Ballast for My Layout...what to use??????

[ChiefEagles]

Saw Buckeye's layout Sunday. His is small bits of rubber. Gets on track or in gears, no damage. Neat.

[Anonymous]

I use grit for bird cages. Its made of somekind of compressed paper but looks and feels exactly like scenic express medium gray granite ballast. Very hard, very grey and the perfect size. It costs about $3.00 for a five pound bag. I mix iit in a ratio of 3:1 with the 'real' stuff from Scenic Express (though you cannot tell the difference between the two by looking at it).

You get more variation in color by mixing with the scenic express offerning (which is about $7.00 for a half pound) - the scenic express is a slightly different shade of gray (a little lighter).

Only down side is that the bird litter is scented and so far the scent is still slightly noticeable (after six months).. Its not a bad smell, just a little bit like Glade air freshner. You have to put your nose close to the track to notice.

The stuff works easily and dries as hard as a rock when glued in place (i use matte medium heavily diluted and sprayed on). I had NO success with pouring on a mixture of glue/water as it tended to cause runouts in my carefully prepared ballast.

I tried to find "starter" chicken grit but in this part of Texas the local feed store doesn't carry it - in fact they thought I was crazy asking for it. They only had one type of grit and that was was too large for scale.

Good luck.

[Anonymous]

I also used black roofing granules as asphalt for railroad crossings. It matched the black roofing material with embedded granules on it that I used for roads on my layout. A 10' x 8" strip cost me about $6 at Home Depot. I layed the roofing material on top of corrigated cardboard to give it a little height and then used the black roofing granules on the side of the roads to hide the cardboard, and give depth to the road.

I plan on using a very watered down greyish color to age the road.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by cconoverjr

Boy, I wish I had checked out these ballast ideas before I spent a small fortune with Woodland Scenics for their ballast products! I really like the idea of using the granules from shingles.

Better late than never. [;)][:D][#welcome] to the forum. You never know where that next great idea will come from. If you have a question , don't be afraid to ask!!!

[Anonymous]

Boy, I wish I had checked out these ballast ideas before I spent a small fortune with Woodland Scenics for their ballast products! I really like the idea of using the granules from shingles.

[Big_Boy_4005]

This has been a fun and interesting topic, and I feel that we have exercised it thoroughly. This is what the forum is all about. Sharing ideas and information.

My layout is large enough to try them all, and I very well may.[swg]

[Allen Jenkins]

Now Big, I know you would use protective (surgical) gloves, to do the handy work, heck I use surgical gloves to reply to the sticky polls! Eye protection, gaunlet leather gloves, head protection, (I recommend ED Bullard), Steel-toed shoes, unless you work with high-voltage, -then,non-canvas leather tree-stand boots, (Bass Pro-Shop). However, no brake shoes used in the United States of America, are made of asbestos. And anyway, I'm referring to steel brake drum dust. My challenge is to eliminate the worry about conductivity-the ability to transmit or convey electrical energy caused by a "completed circut." High resistance(R=Ohm), is in play here from rust, micro-size, and low voltage. Thanks Big_Boy, for your understanding of all things, Model Railroader, Enjoy Your Hobby! ACJ, See you in Cinci, next year!

[Anonymous]

Thanks for all the advice and input. I went with roofing granules which were just what I was looking for.

Thanks again,

Mike

[Big_Boy_4005]

I seem to be particularly full of stories on this topic . Here's another one.

I bought a house that was built in 1922. The original cast iron, coal fired boiler was still in the basement when I bought the house. It had been converted to oil, and subsequently to natural gas. It was covered with a layer of something white and dusty, as were many of the pipes leading to it.

Of course I wanted this old monster out of the house, but when I was told what it MIGHT be and what it would cost to have someone remove it, I took it upon myself to do the clean up. I soaked the material so as not to kick up any dust and carefuly bagged it and got rid of it. And we all lived happily ever after. THE END.

Now I'm curious, what are railroad brakeshoes made out of???? Even if brake shoes and pads do contain asbestos, that asbestos is only part of the makeup of the pad or shoe. Do the dangerous fibers actually become airborne as they wear?

