NOT IMPRESSED with Lionel's new catalogue

[Anonymous]

Is it just me; or could this catalogue been 50 pages shorter by just showing the NEW stuff and not the old stuff too.??

I guess some dealers still have GS-2s and GS-64s Or was this re-printed because the flyer was nice Or to sell the passenger cars??

OK already with the Acela; it says it is "sold out" so why make some of you out there more miserable because they missed out or don’t have an extra $2K handy.

And WOW a GG1 like MTH's with moving pantographs... well I guess they did have it first with the ACELA

Gosh don’t we have enough Christmas trains and cars already. How big is your tree?

And talk about self promotion... what is it with the Neil Young Train... It is nice there is an Elvis set to offset it . Makes me think that some new Lionel Recording artists are in the making for 2005 like the Backshop Boys or maybe the Chuff-in-Syncs, or a new teen-girl singer Berkity Shires. I understand at 18, she's still a virginian.

Alan

[ben10ben]

Overall, I wasn't too impressed either.

The GG-1 does look impressive, though. This is the first O gauge GG-1 modeled with the later high mounted air intakes that were installed after a massive GG-1 failure in the '50s. Also, I think that it's the first in any scale to have a smoke unit :) :).
Also, the pantographs can be activated from the CAB-1, as opposed to the simple opening ones of MTH(which all Lionel GG-1s have had, as well).

[brianel027]

I've only looked at the catalog on line... I always like having the hard copy to make a real complete assessment. But some immediate observations... yes, there are many repeat items from the first edition catalog. In fairness MTH and K-Line both do the same thing, so Lionel is not alone.

I think the opening statement is an improvement over the past couple. But I also think overall Lionel is still catering to the established, well-to-do adult market, despite a few offerings otherwise, like the Thomas Set and the Polar Express set. Prices are still ridiculously high - not that there was any indication that they would be otherwise. $60 for an operating car like the aquarium car is one thing; $60 for flat car with a tractor on it is totally obscene.

Previous statements from Lionel have indicated concern with the collector market, the after-sale market and stabliization of these prices. Lionel should just worry about making and marketing quality affordable trains. I don't doubt for a moment that the high prices on things like the postwar reissue series are intentional to prevent contributing to a substantial drop in collector values on the orignal pieces. I also don't doubt that Lionel is also using "selective pricing" with the intent of using product from long existing, paid for dies to help pay for the many new items that are being made from new tooling and dies that hasn't yet seen a return.

The "Greendale" Neil Young set is an obvious "T-bone" to the collectors. The rest of us get "mashed potatoes." I suspect your typical run-of-the-mill Neil Young fan doesn't have $600 to drop on a Lionel train set. Far more would have been accomplished by making a more affordable set in larger numbers that might appeal to new customers as well as train collectors, and even Neil Young fans. What's next... Neil Young concerts in Vegas at $300 per seat??

I wonder if anyone at Lionel has actually listened to the "Greendale" album... