very familiar box...
(#348) Right-O-Way Railroad Signs
a few plastic versions of Marx railroad signs followed later, but this was the only metal set.
is there anyone out there who doesn't have at least one of these sign posts somewhere on their layout or stashed away in an old set box? yup, they're Marx.
fun stuff...gary
to complete my post started with the Seaboard diesel, the other two Marx F-M types were the Monon and Kansas City Southern.
#81 Monon - large motor (gray pilot) and small motor (black pilot) electrics
the Monon and KCS diesels both came as large or small motor electrics.
#54 Kansas City Southern - large (left) and small motor electrics
based only on the one example i have of each, unlike both the Monon or Seaboard small motor version, the KCS model had both a headlight lens in place backed by a bulb & socket attached to the motor mount.
KCS small motor w/ mounted headlight
typical large motor used in F-M models w/ headlight and reverse unit
the large motors all had double reduction gearing which allows these models to run on most trackwork.
(82) Monon 4-wheel dummy B w/ plastic knuckle coupler
both the Monon and KCS also had two types of B units. the 4-wheel version came with the Marx dummy plastic knuckle coupler...
(55) KCS 8-wheel dummy B w/ plastic automatic tilt coupler
and the 8-wheel version with an auto coupler. when included in sets, these B units opened up the possibilities to couple to and pull just about any Marx consist of the day, from 4 wheel tin or plastic to deluxe 8 wheel sets.
#54 KCS 4-wheel dummy A unit
dummy A units were also made in both roadnames.
#81 Monon w/ clockwork drive
unlike the KCS, however, the Monon did come in a clockwork motor version; like the small electric motor, with the distinctive black frame pieces. the large electric motor model of both roadnames is by far the most commonly seen version, though.
#31055 Monon 6" caboose
#5563 KCS 6" caboose
with most prototypes typically painted in boring red or brown, Marx didn't let the tinplate crowd down with these matching livery cabooses, either. unlike the Seaboard roadname, the Monon and KCS each also had a 7" caboose in these same colors to match up with appropriate consists.
Old Commodore Vanderbilt engines are asking to be customized.
dsmith Old Commodore Vanderbilt engines are asking to be customized.
well, i'm not sure old Cornelius would agree with your choice of a slightly competitive mid-west roadname, but to comment on customization in general, there certainly are plenty of Marx restoration or repaint candidates out there; the most amazing part being that 9 out of 10 times the bullet-proof Marx drive is still functional.
however, as James has been discussing in his CV series, there are a few models i might hesitate to touch in any condition (eg: original green or silver (or frankly anything other than black), swing peg coupler versions, etc). perhaps true for anything old, not only trains, ...get a second and third opinion first, before you remove any original finish.
nice job on the model, by the way, ...any coaches? cheers...gary
Very nice, David! Fortunately there are a lot of common, black, beat-up CV's out there for restoration or customization. Here is a great example of a customized CV... a dual CV made from two CV shells welded together. Wish I had thought of it! I would love to make a clockwork version someday:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMkx1Vy5UmE
the Marx 7" line may well have been the oddest niche in the company's history. brought out in haste to compete with 1949's Unique Arts train sets which claimed to be the largest O gauge trains on the market, this line also included the very popular Disney train. Authorized by Walt Disney Productions and only offered in a clockwork form, this one was just for fun.
starting with Mickey on the smokebox front, this colorful set was litho'ed with many Disney characters.
engineer Donald Duck looks to be in control (or maybe just keeping an eye on the nephews?) and on the fIreman's side, Mickey definitely appears distracted by Minnie while Goofy better hang on to the cab roof. the (994) Meteor locomotive with clockwork motor featured the 'sparkling' drive; the cars were all 4-wheel with tab & slot couplers.
keeping the side themes consistent, Mickey and Donald appear again on the tender along with whom i can best guess as Bashful keeping watch from the tender deck.
the #1476 boxcar featured Dumbo, José Carioca & Figaro among others...
while the gondola sported Jiminy Cricket, Pluto, Thumper & four more dwarfs; Happy, Grumpy, Dopey & Doc. unusual for Marx, the Disney set litho was their only complete train to have different graphics on each car side.
bringing up the rear was the #691521 Disney caboose. this one has always had me stumped. i definitely recognize the side with Pinocchio, Daisy Duck & Pluto (acting the typical dog part with head out the window) as well as the roof with Bambi, Flower and possibly Dumbo's friend Timothy Mouse(?), but i've never been able to ID the numbered side characters, ...the bears? ...anyone?
new Marx, Ameritrains, reissued a similar O gauge set, but in a slightly smaller size, in the 90's as an electric motor version.
i thought i'd get around to photographing more 7" Marx, but couldn't track down the B&O set so that'll be another day. i did want to wrap up the Monon and KCS sub-thread so here are those 7" vans.
#3855 - 7" Monon caboose
both came as only 4-wheel versions and i've never seen anything but the plastic knuckle coupler on the Monon caboose which only came as #3855 ...
#966 - 7" Kansas City Southern caboose
...but there were 15 different numbers for the KCS version; 966 through 980. this is an error that has been in the Greenberg Price Guides forever; stating the lowest number in the series to be #969. it also puts this model in line with the similar B&O and NYC versions which both also had 15 numbers. the plastic knuckle coupler seems to be more common on the KCS caboose, but i have seen at least one example with a tab coupler.
Love those Disney windups. I've been trying to get my hands on a set for years.
I love the disney set photos, The cars & Loco look like the ones in my 7" Nickel Plate Road Set,
I'd love to post some photos of it but I do not have any luck keeping my photos in the free photo bucket type accounts (they always seem to dissapear) and I stink at .html code, would anyone like me to email them photos of my Marx set to post on here, is there an easy way to post photos here?
By the way If anyone is interested in a set there has been a guy at the Allentown PA train meet with one of those Disney Sets for that last 3 years, It must be priced high or does not appeal to the highrail crowd arround here. Next show is in November and the vendor is usually near the middle of the big room near the snack bar, any one know who that might be?
rack776 I love the Disney set photos, The cars & Loco look like the ones in my 7" Nickel Plate Road Set, ...
I love the Disney set photos, The cars & Loco look like the ones in my 7" Nickel Plate Road Set, ...
the 994 Meteor locomotive in your set is essentially the same shell used for the Disney model, but various modifications occurred over the years. the 0-4-0 drive was the same as any other Marx loco, but dummy wheels were added to the embossed frame to visually help stretch out the small motor. the 994 came as both electric and clockwork versions. the red painted shell is less common and when coupled to the red Nickel Plate Tender, it becomes one of the most sought after combinations.
Marx #994 locomotive
pictured above is what might be called the deluxe version. most notably, the number '994' actually appears under the cab windows which is rare. other items that may or may not have appeared were the headlight, headlight hood and handrails. also note that this version has separate pieces for the domes whereas the Disney model and some later 994's had the domes pressed into the boiler shell itself.
Marx 994 - 898 comparison
but the whole point of the 994 was size. here it is alongside a companion Marx loco, the (898). at 10¼" coupled to the extra length of a 7" tender, it essentially did its job in that Unique Arts went out of the O gauge train business the following year. by the early 1950's that new-fangled material called plastic was coming into use, however, and the late-comer, sheet metal #994 only saw a few years of production.
Another example of the 994, this one a reversing clockwork:
Again, note that the drivers and motor sideplates are black instead of plated, typical of postwar Marx. Also, note the brake/reverse lever has the tell-tale bend that lets us know at a glance it is a reversing windup motor. As Gary pointed out in his previous post, this version has the domes pressed in as part of the body, as opposed to the seperate domes on the deluxe version.
I don't collect 7" tin; but I did want to have a couple of pieces for my 994 to pull around the layout:
Nothing rare; just a Wabash gondola and Nickel Plate caboose with Slot & Tab couplers. It sure does make a nice looking train on the layout, and the reversing clockwork motor can be fun, too!
In case you missed it, here is my portable Marx windup layout with 6" tinplate cars.
I have found the simple joy in playing with old windup Marx trains. Like many of us who have windup trains, we end up operating them on our electric train layouts. But wouldn't it be great to have a small dedicated windup layout complete with mechanical windup accessories. I don't have room for another layout and windup trains are enjoyed as an occasional diversion for short periods of time, so I came up with the perfect solution to my problem.....a portable case that will easily folds out into a layout on any small table (or on the floor) and will store all the trains and layout accessories. And it can all be compactly stored away when finished. Although I am not finished with the layout, here are photos and video of the basic idea.
http://youtu.be/5XrUaxeDLLs
Awesome Dave!!!!!
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
We've moved on to 7 inch I see! Not much to cover here. Since there were only 4 different freight cars, and a handful of cabooses, there isn't much to collect. However, there is quite a few different numbers for car, allowing a "variation nut" to literally go nuts buying them all.
As soon as I find where I misplaced my camera, I will post pictures of my lone 7 inch set.
since James contributed the clockwork version of the 1950's Meteor locomotive, it might be worth mentioning that, when running wind-ups for the public, i generally get the idea most people think that when electric motors came into existence, clockworks went out the door. but they are usually surprised to hear that clockwork sets persisted into the early 1970's, and even then it actually took an act of congress with the Consumer Product Safety Act (1972) to put an end to yet another traditional childhood pastime.
it was never a matter of technology, but of cost. without a third rail, a transformer (a big chunk of iron then, not like the modern switching supplies of today), and having a less expensive motor; clockwork sets were typically less than half the cost of a similar electric set. of course, as collectables these days, condition far outweighs the original sticker price and just off the top of my head i can think of more clockwork than electrics that are likely near the top of most Marxist's wish lists.
one of those which i was extremely lucky to find at a bargain price, was not even a Marx product. in 1927, The Girard Model Works of Girard, PA started making toy floor trains (later including a small circle of track) selling them over the counter at department stores. in 1928, Louis Marx, already a giant in the toy industry, started selling Girard's 'The Joy Line' trains on commission. it was this relationship with the company concluding in the outright purchase of a depression-hit Model Works in 1934 that usually blurs the line of where collecting Marx really starts. there were surely pieces that were out of production by 1934, but quite a bit of leftover Joy Line stock was sold by Marx those first years.
#350 The Joy Line loco & #351 "Koal Kar" tender
one of the first Joyline pieces was the #350 clockwork loco paired with the #351 "Koal Kar" tender, both sporting very colorful litho detail, but with by far one of the worst spring drives in history. to paraphrase a well-known Marx collector, even if it's poorly formed flanges held the track, it rarely made more than a single loop around a 19" circle and could barely pull even a single add-on car. ads for this loco were seen as late as 1930, but this was surely one of the first pieces to leave the market being replaced by a stronger, but much less charming, cast iron model.
The Joy Line Electric Train Set - (note: 200 5th Ave also being the Marx NYC headquarters)
the next generation locomotive was the first practical power offered that could not only hold the rails, but along with the more commonly seen upgraded clockwork motor version (102), an electric motor locomotive was also offered for the first time by Girard.
(101) Joyline electric locomotive w/ headlight & (351) small tender
and if you're lucky enough to come across a complete electric set, you should also find another desirable piece...
Girard Power House transformer
the colorful Girard Power House enclosed a center tapped transformer with a simple control that essentially gave the operator two speeds (voltages) to choose from, (...likely too slow and not fast enough!). i left some of the original cord & plug in the picture (which i'll never replace) to give you an idea of the scale. i must admit, until i saw one in person, i always thought this was a much larger piece, but if it's really a multistory building, i'd say it is closer to N scale.
the Joy Line freight cars and caboose, following the lead of the #351 "Koal Kar" all had somewhat whimsical names...
#355 "Hobo Rest" Boxcar; #354 "Contractor Dump Car" - (early blue frame versions)
the first Joy Line cars rode on distinctive blue frames and had very light gauge metal tab/ slot couplers.
(356) "Eagle Eye Caboose", (352) "Venice Gondola" & #353 "Everful Tank Car"
later version freight cars kept the same upper bodies but the frames and couplers changed to a slightly heavier gauge with a longer wheelbase design in black. as with the boxcar roof and doors, solid car pieces such as the caboose roof and tank car dome and ends can be found in colors not pictured here.
similarly, the earliest Joy Line passenger cars sat on the early blue frame with a distinctively different yellow roof than the more common roof adopted when the frames changed to the same style as the later freight cars.
#357 Joy Line coach, #458 observation car w/ red roofs; #458 obsv w/ lighted drumhead.
normally seen in orange, the red roof version passenger cars turn up occasionally. unlike the lithographed sides of the Joy Line coaches, the solid color roofs and frames are not difficult to disassemble and refinish. finding consistent wear is a good indication of an original piece. greatly worn sides with perfectly finished roofs and/ or frames would be a very red flag to me.
the #458 lighted drumhead observation is a highly sought after variation. be aware that reproduction drumheads have been made in the past.
Joy Line (left) vs. Marx (1935) wheel sets.
another check for a completely original Joy Line piece is looking closely at the wheels and axles. Joy Line wheels are noticeably larger and slightly more crudely made than even the first generation of Marx tinplate wheels shown above. also unlike the first Marx cars, later Joy Line wheel sets (black frame cars) should be crimped on the axle on both sides of the wheel, not just the inside, which greatly helped to keep the wheels in gauge on the slightly wide Joy Line frames. both these unique qualities of Joy Line are hard to pick up from typical auction pictures, but definitely effect the value if not original.
the final locomotive design from Girard, likely influenced by Marx, was the pressed steel model...
(104) clockwork loco w/ battery headlight & torpedo nose, (351) long tender
(106) electric and (105) clockwork locomotives
with the mixture of red or black for boiler and frame along with other varying detail finishes, not to mention being available as either a clockwork or electric model, there are likely more different versions of this Joy Line/ Marx locomotive than any other in the company's history.
1934 was definitely a pivotal year for Marx. with the acquisition of the Girard manufacturing plant and the last of the Joy Line inventory being sold off, Marx could finally get down to business and start putting his own unique signature on the toy train market.
tjl0824 We've moved on to 7 inch I see! ...
We've moved on to 7 inch I see! ...
i sure hope people feel free to jump anywhere into the ~50 years of Marx history with trains or even backtrack to cover anything interesting. no editors other than yourself in forums, ...yay(?)
speaking of which, i corrected a few ambiguities in the Joy Line post. the only thing about this forum that bothers me is the inability to actually upload a picture. if Comcast decides to pull the same stunt that Cox did and remove user web space, everything i've posted to date will go *poof*.
fun stuff...! cheers...gary
...and to go along with Gary's comment about jumping in anywhere in Marx history, I thought it would be fun to contrast his excellent Joy Line post with the opposite end of the Marx timeline. As Gary mentioned, Marx sold clockwork trains into the 1970's... I received a 526 set for Christmas, 1972:
To be fair, this is NOT the actual set I received in 1972. I still have my original train - and it runs like a champ - but I played with it very, very hard and it shows it. So, I bought this much nicer set that is still in the original box with key, instruction sheet and packing slip just for nostalgia! As a side note, the price tag is still on the box - it retailed for $4.95.
The clockwork locomotive in the last years of Marx was the not-so-pretty 401. Like most of Marx, there are variations to be collected, and I have yet to get them all. This is the run of the mill black windup:
It is not unusual to find these with various parts broken from the bodies... the cab roofs and pilots were especially prone to breakage when dropped.
Besides the basic black 401 windup, there are gray 401 windups, too:
It may be a bit difficult to see the difference in color from the pictures, but it is readily apparent when they are side-by-side.
In additon to the regular windup 401's that just featured a motor with a bell, there is also a rare version of the 401 that has the "Mother's Nightmare" mechanical puffer bulb - the windup motor has a flap that pumps a rubber bulb attached inside the shell to the smokestack. It would puff baking soda out the stack as it ran, making a nice mess for mom to clean up! I don't have an example of the 401 puffer, but I do have a 400 with the puffer bulb that I will post later.
Also, 401's were sold that were powered by two onboard "D" cell batteries:
Note the lack of siderods, which seems to be typical of 401 battery engines. However, the giveaway for a Marx onboard battery locomotive is the switch on the top - it moves side to side instead of front to back like a clockwork. Also, the lever is made out of a fiber or bakelight type material, while a clockwork lever is metal.
Back to the clockwork 401 - if you remember the previous post about the Green CV, I showed the underside which had a cover over the mechanism. That cover was quickly discontinued, and no further Marx windups had a cover UNTIL the very last. The gray 401 has a cover over the underside of the mechanism, while the rest of my mechanical 401's (yes, I have several... it's a sickness) do not:
As you can see, the upper gray 401 has the cover, the lower black 401 does not. Unlike the CV's motor cover - which was easily removeable - the 401's cover is crimped into place and is more difficult to remove. I imagine that this was part of the 1972 safety act that was mentioned before... and although I was a curious child who tended to explore the moving parts of my toys, I don't remember ever getting injured by my Marx 401's open mechanism...
How did the Consumer Product Safety Act put an end to wind-up trains???
AF1963 How did the Consumer Product Safety Act put an end to wind-up trains???
I wouldn't say that the CPSA of 1972 actually put an end to wind-up trains; rather, it put an end to selling Marx's version of the wind-up train set such as my 526. It is my understanding (from secondhand info, not primary research) that in particular, the 6" tin did not meet the new safety requirements, perhaps due to the somewhat sharp corners, wheelsets that were easy to remove and the resulting loose wire axle that could be easily swallowed by a child. Obviously, exposed gearing on the underside of the older 401's would not be allowed, either. Perhaps the Marx removeable key was a safety problem, too. At any rate, Marx did not survive as Marx for very many years after 1972 anyway. Louis Marx was getting up in years, and sold the company in the mid-1970's. However, other windup toys continued to be around after 1972, so I don't think we can say that the act put an end to windup trains - rather, the Marx tinplate trainset, remarkably similar to what was available in the 1930's, would not meet the new requirements and so it ceased to be sold. Marx had been producing a line of plastic cars for many years already, and these continued to be sold after 1972 - I'm pretty sure that I received my Meteor battery operated Marx train set (with plastic cars) in 1974, very close to the end of Marx.
At least that is my limited understanding of the issue, and would gladly welcome input from those more knowledgeable of the Act's impact on Marx trains. I'm always ready to learn something new!
i've read through CFR Part 1500.18 - "Banned toys and other banned articles intended for use by children", and while there is no specific paragraph pointing a finger at Marx clockwork motors, there is enough there (spinning, sharp edges, easily dislodged parts, etc) that when grouped, presented a dilemma to the toy manufacturer who probably didn't want to alienate parents.
i've got to think that James guess is correct and his early 1970's set shows what was probably Marx last attempt to satisfy critics by enclosing the motor, but to speculate further, i've got to think there were other extenuating circumstances involved in their decision. by the early 1970's technology finally was presenting an argument with the price of fractional horsepower motors dropping to the point where clockwork mechanisms as mechanical motion drives didn't really make economical sense anymore.
add to this the general dark ages of toy trains starting with the demise of Flyer in 1966 and MPC Lionel starting in 1970. it's surprising anyone lasted much longer.
I have mostly American Flyer but started getting Marx trains about a year ago and really like them. I've got several of the 6" tin sets and that is what was under the Christmas tree this past year. The tin plate has a special appeal, and I do not think a Marx train will ever not work with a little cleaning and oil.
Jim
one of the most desirable niches of Marx collecting has to be their prewar military sets and about a decade ago i got to join that club with the chance to pick up one of the largest sets made; the same 12 unit train advertised here...
1938 Toyland catalog (Phillip Morris Co.)
headed by a special weighted version of the #500 Army Supply Train locomotive, it included just about every olive drab car in the Marx arsenal.
#500 Army Supply Train locomotive & tender
fitted with the standard single reduction motor, in order to pull such a load, Marx added weights fore and aft in this version of the 2-4-2 loco. a look into the cab of one of these models should be enough to ID this uncommon version. the 500 tender also came with a green vs the black painted rear deck. the unweighted versions of the #500 locomotive can also be found as 0-4-0 wheel arrangements.
Olive Drab CV w/ #952 Army Supply Train wedge tender
a few other locomotives can be found in the Marx prewar military sets, perhaps the most desirable being the OD Commodore Vanderbilt coupled to the OD version of the (951) wedge tender.
#897 clockwork and electric OD locomotives
but my favorites have to be the lithographed 897 locomotives made as both a clockwork (with reversing motor) and electric motor version with headlight.
likely one of the major attractions of the military sets in general was the added play value of most of the cars which featured detachable loads and functional armaments.
(572D) Flat w/ olive drab truck and (572A) Flat w/ red airplane loads
perhaps one of the reasons i picked up the initial set at a bargain price was that all three vehicle flats came without loads which is a common occurrence. since then i have managed to track down those pieces with the last one, the OD truck, coming just a few months ago. not bad... only ~10 years to finally complete this set, yet the truck should have a small canopy. originally made from cardboard, this detail is quite rare to find intact. the small Marx plane also came in a decaled canopy model shown, but the portal window version is correct for the military plane load.
(572ST) flats with #5 and unnumbered litho tanks
the third type of mil flat included a working clockwork tank with two types of tank flat cars offered in sets. the unnumbered tank (right) is the one more commonly found in sets and was also finished in a solid OD version. though both are prized by collectors, the less common #5 tank flat is probably the more desirable of the two and unlike the lithographed unnumbered tank that could appear correctly in slightly different liveries (finding the front guns and/ or dome in different colors than shown here), the pictured #5 tank (WITHOUT the flipping mechanism found in other versions of this Marx tank) is generally considered to be the only correct tank load for this flat.
unloaded tank flats & underside tank views
the #5 tank flat car also has a special one piece attachment bracket found on no other Marx 6" car held down by tabs punched out of the frame, another unique feature found only on the #5 tank flat. the underside view of the unnumbered tank shows the torsion spring drive similar to the Joyline (#350 loco) mechanism mentioned earlier in this string. the large wheel up front was spun against a small piece of lighter flint to produce sparks simulating the front guns firing as it moved. found in both versions, i've yet to find an easy way to change the flint in the #5 tank.
(561M) Searchlight Car
the working searchlight cars were basically an OD version of the "civilian" red livery car. the handle is the only variable on this one, seen in red, black or olive drab colors.
(561M) dummy Searchlight Car
however, for inclusion in clockwork sets and also available as a separate sale item on an eight wheel frame, the unpowered (dummy) searchlight cars were equipped with a mirror instead of a lens.
(561G) Siege Gun
but probably the biggest draw for kids to the military sets were the working guns. largest in the inventory was the cannon or Siege Gun flat. able to rotate on its base, a spring loaded handle provided the energy to launch small wooden shells.
(572) Field Gun (left) & (572AA) Anti-Aircraft Gun
lethal weapon #2 came in the form of the (572AA) Anti-Aircraft Gun. the only major OD piece not found in the 12 unit set, this one fired a smaller 'shell'. the (572) field gun did not fire a projectile, but was equipped with a handle that turned a small ratchet wheel to at least give it that rat-a-tat-tat sound.
(572MG) Machine Gun car in 8-wheel and 4-wheel versions
a similar handle was mounted on the popular Machine Gun car, though two distinctly different mechanisms (as well as sounds) can be found on this one. look for the different handle positions (fore or aft) to distinguish between the two.
though all of the prewar 6" tin army cars were offered as 4 wheel types in electric sets, not all were produced for clockwork sets (with sliding tab/ slot couplers) or as 8-wheel versions which were only offered as separate sale items and not included in any known sets.
(552M) Ordnance Dept. Gondola
providing a mobile ammo supply, the Ordnance Gondola came as empty, with an assortment (8 AA + 8 canon shells) or fully loaded (30 canon shells). the 12 unit train complete with the fully loaded gondola was likely the reason the AA gun was not included in that set. for the nit-pickers, yes, there are only 27 shells in the gondola shown, ...unfortunately it's well past the era when ammo could be purchased OTC at toy stores.
one can never be 100% sure when not being the original owner, but i am almost certain the shells shown in the fully loaded gondola are original while i believe both variety shells in the 8+8 gondola to be reproduction. both shells and the cardboard insert are currently available as reproduction parts.
(557M) Radio Car
the first of two passenger type military cars was the Radio Car. offered in three different versions, with complete antenna array, with only the long antennas and with plain roof, this was also one of the few cars (no antenna version only) which was made on a sliding tab coupler frame for clockwork sets the other two being the dummy searchlight car already shown and an AA gun car (...still looking for that one myself).
(558M) Official Car
bringing up the rear and riding in style in the military version of the lighted, open platform observation, army personnel can be seen in the windows of these unique passenger litho'ed cars. as mentioned in a previous post, Marx color quality control also came into play with the military cars. side-by-side, it's easy to pick up the more OD or slightly more green livery that can regularly be seen in original paint examples.
Marx-bashed Sinclair-OD frame tank car
of course if you feel as i do, always looking to stretch out a consist, as i said earlier, it's easy to make up a car that never existed out of the factory. though, what else is going to fuel those gas guzzling tanks?
perhaps the hardest to classify O gauge train car ever made by Marx was the 2572 Ramp Car so i thought i'd post this one separately.
pictured on the box as having automatic (fork) couplers...
(2572) Automatic Unloader - Ramp Car w/ Critter tank
the actual car, though riding on scale (B) trucks, came only with fixed tab/ slot couplers. with the ramp positioned at the end a siding as pictured on the box cover, the car is activated when the pin mechanism just above the coupler contacts the ramp which will tilt the car platform up allowing the load to roll off.
it was slightly longer than (though able to couple to) 6" tin, not quite the length of a 7" car and with Olive Drab as it's only color option, having the scale wheels set it apart from the other military pieces, this was truly an odd piece in any set, yet highly valued by collectors. ...not the least of that reason being the two valid loads it could carry.
shown above as the military load version, the small tank is known to Marx collectors as the "Critter". i rarely like to mention dollar values, but in auction, i've seen sets and even individual pieces containing this small metal tank with it's simple wood turret easily exceed three figures. collector alert, ...there are repro (cast resin) Critters available.
(2572) Automatic Unloader - Ramp Car w/ Deluxe Delivery truck & trailers
in non-military sets, the correct and also very prized load are the Deluxe Delivery trailers typically found as a pair with the litho version of a standard red, 4:" Marx truck.
...so where are the Marx plastic collectors hiding?
overlandflyer ...so where are the Marx plastic collectors hiding?
I was wondering the same myself! Maybe the "Marx Tinplate Trains" title is scaring them away? I have a few sets plus some loose cars, and I like the deluxe cars the most, but I'll occasionally run across a $20 4-wheel plastic set that I can't refuse.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C6hIBmJmz14
The Big Rail set in the video is actually the set that got me started on Marx a little while back. Who else has some good plastic stuff to share?
balidas Love those Disney windups. ....
Love those Disney windups. ....
at times feeling a little envious of N-scalers being able to carry around their entire collection in one box, years ago i started to track down some small scale tin and Marx certainly helped me out; ...even with a few more Disney windups.
Marx-Disney lithographed channel track train
Donald is both engineer and fireman in this Disney character litho'ed version of the #376 channel track loco. along with the rest of the cars in this set, opposite side graphics are mirror images. only one gondola was included, but the two pictured show the only car style i have seen with a color variation.
being sold mostly over the counter at department stores and considered more of a train toy than a toy train, it's difficult to find exact information that would date these sets, but i would have to think it was around the same time Marx released the O gauge Mickey Mouse Meteor train. José Carioca is the youngest character (1943) to appear on either set and that information itself would narrow it down to the postwar era.
and as much as this small train attracts Disneyanites, the base seems to be even more of a draw for its rich graphics.
Disney channel track base
featuring characters from at least four early classic films who rarely gather for such a group pose, this piece always seems to attract more Disney fans than Marx collectors. it took quite some time to find one at a price that didn't make me cringe.
fortunately at the same time i caught the W.D. gang sleeping, i also nabbed another, more than likely later, Marx-Disney collaboration.
Donald and Mickey handcar/ channel track base
but rather than the channel track train, this base came with one of the smallest handcars Marx ever offered.
Donald and Mickey handcars - flanged wheel (l) and non-flanged wheel (r) versions
shown here with the O gauge flanged wheel version that was offered separately with a small circle of clockwork, 2-rail track; the version on the right is the correct windup handcar for the litho base. unfortunately Donald is sitting a bit low on that one awaiting repair after a transport mishap. ...i hate it when that happens!
Greenberg lists an electric version of this handcar and if anyone has ever seen an example, i sure would like to hear about it.
well, that's it for my Disney/ Marx, but a little more channel track when i get the time.
overlandflyer ... a little more channel track when i get the time.
... a little more channel track when i get the time.
i'll begin by saying that any dates given here, and there will definitely be very few, have very little evidence (eg: catalogs, 3rd party catalog ads) to back them up. aside from the early electric channel track train with most references pointing to the late 1930's, i would say as a best guess that all other channel track trains were likely produced in the 1950's and 60's. certainly anything with a plastic part would likely date to after 1953/54 when plastics first started to be used widely in the toy industry.
in the late 30's Marx took their electric Speedway (race car) set, replaced the over-under figure-8 track with a simple oval and designed a new locomotive shell to give birth to the New York Central #5151 streamlined locomotive.
Marx electric channel track train - NYC #5151 loco & tender, #557 caboose & locomotive chassis w/ shell removed
designed not only with a reversing a/c motor, the internal gearing extended to a grit wheel and flint holder up front and under the stack cutout to produce the well known Marx *sparkling* effect.
Marx electric channel track trains
two different consists were offered with the same #5151 locomotive and tender as the motive power. passenger sets included 3-4 #5153 NYC Utopia coaches with a #5159 observation car; freight sets included the unnumbered Merchants Dispatch car, #9712 Comfort Coal Co (Erie) hopper & the #557 NYC caboose. these being the only cars produced, the largest freight set merely doubled up on the hopper and reefer. except for the hopper, all other cars, passenger and freight, were produced with a single die shape; a well known Marx cost cutting practice.
unfortunately the track i picked up with one of these sets is in less than usable condition and in storage, but when i run across it again, i'll try to pick out a good piece or two to photograph. i would have to say a boxed set with operational condition track could be an extremely rare find.
the rest of the channel track trains i have are all windup.
Marx clockwork channel track train
likely packaged as a box within a box, the Marline freight should look familiar as the non-Disney version of the same train; this round appearing as #376 Pennsylvania torpedo-style streamlined locomotive, #3463 "Trainblazer" tender, #9049 GN boxcar, #1914 Virginian gondola and unnumbered (though sometimes mis-ID'ed as #27000 which is a weight marking) Marline caboose.
Marx channel track base
though still presenting a nice lithographed base, compared to the Disney version, the Marline base was far less exciting. whether the Marline train existed previous to the Disney set or was changed when the licensing ran out, is a question i would like to get an answer to. definitely produced after the Disney set, another use was found when packaged with the follow-on plastic version train.
#2065 Twin Train Set
this set featured a double track oval and contained both the Marline metal windup...
#5400 Pennsylvania channel track freight train
...along with a clockwork plastic freight train. through observation, i have see just about all five of these pieces in all four different colors, but in any one particular set, there are generally a mixture of at least 3 and typically all 4 colors. again, any information about known manufacture dates would be appreciated.
another packaging of the plastic train only was this 'Made in Canada" version.
Marx (Canada) channel track train set
containing both the plastic train (all pieces marked "Made in USA") and a single lane plastic track oval (all pieces marked "Made in USA"), perhaps the box was made in Toronto?
Louis Marx & Co., (Australia) channel track train
despite the cover art, the Aussie version included the same plastic train with two small differences. the Made in USA was carved out of the mold and the wheel sets are white rather than black. this box only contained the train so i have no idea if it was sold as part of a set or as a separate sale 'floor train'.
the only other Marx general purpose channel track train i am aware of was the miniature M10000.
Clockwork, channel track M10000
also made as a unpowered push toy, i have seen the small box this came in, but have no idea if it was sold in conjunction with a track or base. again, forum reader input would be appreciated.
a few other special purpose miniature trains were produced by Marx. one of the most interesting to see operate was the Shuttlin' Choo-Choo
comprised of only a single, non-coupled loco and boxcar...
Marx Shuttlin' Choo-Choo set
the two passive switches on the base direct the engine through a repeating pattern of shifting (shuttlin') the "Automatic Line" freight car from side to side.
the final piece i have is described in Greenburg as a Hiawatha-type general purpose locomotive.
Scenic Mountain Express train
though i believe i have seen a slightly different version, this particular small two piece set is usually associated with the roller-coaster-type track sections known as the Scenic Mountain Express. to help it around this extreme graded track, the miniature clockwork mechanism includes an ingenious center cog wheel to assist on the uphill grades.
and if i could just wrap this post up with a slightly off topic plug (which i hope will be allowed)...
Marx Speedway race cars
i try not to get distracted by other Marx toys, but the sucker i am, i just can't seem to stay away from the Speedway race car sets i come across while searching for channel track trains. not only are the tiny cars (all with slightly different 'appliances') another Marx litho attraction, but the under-over figure-8 track (in at least 3 known patterns) is also a litho work of art in my opinion.
since this group picture i have managed to pick up the #5 car "Comet", but i'm still looking for the last one (i believe there were only 6 numbers in this style), the #2 car, "Arrow". if anyone knows the whereabouts of one that might be available (in similar condition to the ones above), i sure would like to hear about it (via conversation contact). i have extra #6 and #3 cars for trade.
we now return you back to O gauge.
I've never seen this before. This is interesting. About what scale is this? My sister and my girlfriend would both love to have these.
overlandflyer balidas: Love those Disney windups. .... at times feeling a little envious of N-scalers being able to carry around their entire collection in one box, years ago i started to track down some small scale tin and Marx certainly helped me out; ...even with a few more Disney windups. Marx-Disney lithographed channel track train Donald is both engineer and fireman in this Disney character litho'ed version of the #376 channel track loco. along with the rest of the cars in this set, opposite side graphics are mirror images. only one gondola was included, but the two pictured show the only car style i have seen with a color variation. being sold mostly over the counter at department stores and considered more of a train toy than a toy train, it's difficult to find exact information that would date these sets, but i would have to think it was around the same time Marx released the O gauge Mickey Mouse Meteor train. José Carioca is the youngest character (1943) to appear on either set and that information itself would narrow it down to the postwar era. and as much as this small train attracts Disneyanites, the base seems to be even more of a draw for its rich graphics. Disney channel track base featuring characters from at least four early classic films who rarely gather for such a group pose, this piece always seems to attract more Disney fans than Marx collectors. it took quite some time to find one at a price that didn't make me cringe. fortunately at the same time i caught the W.D. gang sleeping, i also nabbed another, more than likely later, Marx-Disney collaboration. Donald and Mickey handcar/ channel track base but rather than the channel track train, this base came with one of the smallest handcars Marx ever offered. Donald and Mickey handcars - flanged wheel (l) and non-flanged wheel (r) versions shown here with the O gauge flanged wheel version that was offered separately with a small circle of clockwork, 2-rail track; the version on the right is the correct windup handcar for the litho base. unfortunately Donald is sitting a bit low on that one awaiting repair after a transport mishap. ...i hate it when that happens! Greenberg lists an electric version of this handcar and if anyone has ever seen an example, i sure would like to hear about it. well, that's it for my Disney/ Marx, but a little more channel track when i get the time. cheers...gary
balidas: Love those Disney windups. ....
balidas I've never seen this before. This is interesting. About what scale is this? My sister and my girlfriend would both love to have these.
huh... a girlfriend who like trains? i didn't think they made those. historically i've found it's best not to mention the hobby until about the 15th date.
as with most tinplate, scale is a tough call where prototype examples never existed, but if size really matters, the channel track cars have a gauge of about 1" and the litho bases are 13" x 21½". the Donald & Mickey handcar is the largest piece at 5" in length with the #3462 tender being the smallest at 2" long.
again i'll mention the very obvious, though, that you'll usually be competing with W.D.P. collectors. locating these sets in categories such as tin windup toys typically draws much less attention than those listed under Disneyana. luckily many Marx collectors dismiss the Disney trains as being too "toy-like", ...not sure why, but i find that kind of amusing.
good luck...gary
Well my girlfriend grew up around trains. Her dad, his brothers and her grandfather were all model train enthusiasts. She likes most the prewar lithographed Marx.
Taking an exception from simply reading this thread, I just wanted to pop in and comment that it is terrific. Marx is very collectable, colorful and fun and affordable. I am glad to see forum members diverging from Lionel ( as much as I enjoy the brand) to cover prewar Flyer and now Marx. To me these threads constitute as much enjoyment as any one article I have read, either at TCA or elsewhere. Keep up the great work.
I just rebuilt my M1000 using a grafted motor using the adapter mounting bracket I got..good for another several decades, beyond my lifetime..rewarding is one word for this sort of enjoyable preservation.. You folks have got the photography down..the images are great!
http://www.youtube.com/user/justtupinsan?feature=mhee
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Wallyworld, I enjoyed seeing your clockwork layout in operation! You did a lot in a little space, great to see the windups in action.
Looking back through this thread, I noticed that we haven't touched on the Mercury's yet. Of course, I'm a clockwork enthusiast, so that's what I'll concentrate on. I do have to admit, I don't have nearly the variety of Mercury locomotives as I do CV's, but this will get the ball rolling...
First up, a run of the mill clockwork Mercury that I restored:
Nameplates, handrails and the stack are all reproduction parts from Grossman. This is just a typical Mercury with Tab and Slot couplers, windup motor w/ bell & sparker, and blackened wheels and motor sideplates that are typical of postwar Marx windups. Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate!
Another version of the Marx Mechanical Mercury:
I know that it appears to just be an unrestored version of the first Mercury, but this little jewel is a whistling version. You can't tell the difference from this angle, but the windup motor has the whistle that can be seen either through the stack or from the bottom of the locomotive. I mentioned it in one of the CV posts, but it is worth repeating that the Mercury whistler (which - as far as I can tell - was only offered postwar) has a slightly different mechanism than the rarer CV whistler (which - as far as I can tell - was only offered in 1942). It pays to "inspect the wheels" when buying a windup Mercury to see if it is a whistler or not... I wouldn't call them rare, but the plain sparker version is a lot more common.
Mercury's were offered with Tab & Slot couplers for 6" tin trains, or an articulated coupler for the articulated passenger trains:
As you can see, the Mercury on the left has the coupling for the articulated trains, while the one on the right has the good old Tab & Slot coupler. The difference is in the floor of the cab, which is a separate part of the body that is held in place by tabs bent over through slots in the side of the cab. As a side note, the blue Mercury on the left was originally red, it is a custom repaint in a darker blue than Marx used on their blue versions.
I don't have any examples yet, but windup Mercury's were also offered with reversing motors. I know that the windup versions were available in black, red and the rare blue... I won't comment on any other colors - either clockwork or electric - since I haven't had the chance the research the Merc's in the same manner as the CV's.
Speaking of CV's, there is often confusion between the CV and Mercury by some who aren't as familiar with Marx. Here are a couple of pictures so you can see the differences:
Here is a Mercury on the left, compared to a CV on the right. The Merc has a rounder nose than the CV's shovel-shaped snout. The Mercury headlight is smaller than the open bezel used on the CV. Also, the shape of the opening by the front drivers is slightly different... the Merc has a bigger radius as it curves up when compared to the CV. There is also a slight difference in the cab roof:
Note how the Mercury's roof (left) is smooth from left to right, while the CV's roof (right) has little bends just in from the sides of the cab. Another thing to note is that the Mercury only has a smokestack, no domes. A CV will have one or two domes, depending on its age.
So, there is a basic primer on the Mercury... hopefully others can fill in some pictures of the electrics and other variations.
JamesP .... Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate! ...
.... Sharp-eyed observers will note the scratch on the side near the front: I like to run my windups, and this Mercury was a victim of a bad wreck on my layout a few weeks back. Such is the dangers of actually running tinplate! ...
i'm not sure if you observed this James, but when you do run clockwork locomotives, especially at ground level, it doesn't take long before you realize why the front of so many seen for sale seem to be a lot more are scratched and damaged up front than their electric counterparts. if an electric trains jumps the track, without power it tends to stop rather quickly, whereas windup motors know no such limitation and will often continue running until they find a chair, table leg or wall.
i was photographing some Marx 3/16" scale cars today and have a little more editing to do on those, but since James brought up the Mercury, here are a couple i usually have out on display when not running them so they were handy to pose quickly.
Clockwork (whistling) and Electric (9 VDC motor) Mercury locomotives & tenders
big L may have its famous Blue Comet and if you have the $ there are typically half a dozen or more for sale every year, but though only realizing a fraction of the cost of a Comet even on the best day, the Marx blue Mercury set shows up considerably less often. fitted with the whistling clockwork motor, it pulled a unique blue livery version of the standard Marx 6" passenger cars. the tender shown is one of two that were included in sets, the other being a blue version of the standard NYC rivet tender.
Blue livery 6" Montclair coach & Observation Car
it would have been nice if my 3-car set had included both named 6" passengers cars, but due to stock shortages that may have existed on any particular day at the factory, many Marx sets seem to show up with substitute cars and passenger sets were no different. this set was packed with two Montclair coaches, though it could have just as well contained two Bogota coaches or probably the most desirable combination being one each. most Marx 6" passenger sets, even electrics, were typically 3-car consists.
once again Marx got the quality control a little wrong on this set and the locomotive blue is generally much lighter than the cars which are also typically a little deeper blue than the frames.
Greenberg claims that only the red Mercury was made postwar, but with plastic wheels on this set and a definitely postwar box (fairly fatigued so in storage), i've got to think the blue set was also postwar; more than likely early-mid 1950's. i do believe the Greenberg statement that the whistling mechanism added too much complexity to the clockwork drive so was not a very long lived option contributing even more to the rarity of this set.
Mercury locomotive with articulated tender
a slightly more popular livery for the Mercury loco was in red (some with a chrome front) as both electric and windup versions. this example is a later model which was sold as a battery (trackside) operated set which i will describe in a little more detail at a later date.
Mercury locomotive standard tab/ slot (l) and articulated (r) couplers
but being an articulated coupler version, i wanted to show another view of the cab deck difference between the two. what i assume is a very (very) old price of $4.79 stays indelibly marked in the blue Merc cab since it's not noticeable when coupled and the thought of removing any paint with strong solvents is always an undesirable action. on painted or litho surfaces, the strongest cleanser i use is a mild dish-washing liquid.
with these two locomotives, it might be a good idea to again mention that with the right tools and experience as James has shown with his very nice Mercury restoration back to original black, in another modeler's hands could just as easily become a refinish to another color including the rare Marx blue. unfortunately there is no simple test to identify a repaint but after you've looked at enough examples, the inherent imperfections of original finishes (shells were dip painted, not brushed or sprayed) and consistency of wear become the best indications for red or green flags.
overlandflyer and if i could just wrap this post up with a slightly off topic plug (which i hope will be allowed)...
I could care less what you put on here, just as long as it is related somehow to what is being discussed.
I've never seen passenger cars for channel track before.
I think the Mercury's got covered pretty quick! Even to this day, "Brand L" has never made one, proving that Marx is better on they're streamliners.
Since you mentioned running your trains Gary, then you would obviously have a layout, right?
tjl0824 ... I've never seen passenger cars for channel track before. I think the Mercury's got covered pretty quick! Even to this day, "Brand L" has never made one, proving that Marx is better on they're streamliners. Since you mentioned running your trains Gary, then you would obviously have a layout, right?
... I've never seen passenger cars for channel track before.
1) here's a channel track passenger train that took me about a decade to find...
Ranger Steel Products (Brooklyn, NY) channel track passenger train
more often seen as a small freight train in green livery, the Ranger RR was one of the few channel track roadnames that had a small variety of pieces beyond the initial set.
2) so you think that's it for the Mercury?
3) as to a home layout, anything that requires permanent space doesn't seem to work well on the upper condo floors and a recent diversion to small scale (HA!) and slightly larger live steam has claimed any leftover garage space, but the "hardwood central" gets setup and runs quite often.
stay tuned. cheers...gary
Gary, I love those two Mercurys!
I think the evidence certainly points to the Blue Mercury as being a postwar set; one theory is that it was offered in the 1950 Ward's catalog p. 136. That ad doesn't describe the color of the train except to say it is "...lithographed with authentic details in bright colors." The ad is typical catalog sepia tone, although the train is certainly lighter in color than the black trains around it, the locomotive being comparable in tone to the Disney train above it, and the locomotive is definitely lighter than the remainder of the train, just like Gary's blue Mercury. Marx must have had trouble matching the blue paint on the locomotive to the blue ink on the lithographed cars. The red Mercury locomotive seems to be well matched to the red cars, which is typical of the examples I have seen. The blue cars and locomotives that I have observed seem to be all over the place, shade-wise!
A little more Mercury catalog information: The Mercury first shows up in Ward's 1937 catalog on p. 53 - an electric sparker with a grill decal above the headlight... presumably in gray. It has a 6" tin freight train with Tab & Slot couplers. I have a partial picture of what is reportedly a Sears 1938 catalog (must be the Wishbook, it's not the same as the '38 fall catalog) that shows a non-sparking electric articulated. Sears has a wind-up reversing articulated Mercury in the 1939 Fall catalog, p. 895... for the low price of $1.00! Just a few of the early advertisements; one of these days I will go through and attempt to document the Merc timeline in a similar manner to the CV's.
As a side note, I noticed that Gary's Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with siderods (on most locomotives that used them) had a hole in the driver and the siderods had a Z-bend tab that fits in the hole. I have also seen windup Mercurys (and one 591) with this same staked siderod. I wish there was a timeline correlation with the transition from the windup motor w/ ratchet to the windup motor w/ ratcheting gear and the change from 7 spoke stamped drivers to the 14 spoke diecast drivers, but I have seen what I consider original examples of both motors with both kinds of drivers. Very confusing... and very typical of Marx!
And finally, a comment on the restorations / repainting... anytime I repaint or customize a locomotive, I take a paint marker and make a note to that effect on the underside of the locomotive somewhere. I also include my name and date for future reference. Like most everyone in the toy train world, I don't want people to think that my projects are originals or some rare variation. I know I would never pass them off as such; but marking them will help keep them from being mistaken for something they are not in the future. This was an idea that I picked up from the guys on the Marx Group... I thought it was a great idea and have used it ever since.
I'm looking forward to more pictures & information!
JamesP Gary, I love those two Mercurys! ... As a side note, I noticed that Gary's Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with siderods (on most locomotives that used them) had a hole in the driver and the siderods had a Z-bend tab that fits in the hole. And finally, a comment on the restorations / repainting... - James
...
As a side note, I noticed that Gary's Red Mercury has what I consider to be rare wheels: they are a version of the very common 14 spoke diecast driver, but with the siderods staked in place on a cast post. Most 14 spoke drivers with siderods (on most locomotives that used them) had a hole in the driver and the siderods had a Z-bend tab that fits in the hole.
And finally, a comment on the restorations / repainting...
i know that after a while people would stop believing my "unbelievable deal" stories so i don't really try to pass the blue Merc set off as one and at the time (long before my addiction to live steam) was the most i had ever paid for any train set, but as i mentioned already, ...not easy to locate in original C7 condition. and despite Marx sometimes lack of color QC, this set has unusually closely-matched frames.
Marx is so diverse it's very hard to pick a favorite, but these two sets are definitely in my top 10. i need to find an HO power pack to run to red set more often. the external battery pack takes 6 D cells.
whistling clockwork (l) and 9vdc (r) non-reversing motors
here are the two Mercury motors out of the shell. James, are you sure you ID'ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
a good visual to see just what was involved with the whistle mechanism. a fast internal gear train spun a propeller-type wheel inside the housing, while a geared down external wheel, timed the baffle opening for a grade crossing sequence (over, and over, and over ....again). unlike the simple mainspring to wheels linkage, ...so many things to possibly go wrong.
James, ...you have no idea how many times i rewrote that paragraph on restoration an repainting. every time i read it back it seemed like there was a way you could take it that an artist as yourself could be passing off forged pieces, while also attempting to compliment your work. James and others can likely attest to seeing some amazing Marx, not only restorations, but repaints that seriously outclass anything Marx ever produced. and hopefully i got the point across, many times that is the red flag. the finish is just TOO good. i looked at the two Mercury shells this evening while pulling out the motors and it is easy to pick up the original paint runs around the edges in just the right light, but unfortunately very difficult to catch on CCD.
overlandflyer James, are you sure you ID'ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
James, are you sure you ID'ed the DC motor wheels correctly as spoked(?)
Ooops... that's I get for posting when I'm tired! Those certainly aren't 14 spokers on your red Mercury; but I have seen pics of two different Mercury windups with the 14 spoke drivers that have the siderods staked on a cast-in pin. ...And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
Gary, I didn't take any offense to the post about refurbished vs original... it was worded just fine - nothing accusing about it - and it had very good information that we all need to be aware of. I know that both of us want honesty & integrity in the collectable toy train world.
Having said that, it is an unfortunate fact that at times, refurbished items are sometimes passed off as originals, either on purpose or due to a lack of knowledge. It is a great benefit of this thread that anyone who is interested in Marx can learn what to look for to discern an original from a restored or refurbished item. I hope that other "tinkerers" such as myself will might consider marking their projects in an inconspicuous place, so that future collectors will know the pedigree of those items. Just an idea to help avoid future confusion... now back to the Marx trains!
JamesP ...And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
...And, that is a very clean whistling motor!
just another example of what i meant by "consistent wear". i wouldn't expect to find a grimy motor in what cosmetically looks to be a little used set. electrics have even a better indication in that the Marx skid pickups will definitely show wear over time and heavy use. the pickup on the d/c motored Mercury also shows little if any wear which is also consistent with the condition of the shell.
one good thing Greenberg did for collectors was to introduce a standardized means of identification for frames, trucks and couplers. the book uses drawings to show the different types, but i think pictures do a better job especially with 8 wheel trucks. let's start with type A...
Marx 8 wheel 6" tin boxcar with A truck type
type A trucks
found on Marx 6" tin with either tab and slot or automatic, one-way couplers, there are two distinct variations, however, both look identical from a normal side view...
type A trucks - variation
the difference being in a punched out area just above the side frame detail. adding a bit more realism to the 6" tin, 4 wheel frame cars, this first 8 wheel truck was eliminated from the Marx inventory after WWII with the introduction in 1942 of the more realistic scale cars and scale truck design.
Marx 3/16" scale boxcar with B truck type
type B 'scale' truck
one of their nicest looking and lowest riding trucks, the type B (also referred to as their 'scale' truck) appears mostly on metal 3/16" scale cars though it can be found on some early plastic cars and 7" cabooses. literally made from 'tin plated' sheet metal, typical trucks are found worn and in far less pristine condition than the example pictured.
Marx 3/16" scale passenger car with C truck type
type C truck
the diecast type C trucks were used on 3/16" passenger cars and the (9551) NYC diecast tender. shown here with right hand wound springs, there is a note in Greenberg that pieces with either right hand or left hand springs exist, but i do not have any other examples with the few passenger cars i have.
Marx 3/16" scale tanker with D truck type
type D trucks - (top to bottom) RH springs, LH springs, worn die embossing
why Marx abandoned the scale B trucks on its 3/16" scale cars later in their production was probably due to their initial use to raise the heights for compatibility with their 7" sets of the early 1950's, but regardless of the reason, the change spelled the end of their albeit small but scale 'looking' O gauge and Marx eventually switched the use of scale to refer to their later 1950's venture into HO.
the spring winding orientation is much more evident in the D trucks and examples of both right hand and left hand wound springs can easily be found. late in their production, the stamping dies really started to show wear with much of the detail blurred or missing.
Marx plastic tender with G truck type
type G truck
with the same Bettendorf style as the type B scale trucks, the stamped metal G truck was perhaps the most prolific produced by Marx and was the staple truck for their medium to deluxe plastic cars through the end of their production.
as i mentioned previously, i'm not much of a Marx plastic collector and the last two truck types, E & F, were molded plastic and used exclusively on some deluxe plastic cars and on later 3/16" scale passenger cars. hopefully someone contributing plastic series car information will touch on their use though i might come across a few examples eventually.
Although I wouldn't call myself a plastic collector, I still have quite a few pieces belonging to this category. To finish up what Gary started, here are the other two types of trucks:
First, Type E, or deluxe trucks
overlandflyer literally made from 'tin plated' sheet metal, typical trucks are found worn and in far less pristine condition than the example pictured.
literally made from 'tin plated' sheet metal, typical trucks are found worn and in far less pristine condition than the example pictured.
Here's what "typical" trucks are going to look like
The mixing of coupler types in a single consist is one of the less covered topics on Marx that I am glad you mentioned.
tjl0824 Later on (I'm not sure of the exact date) the dummy knuckle coupler was added to the mix, ... Trevor
the more realistic plastic knuckle coupler became the new fixed coupler for 6" & 7" tin and 4-wheel plastic cars, however, for 6" tin car clockwork sets, sliding tab & slot couplers were still used. to make use of the rolling stock already out there, Marx did a great job with a compatible design.
*collector alert*... reproduction plastic knuckle couplers are available. actually a good thing because as rugged as they are, knuckles aren't as kid-proof as the metal tabs and it's not that unusual to spot a broken coupler knuckle or two in a well used set. they are rivet attached to the frame, but Robert Grossman Co. (well known Marx replacement parts source) also has rivets and a setting tool to do the job correctly.
here is another shot of the metal vs. plastic fork/ tilt couplers. the hole in the metal coupler serves no real operational purpose and its existence has been theorized as a registration point for the stamping process. it was a nice innovation to include the tab slot in the plastic version.
frankly i find that the two types generally couple very nicely with the main tuning adjustment sometimes being the proper seating of the two light springs; at times a frustrating chore. from my experience scale cars with either type auto couplers tend to max out at about 15 car consists when the strain on the head end couplers just becomes too great. a slightly serendipitous confidence in that's just about the same number of different scale cars that Marx ever made.
listed in a major auction house lot as "CV Loco, clock work untested; ..." it was obvious that only a very brief look if any at all was given by the appraisers and with seeing what was probably thought to be the standard clockwork brake protruding from the boiler, it was misidentified in their catalog.
even from the small auction pictures (this was only 1 piece of the lot along with 11 early frame cars), it was easy to spot the swing peg coupler and from my winning bid i would have been happy to get an early clockwork CV, but to my surprise, what arrived was an early electric CV.
possibly only made in 1934, the manual reverse was quickly replaced with a toggling solenoid design making this motor quite a rare find. i only have one other example and it is in an M10000 streamliner (without siderods).
the fanstock clip up front provided an attachment point for the locomotive headlight.
despite the fairly solid C6 condition, as was mentioned earlier, this is one locomotive you wouldn't want to restore. the only exception i sometimes make is to the wiring (often trying to use a period replacement piece if possible) to restore operational capability, but this one as found was fairly sound and not surprisingly for Marx, worked right out of the bubble wrap.
[note: reformat fix: 16 Aug]
Gary brought up a good point about CV's - and Marx locomotives in general, since most of them came in electric and windup versions - when it comes to identifying motors in pictures. I think we may have touched on this before, but always look carefully at the lever - notice that the early electric manual reverse lever is almost square on the end, whereas most Marx clockwork brake levers have a round end. The exception is the reversing windups; they have a lever that is bent over 90 degrees and can be easily confused in a picture with the square ended electric reverse lever. Another tip is to always look at the area between the drivers... with a clockwork, the area is plain, but on an electric you will see either gears or a brushplate, depending on the side. If the underside is visible, the difference between a clockwork and electric is obvious... do you see gears or a sliding pickup? But, when looking at the underside of a CV or Mercury windup, always look for the tell-tale "blob" in the smokebox which would indicate a whistling motor! Many times, the whistle may not work even if the mechanism winds and runs, so the seller may not realize it is a whistler. Usually, the chamber has dirt or spiderwebs in it, so you merely have to take it apart and clean it to make it work. The last thing to look for in a bottom view of a windup CV (in particular, an early windup swing-peg CV) is the hub behind one of the front wheels for the wheel governor. A clockwork swingpeg should have a wheel governor, and even very early CV's w/ Slot & Tab couplers could have one. Also, early Marx electrics have two small sliding electrical pickups, whereas later electrics have a one-piece slider. I'm not well versed on when the change was made, so someone else will have to fill in the details on that!
Anyway, these are a few things that can help you determine a) what you are actually seeing in the picture and b) if the locomotive has the proper motor in it. Marx motors are largely interchangeable, so it pays to learn about the different motors and locomotives so you can make informed decisions about your purchases.
Also, let me just say again how much I am enjoying this thread. I have already learned a lot, and can't wait to learn even more!
as i mentioned with the military cars, the extended play value of anything on a flat car made them quite popular with the original owners as stand-alone toys separated from their rail car base, the collector effect being that of often finding a flat without the load. this problem is often even more compounded when a relative eventually discovers an old set but doesn't make the connection thus selling the train and loads separately.
by 1938, (though there is some evidence that points to late 1937), the development of the Marx 6" tin line reached a state where frame and basic car designs would continue practically unchanged through the next four decades. and though these body styles appeared in many other roadnames and liveries, the core "550" series cars were the first produced and likely the most recognizable as classic Marx tin.
already showing a few of the earlier 8-wheel red frame cars, there is some evidence that the red litho frame 4-wheel cars were the first released with the new frame design, but speculation that difficulties in accurate litho registration prompted the change to a plain black frame within the first year of production.
i've seen two examples of boxed red litho frame sets, and they both contained the same locomotive...
...the black nameplate CV with a black frame rivet tender. i've seen a few examples of the 551 tender on a red litho frame and must admit the red/ black/white contrast makes it sharp looking, but it was never produced by Marx. the 551 tender frame in this style should always be plain black, though missing practically any tender specific details, this car is quite often posed within a freight consist rather than directly behind the locomotive.
the very common Rock Island gondolas were eventually made in a number of different detail color variations, but these two liveries are the only two that should be on the early red litho frames.
two staple fuels of railroading, Oil & Coal were represented (quite regionally accurate, if i might add) with the Santa Fe oil tanker and Northern Pacific coal hopper. the NP hopper also legitimately appeared in a red livery, but personally i think the blue is a better match for the red litho frame.
the last car styles included the blue roof, C&S reefer with doors in the very versatile boxcar shape that went on to sport many different roadnames and liveries, and probably the most recognizable of all, the #556 NYC caboose. other than very minor variations to the graphics, including a few slight changes in the "556" font style, the basic NYC 'classic red' caboose likely appeared in more freight sets than any other 6" tin car.
two sliding shoe pickup powered cars were also made in the short, red litho frame time period but i only have one of the two, the 561 searchlight car which used the same lamp as the 410 searchlight accessory shown above. missing from the picture to complete the entire offering of red frame cars is the 559 floodlight car; two smaller lights mounted on basically the same flatcar base with center rail electric pickup.
as previously mentioned (perhaps a number of times by now), it is unfortunate that body / frame swaps on Marx 6" tin are remarkably easy to perform and collectors should always approach uncommon pieces with prudence. it's hard to say 'never' with Marx, but with a little education, it eventually becomes easy to spot the very suspicious pieces.
removed by me.
Great Info & Photos thanks for taking the time to share with us! I have some questions -
Anyone have some info on Marx Track? I'm wondering how to sort out my box of track it is mixed Marx 3 rail and Lionel o-27, I once read that the way the rail bottoms either fold up or down is a good indicator. Which is which?
Also I'd be lnterested in seeing some 50s battery powered or plastic wheeled cars with the punched in place tab & slot couplers, I have some of these cars but no loco, I'm wondering what would have pulled it? And how many different cars were available in this style? Anyone have some?
I have a Union Pacific tender & Caboose, a B&O Gondola (I was able to make the gondola from a spare parts body with a bad frame and a good plastic wheel frame I had) Did Marx ever make a yellow B&O gondola in this style car?
All my marx cars have 4 plastic wheels and Punched Tab & Slot Couplers....Can these cars be modified to run behind a Marx electric loco? They jam up & short out the center rail when it goes in reverse.
rack776 ... Also I'd be interested in seeing some 50s battery powered or plastic wheeled cars with the punched in place tab & slot couplers, I have some of these cars but no loco, I'm wondering what would have pulled it? And how many different cars were available in this style? Anyone have some? I have a Union Pacific tender & Caboose, a B&O Gondola (I was able to make the gondola from a spare parts body with a bad frame and a good plastic wheel frame I had) Did Marx ever make a yellow B&O gondola in this style car? All my Marx cars have 4 plastic wheels and Punched Tab & Slot Couplers....Can these cars be modified to run behind a Marx electric loco? They jam up & short out the center rail when it goes in reverse. -Jason
Also I'd be interested in seeing some 50s battery powered or plastic wheeled cars with the punched in place tab & slot couplers, I have some of these cars but no loco, I'm wondering what would have pulled it? And how many different cars were available in this style? Anyone have some?
All my Marx cars have 4 plastic wheels and Punched Tab & Slot Couplers....Can these cars be modified to run behind a Marx electric loco? They jam up & short out the center rail when it goes in reverse.
unfortunately the best way to describe Marx track is through pictures and i'm going to have to wait on that.
sounds like the collection of the Marx you describe is from the 1960's which saw some of the last of the metal cars and clockwork locomotive sets. and though those plastic wheeled cars are metal, they were probably headed up by a #400 or #401 plastic shell clockwork locomotive which both came in numerous variations including color (grey or black), wheel type, w/wo siderods, etc with even some mechanical smokers (using a dry powder) and at least one battery powered model.
i doubt if an electrical short would be a problem with sliding tab&slot couplers, but you're probably correct in anticipating a slight jam-up that might occur when a long string of sliding tabs is shifted into reverse. very slowly might be the ticket there. the upside is hearing all those couplers popping back into position as the train reverts to forward again.
there are at least 3-4 dozen 6" tin cars that were made with sliding couplers for clockwork sets with a good number of those being common enough to find in a relatively short time. as mentioned in an earlier post i would really recommend Walt Hiteshew's "Definitive Guide to Marx 6" Tin" as the best reference to see what was made and general level of availability (findability?). alternately, keep looking into this string and within time, i'm sure some pictures will eventually pop up.
in regard to the B&O gondola question, yes, the #241708 yellow B&O gondola is indeed Marx. the two most common versions have either a red or a gray interior.
by the way, nothing wrong with being a purist, but with the already mentioned compatibility of Marx coupler styles, you really needn't limit your consists to only sliding couplers. one or two fixed tab or even plastic knuckle coupled cars withing a consist will probably not overly effect a clockwork loco's performance.
there is also nothing wrong with mixing plastic and metal wheel cars. frankly many of the cars i have that originally had plastic wheels i have stored away and replaced with metal wheels to save on wear. can't say i also don't like the increase in the passive "sound system", though.
I have not seen many 7" Marx sets pictured on here yet, This set is a little rough & rusty, has no boxes but it is priceless to me it was bought for my Dad by my Grandfather in the 1950s. Must be one of the only marx locos that did not run with some oil in history, it had a stripped idler gear...I found it was caused by the side rod jamming up against a replacement motor mount screw that was slightly too long. I found a gear and all is well now, even the original light bulb still works! Anyone have more info on this set or a date when it was produced?
I did not appreciate how much work goes into taking photos & writing a post untill I tried it my self!
Thanks for all the hard work guys especially - Overlandflyer & James P!
I have a 4040 set in the white box. Can anyone tell me the correct transformer for this set?
hscsltb I have a 4040 set in the white box. Can anyone tell me the correct transformer for this set?
there are a few different verified versions of the #4040 set, but all seem to be headed up by either the #400 or #490 locomotive and include 4 wheel plastic cars. a small, 25W #309 or #329 transformer was more than likely correct for any of these sets.
With a bit of trepidation, I will attempt a post on the forum's new format!
Taking a bit of a break from my primary Marx obsession (windup locomotives), Gary's previous post w/ the Red Litho Framed 6" tin got me to thinking about some of the 6" tin cabooses Marx produced. There have been several pictures of them posted in the previous pages - some of them of hard to find variations - but I'll post a few of the cabooses, most of them very common Marx items. If you want to start collecting 6" tin on a budget, I recommend picking up a few of these!