The bottom line when it comes to this ballast idea is, I would be more worried about getting a metal splinter than any asbestos content.

As with anything in life, care, understanding, and common sense go a long way when it comes to health and safety issues. The reason so many people died from asbestos exposure in the past was clearly due to a lack of understanding. Now we understand what happens, so as long as we exersise care and common sense, we should live long and prosper.

Cigarette anyone?[:O][banghead][sigh][;)]

[Allen Jenkins]

Roll on Bigun! When I post, you may read several times, for days. I'm 46, and have a reputation for not lying. Now, I drove a truck, for twelve and one-half years, so I may answer your question with what you need to know, but I shan't do you wrong. Or lie to you, 'cause I have to give answer for everything that I say, one Day! My traffic scenerio stands, as anyone who has ever ridden a passenger train knows, when you stop, the internal, and external air flow is forward in the direction of movement. This means at a traffic light, what you thought was "new car," was actually breaklining wear. Of course, the drums themselves are made of cast steel. Washing the steel dust, created by turning the brake drums on a lathe, not only cleans the material of all contaminants, rust is produced, which cancels out any electrical conductivity. And weathers the material. I think a spray of adhesive on the ballast, properly seals, the stuff forever, however, a long time ago, I mentioned using a magnet to remove any excess material. How on earth did we get this far? ACJ.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Gee Bob, maybe we need to have a topic entitled "The Hidden Dangers of Model Railroading". I wonder if there were any injuries or deaths back then, that were attributed to things made by any of the toy train manufacturers. I suspect that there might have been, which is why we have the rules and regulations that we have today. That is one way that electrical and building codes evolve, accidents. At least we learn from our mistakes.

You look good in green, and I see that you and Tony V. are almost in perfect sync. Must be something in the water today. [swg] Congrats to Tony, too.

[lionelsoni]

The scariest items I know of are the prewar Lionel reducers, which were produced in 110 and 220-volt versions. Depending on which way you plugged them in (plugs were not polarized until much later), you had an even chance that the toy-train track rails were connected to that voltage. I own a 110-volt model 107, which has the additional relevant distinction of being insulated with a slab of asbestos.

[lionelsoni]

Thanks.

I'm afraid I haven't a clue what its conductivity is. I'm not too uptight about asbestos and treated lumber. But there is some small risk; and I think everyone should know what that is and make his own judgment whether the material is worth using.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Interesting, thanks Bob. Over on the MR forum we were recently discussing lumber, when someone raised health issues associated with pressure treated lumber and also oriented strand board (OSB).

I'm afraid that our society has become conditioned to a knee jerk reaction when it hears words like asbestos, arsenic, lead, cadmium, etc. Yes, these things and many others can have long term health consequences when handled improperly, or with long term exposure.

I think we need to apply a little common sense here and say that while the brake shavings MAY contain a small amount of asbestos, the health risk posed by using this material as ballast is very low. The real danger from asbestos, as I understand it, comes when airborne particles are inhaled and become caught in the lungs. With careful handling of the loose material, and avoiding any dust from it, the actual danger should be almost zero.

As Allan said in his earlier posts this material needs to be washed and sifted before being glued. Once glued, all of the material is sealed, and inert.

This brings us back to my original concern about electrical conductivity, especially when used with traditional track. Allen says that the material has a very high resistance. OK Bob, this part should be right up your alley!!!!

By the way Bob, 3 more posts, and you get green stars.[8D] Congrats in advance.

---

As long as we are on the issue of asbestos, there was an interesting topic over on the MR forum earlier this year, in which model railroading practices from yesteryear were brought up. Some of the practices of old were pretty scary.[:0]

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=14702&REPLY_ID=122361#122361

[lionelsoni]

This guy says that some asbestos is still being used:
http://www.aa1car.com/library/trtu796.htm

[Allen Jenkins]

Great! My first awakening to this age old fact of coal fired steam locomotives, was on the Swannee River Steam Special, back in the late eighties. The flier suggested goggles, to I brought the clear plastic kind that fits over regular glasses, with the head strap. The Atlanta & West Point #290, a heavy pacific, was on the point, with twenty-two cars. The Norfolk Southern mainline allowed for trackspeed running, and so the vestibule ride gave me my first experience having a facial sandblast. Also, on the ballast thread, someone advised against brake drum shavings, by reason of hazards of asbestosis. As I said, back in the late seventies, I worked as a welder-mechanic on fertilizer trailers. One of my tasks, was to pull the duals from the hub, using the axle-nut, wheel jack method, removing the assembly intact. We then removed the old brake shoes, and replaced them with new shoes, etc. So natually I asked my shop forman about the asbestos factor, and he told me that he would never subject anyone to anything which would risk their health. And that no vehicles had used asbestos brake linings in years. Yes, asbestos is a serious hazard, no, today's break shoes are 100% asbestos free. If vehicles used asbestos break linings today, the highways would have everyone gone, each time a vehicle applied the breaks, multitudes would breath the dust into their lungs, even with the windows rolled up. You can smell the presently used lining material, at any intersection, or exit ramp. At any rate, washing screened metal shavings will only make the material rust all the more, increasing the electrical resistance, and "weathering" the material to an appropriate texture! Enjoy Your FreeFerroFacimally! ACJ.

[Big_Boy_4005]

Funny you should mention coal cinders and sandblasting. Back at the beginning of July I rode behind Milwaukee Road 261, and that was in the title of my topic about the trip.

http://www.trains.com/community/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=18216

Those walnut growers have it made, nothing goes to waste. They sell the nuts, and turn around and sell the shells too. [swg]

[Allen Jenkins]

Thanks, Big_Boy_4005, your right! It's great to visit an industry, and find items usable for the hobby. My greatest concern was that larger scale layouts would use a higher grit size than my "little" HO world. However, the occasional occurance of scale size material turning up is my objective here. Dave had a gift of gab, and explained every disagreement, enough times to be thoroughly quized, and never mentioned a comprimised circut. He 'oft recommended the use of braked drum dust, and so it is for me to pass on the tip. Thanks for the tip about the sandblast shop. I worked as a trailer mechanic on Killebrew fertilizer trailers, in the late seventies and they used coal cinder as a sandblast material. Your post reminded me of this. I'm sure sifted coal cinder would work well. Also Dave Muller and I discused the use of crushed walnut shells. This material is used to clean the turbines of jet and helicoper engines. The United States Air Force started this practice back in the dayz of the UH1B Huey helicopters, during the Vietnam Conflict. However, it is widley dissused that the supplier for crushed walnut shells is practically unknown. Thanks! Allen.

[jonadel]

Chicken grit--No. 1, can't be beat, $3.95 for 50#--check it out, don't spend more for something with a name.

Jon

http://jands.logicalgeek.com

[Anonymous]

To the poster who recommended using "shavings from turned brake drums...

Not only would you be introducing conductive material into/onto your layout
that could get into motors, cicuits, etc., but if these shavings are from USED
brake drums as from a shop or service station turning machine, you would
be introducing a CARCINOGEN onto/into your HOME in the form of ASBESTOS
shavings that would be embedded onto the surface of the drum, hence the
reason for turning it. (To renew the braking surface and true the roundness
of the inner drum.) This is NOT a good idea! The mortality rate from
ASBESTOSIS and/or MESOTHELIOMA is 100%! It only takes a small quantity
of asbestos dust to permanently contaminate the linings of your lungs! There
is NO reversal to this exposure! DON"T DO THIS! There are too many other
materials that are safe to use to choose this!

One such alternative is aquarium gravel. Right size, right color (can also be
colored by you if you wish), non-conductive, non-carcinogenic, bonds well
with all glues. This stuff is similar to "chicken grit" or the "parakeet gravel"
for bird cages. Probably would be a better bulk price by getting either the
"chicken grit" or "aquarium gravel".

Not meant to scare, flame, or criticize...just to alert you to a HazMat situation.

Be safe...Have fun.