First up, the not-so-common #694:
I wanted to start with the #694 because it is the earliest Marx caboose - of course, the Joy Line cabooses do predate it. The #694 with Joy Line couplers came out in 1935, with the change to Tab & Slot couplers happening in '36. The #694 changed again in '36 from a black frame with silver litho detail to just a plain black frame and produced into 1937.
Now, on to a few 556 cabooses:
A #556 with a red lithographed frame - these date from around 1937-'38.
Here is an early #556 caboose on a black frame with riveted Slot & Tab couplers. One way to tell if a #556 is early is to look at the door on the end – the early ones have a slot underneath the door, a holdover from the #694 with Joy Line couplers. Later cabooses did not have the slot under the door. This example would be from the 1937-'42 time frame.
…and my last #556, a later one with black plastic wheels and a twisted (sliding) Slot & Tab coupler. Sliding twisted Slot & Tab couplers were used from about 1938-’48, but plastic wheels were introduced in the late ‘40’s so that helps to date the car. Note the lack of the handrail/ladder on the back of the car… this is a typical clockwork set caboose, with sliding couplers, plastic wheels and no extra parts! Marx quit putting a coupler on the rear of the caboose, too. The windup sets were the low cost, entry level trains, so anything that wasn't needed was left off to keep the price down.
Finally, a couple of later cabooses that are definitely plentiful & cheap:
The typical Union Pacific #3824 caboose, made from around 1952 until 1972. Although there are a couple of uncommon variations (brown frame, yellow cupola windows), most of them look like this one. This caboose has punched Slot & Tab couplers and plastic wheels.
Finally, the NYC #20102 caboose, same basic era as the UP #3824. Again, there are some uncommon variations out there - like the one with a plastic "wedge" on the underside of the frame to throw switches automatically - but most of them will look like this picture.
Depending on when the various cabooses were made and what trains sets they were included in, you might find the same caboose with slot & tab couplers (riveted, twisted or punched) or plastic knuckle couplers. Wheels might be metal or plastic. There are a lot of variations out there, too. Once again, if you are serious about collecting 6” tin, I would suggest getting “The Definitive Guide to Marx Trains Six-Inch Tin & Joy Line” CD… it is a great reference!
I have a photo of the Brown Frame version of the Union Pacific Caboose pictured above that I can share,
Does anyone have any tips on how to post photos in the new forum yet? I tried to follow the instructions in my flickr account but all it posted was the html junk, Now I cant figure out how to go back into an old post & edit it. Is there a FAQ or something I am missing or is it just glitches in the forum?
Hi Rack776,
To edit your post, there is a small pencil icon in the lower left corner of each of your posts. Click on that, and you will be able to edit it.
To post a picture, highlight and copy the url of your picture... this is one from your previous post:
http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8448/7798981788_be335c13e7.jpg
Click on the "Insert Image" icon at the top of the text box when posting. It is seventh icon to the left of the smiley face, and resembles a polaroid picture with a + on the lower right corner of it. If you hover your cursor over it, it will display "Insert Image". When you click it, it will bring up a box that will prompt you to paste the url into it. Then click insert and viola:
I have found a few bugs in the new forum, but I'm sure they will get sorted out. This type of thing happens everytime a forum changes or updates their software. My previous post lost a couple of pictures and some text that I had to edit back in!
Looking forward to seeing your brown-frame UP caboose - that's one I don't have in my little collection yet.
Hey thanks for the help with posting the photos! You guys are the first in any forum to take the time to help me understand what you have to do.....not just "Use the search function" I appreciate it!
Lets see if the photo lesson works- WHOO HOO! It did.
Here is my partial set with the the brown frame UP caboose, it has sliding slot & tab couplers and plastic wheels (well 3 good ones and 1 broken one anyway ) I hope to complete this set with the proper track, Loco & wheel by digging for bargans at the local train show.
I edited my previous post above about the 7" Tin set so that the photos post correectly Check it out....anyone have any more info on that set or when it was produced?
Marx Punched Sliding Tab & Slot Coupler Plastic Wheel U.P. Caboose - Brown Frame Variation
Marx Punched Sliding Tab & Slot Coupler Plastic Wheel B&O Gondola
Marx Punched Sliding Tab & Slot Coupler Plastic Wheel U.P. Tender
Well thats all the Marx I have is this partial set and my 7" set above .
I'll be looking for more, I really enjoy the simplicity & lithography of these "toy" trains.
Keep the updates comming I like this thread, -Jason
rack776 Does anyone have any tips on how to post photos in the new forum yet?
Does anyone have any tips on how to post photos in the new forum yet?
apparently there was a bug in the posting software that would balk on "~" or "%7E" (hex for '~') in the URL. if this was affecting anyone besides me, it should be fixed now.
Marx Factory R&D Models
Back when I was visiting collections and taking pictures of trains I visited a collector who had a couple of the Marx factory prototypes. This car is a factory hand painted sample with a lady standing on the rear platform waving with a handkerchief in her hand. Her arm is coupled via a wire to an eccentric on the axle of the rear wheel. As the wheels turn her arm moves up and down.
Based on Matzke's first edition of Greenberg's Guide to Marx Trains it would appear that Marx made at least two versions of this R&D concept.
From pp. 44 "Bye-Bye Observation: This has to be the cutest model of all. A woman's figure lithograhed on metal (the car above, including the woman is hand painted), with a moving (articulated) arm, holds a tiny handkerchief in her hand which she waves from the observation platform. The arm is activated by a link to the U-shaped rear car axle to produce reciprocating movement in the link. The model is made from a standard six-inch red lithographed observation car with black and white detail mounted on a red and white frame, model year 1938."
Given that the above car is larger and completely hand painted it might be that the car described in the Matzke book was the next step in an attempt to move the car to production.
mersenne6 ... Given that the above car is larger and completely hand painted it might be that the car described in the Matzke book was the next step in an attempt to move the car to production.
... Given that the above car is larger and completely hand painted it might be that the car described in the Matzke book was the next step in an attempt to move the car to production.
this is a very interesting car as it seems to be the frame described in the newer Greenberg/ Matzke Vol I, page 40...
"... A group of passenger cars exhibited swivel trucks fastened to the car frame, similar to the six-inch, eight-wheel cars. Instead of two axles and four wheels per truck, each simulated truck had only two wheels and one axle...."
these cars were said to have been made to compete with the Unique Arts trains of 1949, so if this was an animated car, it was developed long after the red lithographed frames were out of production.
by the tie spacing of the track piece in the photo, i'm making this car out to be 9" (!) long. quite a monster compared to most Marx, but this is what the 7" freight cars that were finally decided on were all about. in that head to head battle with U.A., size is what mattered most.
The second car I photographed was this hand painted UP boxcar. It is the same car that is pictured on page 45 of the first edition Greenberg's Guide to Marx Trains. The text, at least in the first edition, is incorrect with respect to the the construction of this car. The text indicates there were two versions of this car (which there were) and that both were made of wood with one of the cars sporting hook and slot couplers (this one) and one sporting automatic couplers. The error is in the description of the construction. This car is all metal whereas the car with automatic couplers was made of wood.
The car is hand painted on both sides and the hand lettering is such that the sides are a very close match to one another with respect to lettering size, style and location on the car body.
mersenne6 ... The text, at least in the first edition, is incorrect with respect to the the construction of this car. The text indicates there were two versions of this car (which there were) and that both were made of wood with one of the cars sporting hook and slot couplers (this one) and one sporting automatic couplers. The error is in the description of the construction. This car is all metal whereas the car with automatic couplers was made of wood. ...
... The text, at least in the first edition, is incorrect with respect to the the construction of this car. The text indicates there were two versions of this car (which there were) and that both were made of wood with one of the cars sporting hook and slot couplers (this one) and one sporting automatic couplers. The error is in the description of the construction. This car is all metal whereas the car with automatic couplers was made of wood. ...
it seems like Greenberg corrected this in the 1989 ed. (Vol I) picturing both UP boxcars and stating one was made of wood and the other (the one you shown above) as all metal construction with tab&slot couplers. in the book, the wood version is shown with prewar one way automatic couplers.
mersenne6 Marx Factory R&D Models The second car I photographed was this hand painted UP boxcar. It is the same car that is pictured on page 45 of the first edition Greenberg's Guide to Marx Trains.
The second car I photographed was this hand painted UP boxcar. It is the same car that is pictured on page 45 of the first edition Greenberg's Guide to Marx Trains.
This couldn't get anymore ironic. I just read that book for the first time the other day, and was amazed at the amount of R&D prototypes pictured. I have been doing a lot of research to find more about some of them, but it would appear that the information is right in front of me! I must ask, do you own one of the three GG1 prototypes? I would love to know why they never put it into production. My other favorite is the 7 inch Marlines gondola with the cow on the side. I could imagine what they intended to put in that car. Milk cans? Tin cows?.....
I can't wait to see more!
shown here as a mixture of both 4-wheel and 8-wheel frames, clockwork sets typically topped out at 4 cars, though, larger electric sets included up to all 8 cars. smaller sets contained a random assortment of car names/ numbers so especially with the 4-wheel types, it often takes finding multiple sets to track down all the car numbers.
the 8-wheel versions were only available with tab & slot couplers never being offered with one way auto couplers. 4-wheel versions also had a fixed tab & slot coupler likely due to the clockwork drive being a reversing motor which does not function well with sliding tab & slot couplers. no lighted versions of these cars were ever made, either. and though Marx collectors would have liked to have seen an open vestibule observation car, let's face it, ...this was the Canadian Pacific and the majority of the year it's cold at those latitudes. even most northern US roads favored closed-in Solarium type tail-end cars.
from a collector standpoint, large, boxed and well matched sets generally command a premium price. as a seller with a single C7 condition car, you hope that there are two or more Marx fanatics out there who need that final number to fill in their collection.
Trevor, I'm sorry to disappoint but the two cars pictured are the only two R&D prototypes I ever had the chance to photograph. These cars, like most of the "trains" I have are nothing more than photographs. Way back, before the Greenberg books, I started putting together a photo reference library for myself with the main focus on pre-war American Flyer (hence the large number of posts over on Northwoods Flyer's Pre-War American Flyer thread). If there were non-Flyer items in a collection that caught my eye I would ask for permission to photograph those items as well. These two happened to be in a large general collection of pre-war everything-made-for-the-American-market which I visited almost 15 years ago.
When the Greenberg books started coming out I quit taking pictures since I assumed there would be periodic updates of the references - that was a bad assumption. Within the last year or two I've gone back to taking pictures but I haven't seen anymore Marx R&D items.
Besides the Greenberg book the only other pictures of Marx R&D models that I'm aware of were some pictures of the Martin and Osterund collections which were briefly featured in the October 1993 TCA Quarterly both as an inside article and as the wrap-around color cover.
I posted a link to this video on the Yahoo group, but I figured I'd share it here too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b_xlTbApYII
This goes to show that a whimsical toy-like layout can be set up in any amount of space. This is on my basement floor, and is pure Marx (even the track). It also demonstrates the usefulness of 3 and 5 tie track and they can be mixed to make track plans not possible with Lionel's track.
hokey smoke, Bullwinkle! a whole month without a Marx posting! ...got to do something about that! after Marx got rid of the inherited Girard Toy Company stock, the first truly Marx trains started to appear in 1935 with simple single color w/ black detail/lettering lithography and sitting on 4 wheel black frames with silver (though in most lighting appearing as white) details. except for the #552 gondola, all cars had sliding mounted "Joy Line" couplers. there were only about a dozen of these early car types and few are considered rare, but due to their short life of not more than a few years of sales and considering they were the first and oldest, to find them in better conditions can be a challenge. here are some trains i've managed to piece together.
to complete my passenger train, the early, green #1935 Mail Car adds a nice contrast to the consist. (and i'm very suspicious that the red and green livery mix was no accident!) other less seen variations of this car had red door guides and/or plain doors which are sought after by some collectors, but for me, the more common version is the best looking.
in this first year only the Commodore Vanderbilt locomotive was available to head both electric and clockwork trains, and since these have already been covered, we'll start at the tender in its most basic CV (551) shape. pictured is the more common black rivet-lithographed livery. probably the rarest of the silver litho frame cars is the all silver NYC tender which was usually paired with the equally rare silver CV locomotive. the early yellow #91453 C&S reefer is another example of a car where the graphics changed little, but had its color upgraded and renumbered as #555 in later years of production.
so far my small work train consists of the #1678 NP hopper, #552 C.R.I.&P. gondola and (550) NYC wrecker (which received an original replacement cable and hook shortly after this photo). again, all three cars would go on to be regular production '550 series' 6" cars in later years. both the hopper and gondola would be upgraded with multi-color details with all versions of the NP hopper graphic changing to #554.
for the picture, i slightly lowered the track clips that are unique to the wrecker frame. when rescuing a train on an adjacent track, these clips can serve to steady the car when the boom arm is pivoted off center.
i know i have a pretty nice #553 Santa Fe 'Middle States Oil' tank car somewhere, but so far that car has eluded my current inventory search.