[Big_Boy_4005]

OK Alan, I'm still a little skeptical, but I'll take your word for it. As for where to find screens to make sieves for sifting, the local hardware store may have a better selection than a large home improvement store. A place that sells sandblasting supplies may have a good selection, or grab the yellow pages and use your imagiation.

Speaking of sandblasting, we have an interesting supply house here in the Twin Cities, that stocks a rather odd selection of products. I originally went there for Hydrocal, a gypsum product, similar to plaster only harder, used for scenery. When I went there and looked around, I found that they stocked rubber molding compounds and casting resins, and sandblasting grits. One of the more interesting looking products was walnut shells. I never tried it, but it might make a good ballast too.[:D]

Always keep your eyes open, you never know where you might find that next great product for your layout.

[Allen Jenkins]

No, the circuit completed, is only in your mind. The resistance is so high, and the amps so low, that the push from the low voltage wouldn't fry a fly. Now if you jumper 115 volt AC, off the wall,...but...anyway, yes, a Boy Scout layout I used to enjoy, had this material. The grit is so fine, and the metal is so rusty, (weathered?), and the item is so readily available, all you have to do is figure a micro-screen to acheive scale size. And just think of the witty conversations you'll have! Just Like The Good Old Daze! acj.

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BillFromWayne

BigBoy:
A couple of different manufacturers offer roofing granules. They come in either drums or sacks and are available for separate sale through roofing distributors. It's extremely inexpensive.
Great for a club or a group of O-gaugers to chip in together to buy as there will be more than enough to go around.
Bill

Bill, 3M makes them right here just outside St Paul. As a matter of fact that plant will be represented on my layout. One of the members of the club worked for 3m and had access to the stockpiles, so whenever we needed some, we told him and the following week there was a 5 gallon bucket full. My layout is large enough to make use of a few bags of them. Now all I have to do is find where to buy them.[:p][:D]

[Anonymous]

BigBoy:
A couple of different manufacturers offer roofing granules. They come in either drums or sacks and are available for separate sale through roofing distributors. It's extremely inexpensive.
Great for a club or a group of O-gaugers to chip in together to buy as there will be more than enough to go around.
Bill

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BillFromWayne

I found a great inexpensive source for ballast can be found at any large commercial roofing supplier.
The product is roofing "surface granules", which can be found in many color shades. It's available in large bulk containers at a very resonable prices.
Hope this helps.
BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

Bill, that's actually what the club I mentioned above used for the rest of the layout. 3M makes those roofing ganules, but I never realized that they were available loose after they left the shingle manufacturer.

[Anonymous]

I found a great inexpensive source for ballast can be found at any large commercial roofing supplier.
The product is roofing "surface granules", which can be found in many color shades. It's available in large bulk containers at a very resonable prices.
Hope this helps.
BillFromWayne
www.modeltrainjournal.com

[Big_Boy_4005]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Allen Jenkins

Dave Muller, recommended to me, to use the metal dust from shops which turned brake drums. There is plenty of that, and most any automotive brake shop would let you cleanup the waste, after all, they'll throw it away. Sift it as you would to acheive the grade of ballast you wish, and apply as you would any other material. Use a magnet to collect the unglued material. After all it weathers well, as it assimulates a railgrime covered roadbed! Enjoy Your Hobby! ACJ.

I hope you are joking with this suggestion. You are talking about introducing an electrically conductive material near the rails? Have you tried this on your railroad? I certainly wouldn't!!!

[Allen Jenkins]

Dave Muller, recommended to me, to use the metal dust from shops which turned brake drums. There is plenty of that, and most any automotive brake shop would let you cleanup the waste, after all, they'll throw it away. Sift it as you would to acheive the grade of ballast you wish, and apply as you would any other material. Use a magnet to collect the unglued material. After all it weathers well, as it assimulates a railgrime covered roadbed! Enjoy Your Hobby! ACJ.

[nitroboy]

Try paver base from Home Depot. Its the stuf that goes under brick patio pavers. You will need to sift it to get the right sized ones, but its cheap, and real stone.