I cannot believe it, but this is the 100th post so far. I would have never thought that so much information would have been added here, but I've been proven wrong. I'd like to thank Gary and James for sharing so much knowledge and so many pieces out of their collection. I think this is just a start a though, and there is so much more out there to be learned.
Keep postin'!
Since we're talking about the first Marx cars and sets from 1935 I thought you might like to have a picture of the clockwork set from that year.
Ok, time to add my !
This is a set given to me when I was 2 or 3 years old on Christmas 1959 or 1960 (can't remember)!
It's the "Tales of Wells Fargo" set. The set box is in poor shape but you can still read the price, $14.88.
Here is the Locomotive.
The Tender's lettering is not visible in the picture but it reads " Tales of Wells Fargo". Too much handling when I played with it I guess. Little did I know......
Passenger Car #1.
Passenger Car #3 (they never made a car #2 for some reason).
The set still runs great and there are a few litho buildings included. Sad to say I don't have the "rare" Jim Hardy figure.
mersenne6 Since we're talking about the first Marx cars and sets from 1935 I thought you might like to have a picture of the clockwork set from that year.
pretty set & don't ever mind seeing a rare CV type such as the green clockwork. no catalogs existed this early and most if not all Marx trains were sold as sets, with passenger trains solely based on the number of cars. it's hard to pick up from your picture, but n-coach sets did not necessarily have equal number of Bogota and Montclair cars, but could contain any mixed assortment. a Marx practice that was carried on to later passenger set types (eg, M10005 sets).
also of note for 1935, the early Joy Line track (with a very high rail profile) was replaced by the Marx low profile O27 track. with a new 90° crossover also offered, sets would either be offered as a basic oval or as a figure-8 configuration..
AF53 ... The Tender's lettering is not visible in the picture but it reads " Tales of Wells Fargo". Too much handling when I played with it I guess. Little did I know...... Passenger Car #1. Passenger Car #3 (they never made a car #2 for some reason). The set still runs great and there are a few litho buildings included. Sad to say I don't have the "rare" Jim Hardy figure.
this is one Marx got remarkably close for a toy model (at least to the original version since this locomotive went through a few different rebuilds in its lifetime). it's hard to pickup the numbers from this picture, but the Wm. Crooks is actually pulling a two car consist of Baggage car #1 and Coach #3 with window and door patterns very close to the models.
this tender type is often found with very weak lettering that was easily worn off with handling. Robert Grossman Co. does make a replacement transfer for both the '1st Div. St. P&P RR' or the 'Tales of Wells Fargo' lettered tenders. as an oddball one-off model from Marx, for cataloging purposes, the Baggage and Coach are usually listed under the 7" category.
being a cross-collectable as also a Marx playset, i've seen complete and boxed versions of your "Tales of Wells Fargo" set go for some major bucks.
Mersenne6, that is a wonderful set! Thanks for posting it. Gary, I really like your early cars - all of those are on my "Marx Wish List" as I only have a tender and a couple of Joy Line passenger cars for my swing-pegs to pull around. Ray, I enjoyed seeing your Wells Fargo set too. Great stuff!
I've been pretty lax about posting (here or anywhere) since it is Live Steam season right now, but as soon as the weather turns colder and I have the steamers winterized, I'll get more active on the computer again. Glad to see some activity on the Marx thread!
Gary, the set has two Montclair's, two Bogota's and an observation. Below is the freight set from the same period. The hopper car is interesting in that it was a bit of a rush job at the factory - it doesn't have a bin.
ah, the rare 'open bottom' hopper! and thanks for the #553 SF tank car pic. the only silver frame cars left to be pictured are the dual spotlight car and the #547 mail/baggage.
i wasn't as lucky in coach distribution with the blue Merc set i have which came with two Montclairs, but they're so well matched it would be next to impossible to find a similar Bogota coach. the most lopsided set i ever saw was a large boxed M10005 with 5 x Los Angeles coaches + the Squaw Bonnet obsv. ...perfectly legitimate, though.
....and if the "open bottom" hopper isn't odd enough, how about an upside down one?
with over 100 replies and into the 8th page, before this goes any further, i thought i'd take a shot at an index. it will be a work in progress but i tested a small segment and it seems to work ok. the nice part is that the links are referenced to the message # and not its position in the responses, so any editing shouldn't effect the links.
every response isn't indexed and if there are following comments adjacent to the link, simply scrolling down a bit should include everything. an index can probably be a little overwhelmingly useless if it gets too long or detailed.
============
Channel Track: (also see Disney) various Marx channel track trains Ranger Steel Products - passenger train Christmas Displays: 2011 - David Smith layout Commodore Vanderbilt: (CV) http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/p/207544/2272237.aspx#2272237 http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/p/207544/2272973.aspx#2272973 http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/p/207544/2271291.aspx#2271291 http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/p/207544/2271640.aspx#2271640 video custom CV Mercury (also see Misc): http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/p/207544/2283658.aspx#2283658 Red (batt) & Blue (c/w) Merc sets Disney: Mickey Mouse Meteor - 7" train Channel Track
The Joy Line: The Joy Line Military: Prewar Locomotives, 4 & 8 wheel 6" tin 2572 ramp car Erie-built FM: Seaboard Monon / Kansas City Southern Monon & KCS 7" cabooses 6" tin: mono color boxcars: B&LE, B&O, SSW, C&NW NYC Pacemaker boxcars Canadian Pacific Passenger (8wh) Flats w/ vehicles (562) and airplane (572A) + Automatic couplers Prewar Silver Lithographed Frames Prewar Red Lithographed Frames Cabooses
3/16" Scale: Freight Cars
Other Steam Locomotives: #994 & #898 comparison Sets: #526 - #401 clockwork locomotive set
#550 - CP clockwork locomotive freight set
#29154 - Lehigh Valley diesel freight set
#7650 - M10005 freight set
#10500 - Nickle Plate Road 7" tin clockwork freight set - 1 #10500 - Nickle Plate Road 7" tin clockwork freight set - 2
#25224 - #999 3/16" scale freight set (typ)
#54762 - Tales of Wells Fargo #56844 - #1829 Hudson set unkn - green CV passenger set - silver litho frame cars unkn - early CV freight set - silver litho frame cars unkn - Canadian Pacific 6" tin passenger train
Misc: wheel governor c/w motor whistling c/w (Mercury) & DC motors box top graphics (M10000; M10005, Cape Canaveral) Right-O-Way railroad signs small folding layout Truck Types Couplers: http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/p/207544/2286229.aspx#2286229 R&D models: D&H observation car UP boxcar
Great idea on the index Gary, !
As for the Tales of Wells Fargo set number I believe this might help.
Notice the price marked on the box!
Tales of Wells Fargo - 54762, check!
after playing around with font sizes and having a big issue with wysiwy(don't)g editors, i think i finally got a good, readable post for the index. i'll still play a little with the links to get most of the http text replaced by something more literal. interesting find in that clicking on the date of any post/reply will create a direct link and since it's message and not position relative, any post-editing will not effect the link.
it was actually a bit of a selfish task. trying to find one of my own replies yesterday, i had to look at 4 out of the 8 pages before i found it!
A small layout in my home office I built to be reserved for clockworks.
watch?v=DWsdhw2ra4&list=UU8zBJbKPYLt2RvdNu ZujQ&index=3&feature=plcp
wallyworld A small layout in my home office I built to be reserved for clockworks.
very neat! how about a few stills? i'd like to see your custom finish on those switches (i like the green base, don't know about the white detail... :). i have a feeling there will be at least one other fan interested in your turntable, also.
Hi Overland
Thanks. The turntable and bumper posts are made by Hornby, a U.K contemporary of O gauge Marx and can be had for a very reasonable price in various color schemes. The Marx switches were of course converted from three rail into two rail, as I wanted the layout to be as compact as I could make it. I have Hornby switches but the radius was just a bit too large without making the table less portable as it has removable legs and can be stored easily. The top is 1/4 " ply with acrylic painted "grass" and "ballast" What I like most about this is that it was both inexpensive and fun to bring about. The paint for the switches was applied in prewar colors after stripping them clean. Ties painted brown. The green is known as "apple green." The stanchions are painted a concrete color . I just got my camera back from the wife..Ill try to post some later. I just don't want to sidetrack the subject too much. The train stop in front of the station is a Hornby track section ( wide ties) as the double semaphore. The turntable was repainted with whats called fleckstone, a textured paint. Hope this answers your questions.
My first electric train was a Marx given to me by my Uncle Joe Baber when he returned from WWIII. I(n 1952 my father switched me to American Flyer where I stayed until 1998 when I moved.
I now collect marx and enjoy it very much!
David Barker My first electric train was a Marx given to me by my Uncle Joe Baber when he returned from WWIII. ... I now collect marx and enjoy it very much!
My first electric train was a Marx given to me by my Uncle Joe Baber when he returned from WWIII. ...
"That doesn't look like the Marx set I had."...
one nice part about collecting Marx are the number of different niches in which one can specialize. compared to the 300+ page Lionel price guide, the Marx version takes only 1/4 of that many pages to cover at least half a dozen different categories with even more divisions within those.
one of the most distinctive Marx types is surely the 3/16" scale line. with the late 30's push for more realism in model trains and the release of the Gilbert Flyer Tru-Scale in 1938, Marx must have felt the pressure to produce a low-cost train based on actual prototype equipment. there is evidence that the development of these cars started ~1940. the choice of 3/16" scale kept the car width close to the 6" tin line which i've got to imagine was also a tooling consideration. dimensionally (to everything but gauge) and graphically, these cars were quite accurate and prototype examples have often been cited.
having already touched on truck and coupler types, pictures here will display a variety of B (scale) and D (high) trucks as well as both metal and plastic couplers. along with the one prewar year, scale sets were produced until the late 1950's when Marx shifted the term "scale" to their new HO line.
probably the most recognizable motive power of Marx scale sets was the #999 steam loco, but a variety of locomotives, both diesel and steam, can be found in legitimate sets. hopefully some sets will appear in replies, but for now i'll try to cover the major freight car types.
starting at the head-end, the versatile wedge tender took on a few forms for this task.
overlandflyer Marx collectors will probably notice a glaring omission to this scale freight car group. a while ago i constructed a display of refrigerator cars for a local museum group, and when it came time to remove it, the Marx Pacific Fruit Express (PFE) reefer found its way to a quite hidden location i have yet to stumble upon. so for now, this is the best i can do...
Marx collectors will probably notice a glaring omission to this scale freight car group. a while ago i constructed a display of refrigerator cars for a local museum group, and when it came time to remove it, the Marx Pacific Fruit Express (PFE) reefer found its way to a quite hidden location i have yet to stumble upon. so for now, this is the best i can do...
I have you covered Gary
Easily one of my favorite scale cars. Although I don't have any of the 3/16 scale passenger cars, I have about 80% of the freight cars.
Now how about all the locomotives that were sold with 3/16 scale cars? I know of quite a few but there probably are others I didn't know came 3/16 sets.
after scanning a few other forums within this train network, i've got to wonder if some people here think there is a limitation of 550 pixel width for images posted. i often click on a photo, which is in fact limited to 550 pix width while viewing the inline posts, hoping to see a larger version only to see the same 550 pixel width image again.
i remember seeing a "maximum width = 550 pixel" notation in the old forum system that is no longer evident in the new forum, but even at that time, i was referencing larger format photos with no problem. i'm sure with most flat screen monitors not pushing retirement age, 700-800 up to 1000-1200 pix wide images are not going to be a problem even if a little scrolling is called for. without going to extremes, i like a picture have enough resolution to address the key features its intended to show..
Thank you for all of the information posted to this thread by so many different contributors. I have enjoyed reading each of the posts. I can appreciate the research, work and time put into producing each entry. I have learned a great deal by reading this thread. I know very little about Marx, but I can tell you I will recognize a number of things when I see them now. I have also been tempted to dabble in collecting some pieces of Marx. Well to be honest I've been temtped to the point of buying some items.
This is a group of equipment that I bought. Did I actually buy a recognizable set?
Northwoods Flyer .... Did I actually buy a recognizable set? ... The #999 engine runs well and has lots of pulling power. Part of the reason that I bought it is because I really like the Pacemaker color scheme. I don't have much Marx but I'm happy to make a contribution to your effort....
.... Did I actually buy a recognizable set?
unlike some other manufacturers who's yearly catalogs specified exact set configurations, Marx sets seem to be more free-form often at most only stating "4 car freight train" or "3 car passenger set" in advertisements with the contents only vaguely being described. many of these #999/ wedge tender headed sets contained a boxcar, gondola and tank along with either the Reading or NYC caboose. some of these cars, as i mentioned, are seen a bit more often than others, but aside from the two or three i described as being less common, i wouldn't consider the majority of the 3/16" scale cars very hard to locate.
actually the number of commonly available scale cars works out to be a very convenient number. although the #999 is indeed a great little puller with the standard 4-5 car set, when you get closer to 10-12 cars, the drag of the consist will start to strain the #999's ability with a noticeable loss of traction starting around that length consist. and even if you get all those axles well cleaned and lubricated, 15+ scale cars will start to challenge the holding ability of the automatic couplers.
for the most reliable operation, keeping freight trains at 8-10 well maintained cars as a maximum load is a guideline i try to follow. don't forget, Marx locomotives are meant to top out at ~12vac.
Northwoods Flyer This is a group of equipment that I bought. Did I actually buy a recognizable set?
I'm not too good with remembering set numbers, but that is a set I definitely know. What you have is a postwar 25249 set. I personally have that set, in a way it kind of got me into 3/16 scale.
Thank You gary and Trevor,
I appreciate any information that I can get about the items in my collection. I like the 3/16" line that Marx produced. In size it reminds me of the American Flyer S gauge equipment that I have collected and the lithography is really nice.
Questions: Are all of the items in the 3/16 scale line pictured (or at least described) in the previous posts? It is definitely a manageable amount of examples. Did Marx actually produce consumer catalogs as Flyer and Lionel did, or were they strictly catalogs available to dealers and large accounts? I haven't heard of anyone being a Marx paper collector.
I did a search on eBay of "Marx train sets" and I can see that as gary says many of the sets have a similar configuration; mainly of 3,4 or 5 cars.
While these are not the best photos I have picked up several more of the Pacemaker cars. I think they make a nice consist, and the #999 has no difficulty hauling them around the Blueboard Central.
Northwoods Flyer I am experiencing a powerful urge to add these lithographed cars to my collection.
I am experiencing a powerful urge to add these lithographed cars to my collection.
tjl0824 I'm not too good with remembering set numbers, but that is a set I definitely know. What you have is a postwar 25249 set. I personally have that set, in a way it kind of got me into 3/16 scale.
though the Greenberg Volume III, Marx Sets, is far from a comprehensive listing, it does hint at a bit of organization among what otherwise might seem to be random set number assignments. within those number ranges, the 25xxx sets seem to have the greatest number of (A), (B), etc entries which were created when identically numbered and well documented sets proved to contain similar, but different pieces. whereas one set might contain the NIAX tank car, another might have a Shell tanker, or a UP boxcar might be substituted for the NYC Pacemaker.
i have no doubt Trevor's 25249 set is original, but if someone were to show me a 25249 set with a NYNH&H car as the set boxcar or a NKP rather than the B&O gondola; a set they'll swear they've had since they were a kid, i wouldn't doubt them, either.
probably why i prefer collecting cars rather than sets. out of ~ two dozen 3/16" scale cars on hand, i doubt if there is an original set i couldn't put together. alternately i can make up two trains, a work train and a goods train and pretty much show off the entire Marx 3/16" scale freight car line at once.
Northwoods... nice start at a scale NYC Pacemaker unit train, one of my favorites that i put together with the 6" tin NYC cars from time to time. one of these days i'm going to get the hang of making videos.
[edit: interesting... when you put an "A" or a "B" inside brackets, it makes a & , ...good to know; a test i did for other rebus doodles - here]
While on the topic, here's a video of some of my 3/16th scale
watch?v=9kLUsnl5E6g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9kLUsnl5E6g
Here are some Marx items I bought last year for one of my daughters. It's a mixed lot but when put together looks nice running around the tracks.
Since I don't have a great book to identify them all maybe someone can fill in the blanks.
locomotive # 400 ca. 1953-54.
Tender?
Hopper #554 ca. 1935-40, 1946 & 1950.
Gondola #91254 ca. 1957.
Caboose # 20102.
My nephew this weekend bought the same #400 locomotive however it's a wind-up with the "Rubber Bulb smoke puffer". You place baby powder in it and instead of smoke you get powder.
Just a thought. On some of the cars, you will notice it on my Gondola if you blow it up, there are the words and numbers NEW 1-57 and BLT 1-57. And since as I have mention my reference books aren't great but does this indicate when it was actually made? I have seen different numbers on other cars following BLT before and was just checking.
Thanks,
AF53 Here are some Marx items I bought last year for one of my daughters. It's a mixed lot but when put together looks nice running around the tracks. Since I don't have a great book to identify them all maybe someone can fill in the blanks. locomotive # 400 ca. 1953-54. Tender? Hopper #554 ca. 1935-40, 1946 & 1950. Gondola #91254 ca. 1957. Caboose # 20102. My nephew this weekend bought the same #400 locomotive however it's a wind-up with the "Rubber Bulb smoke puffer". You place baby powder in it and instead of smoke you get powder. Just a thought. On some of the cars, you will notice it on my Gondola if you blow it up, there are the words and numbers NEW 1-57 and BLT 1-57. And since as I have mention my reference books aren't great but does this indicate when it was actually made? I have seen different numbers on other cars following BLT before and was just checking.
it probably is a pieced together set, but not really that far off. the #400 is usually paired with a 4-wh plastic tender, but what you have is a (3551) sometimes referred to as a notch tender due to the formed metal shell shape. i may have mentioned this notation before, but often when i refer to a car without a visible number, but one that had a known catalog number, i will tend to enclose that number within parenthesis. i also just corrected an error in one of these numbers having recently referred to the scale wedge tender as a (551) instead of (951). frankly i hardly ever use that particular number as most Marx collectors simply refer to that piece as the "wedge" tender, named for its wedge shape when viewed from above.
but the #400 was sometimes combined with 6" tin consists and is found with the 20102 NYC caboose in many sets. fortunately you also have the NYC version of the (3551) tender (also made as UP), so again, it does look very passable as a valid Marx set.
the Seaboard gondola was, in fact, made in 1957, but i'm not all that sure it would be a good rule of thumb to always trust the printed Built/ New Date. you have a red Seaboard gondola and although all versions are numbered 91257, it can also be found in blue and brown.
the #554 NP high sided gondola is also an interesting 6" car as it is easily noticeable as the same graphic as the #554 NP hopper but likely a cost-cutting step in producing the easier to construct gondola.
the #400 clockwork with smoke is a very nice find if it still works. many of the bulbs in those became brittle with age and are usually found nonfunctional. i don't believe replacement bulbs are available.
Marx 6" tin has to be my favorite of all the Marx types with the car variations running into the 100's. a few of the 6" boxcar and reefer types have multiple numbers which makes putting together some unit trains not only possible, but fun to run and listen to all those metal wheels hopping down the track.
one annoying glitch with the operating doors on some of these cars, however, is their tendency to gradually slide open while in motion. sometimes it's only one side, but after a few minutes of running, practically the entire train will have open doors. getting tired of this operation, i came up with a near-zero cost solution...
happy trails...gary
My father has a working, boxed, channel track freight train "NYC" 5151 engine. It must be the larger set as it has two coal cars and the two on the the unmarked cars. You mentioned these would be very rare. How rare are they and what are they worth.
My father says he has taken this to multiple people and they had never seen one before.
Gary Lane (glane0813@gmail.com)
firelane My father has a working, boxed, channel track freight train "NYC" 5151 engine. It must be the larger set as it has two coal cars and the two on the the unmarked cars. You mentioned these would be very rare. How rare are they and what are they worth.
channel track ref.
the train or at least pieces of that train come up for sale occasionally, but i've only seen the track a few times and have never seen a complete box. i have a suspicion about the transformer included as it was probably the same as the electric speedway set.
it sure would be nice to see some set pictures; box, etc(?) ...or a video?
as to value, there are a few things to consider other than the condition. Marx doesn't have the collector audience that Lionel or Flyer have and being a channel track train narrows down the field even more. it's also very hard to predict what a single rare item will bring. just knowing it's a complete, working train and assuming a moderate C6-ish condition has to put it in at least the few hundred dollar range as a low estimate, but where it could go from there with the right audience would really just be a guess at best.
one thing i would check, if you can lift the locomotive body off the frame... given enough time, if the flint facing the sparking wheel is worn down completely, the wheel will eventually grind through the metal holder. you want to avoid that happening.
How do you wire a Marx 495 electric locomotive with two postition reversing unit?????
Mine was in parts and I'm trying to get it to stop burning...
as simple as Marx electric motors are to work on, with their compactness and wire routes that take advantage of the natural voids in the design, they are equally as difficult to describe in words. by (495) i assume you are referring to what is generally known as a CP (after Canadian Pacific) type. the easiest thing i could suggest is to look around for a perhaps cosmetically challenged, but working example, swap the motor out of that one, or use it as a guide to rebuild your original piece(s). everyone needs at least two locomotives, right?
overlandflyer as simple as Marx electric motors are to work on, with their compactness and wire routes that take advantage of the natural voids in the design, they are equally as difficult to describe in words. by (495) i assume you are referring to what is generally known as a CP (after Canadian Pacific) type. the easiest thing i could suggest is to look around for a perhaps cosmetically challenged, but working example, swap the motor out of that one, or use it as a guide to rebuild your original piece(s). everyone needs at least two locomotives, right? cheers...gary
Thanks... Do you have a wiring schematic I could use or a spare CP engine lying around???
tinplatacis overlandflyer as simple as Marx electric motors are to work on, with their compactness and wire routes that take advantage of the natural voids in the design, they are equally as difficult to describe in words. by (495) i assume you are referring to what is generally known as a CP (after Canadian Pacific) type. the easiest thing i could suggest is to look around for a perhaps cosmetically challenged, but working example, swap the motor out of that one, or use it as a guide to rebuild your original piece(s). everyone needs at least two locomotives, right? cheers...gary Thanks... Do you have a wiring schematic I could use or a spare CP engine lying around???
Does anybody know what this set is worth??? It's Lionel, but since most of my Marx cars are modified for use with Lionels, just wondering...
Says it's outfit 501, has a NW-2 #610, boxcar #X6014, gon #6012, tank #6015, caboose #6017
I do love Marx as my first set was a Marx during Christmas sometime in the WWII period. Of course it was pre-war, but my father and uncle made sure I had one.
I purchased the new Marx price guide, when they first came out. But is does not give values of sets. I have several mint in the box Marx sets, both plasitic and tin, all 3/16" scale and no way to accurately value their worth.
Greenberg published a Marx Sets book in 1991, but it has never been updated and though many sets can be found in that text it is far from a comprehensive list.
Marx did very little promotion to the public but rather relied on stores to advertise sets through their own catalogs, so unlike Lionel and American Flyer, there were no yearly consumer catalogs. on top of that, Marx did not generally advertise sets with specific cars. a 3/16" scale steam set was usually composed of an engine, tender, boxcar, tank car, gondola and caboose. just exactly what freight cars were included might depend on what cars were on the shelf the day the set was boxed and shipped.
Marx cars also tended to be made for many more years than Lionel or Flyer. and with a total inventory being a small fraction of what Lionel produced, sets are not generally as collectible with Marx. for example, in 3/16" scale, for all the years of production, there are only about two dozen freight cars, total. with two or three locomotives and the two cabooses, i have the ability to put together any scale set Marx ever produced.
many of the valuable Lionel or Flyer sets obtain that status due to a piece or two only being found in one specific set. aside from a few examples, this was generally not the case with Marx.
that is not to say that boxed Marx sets are valueless, but whereas a complete boxed Lionel set might add an additional 40% or more to merely having the train alone, with Marx, in most cases, you're probably only looking at another 10% or so. as with most sets, they do tend to pick up a little more value with age. that is, having a box for a prewar set would be much more desirable than a boxed 1950's set, but again, nothing like i've seen people value boxed prewar Lionel.
In this day and age, one resource we do have available to help determine value of an item is online auctions, ie, Ebay and the like. If you can find an item that is in similar condition to yours, watch the auction and see what it sells for. Obviously, this approach has its limitations, but for items that are at least somewhat common, it will give you an idea of the value. Don't forget to factor in shipping charges as part of the value. One thing to be wary of is the "Buy It Now" prices - the seller can ASK any price they want, but finding someone to PAY that price is another story. We have all seen common, everyday items on BIN at a ridiculous price. The auction at least shows what someone was actually willing to pay for an item, backed up by the fact that someone else was willing to pay almost as much.
Selling prices at train shows or regular auctions may be different than what you see online. For one, I am willing to pay more when I see an item in person rather than in pictures - no surprises, I can see everything I want from any angle, up close & personal. Also, I don't have to pay shipping charges at a show, so I am willing to pay that much more for the item. Rare items at an auction may command better prices than online for the same reasons, but also because there may be more promotion resulting in more bidders that are serious about buying the item, established provenance that is available for examination, and the fact that an auction house is putting its reputation on the line for the authenticity of the item.
In the end, it's like an old friend of the family used to say, "A thing is only worth what two fools can agree on.." :>)
Wow what a great thread, I have been away for a while but will be getting back to addressing my Marx tinplate layout, which I will be rebuilding slightly larger this winter (hopefully). I sold off almost all my non-marx or non 0-27 stuff in my O collection to make room for a few more Marx pieces.
Here is my layout:
watch?v=jzpSJi8 QRk&feature=share&list=UUrUkVNWoC7txLnsbdfOQFgA
Have fun with your trains
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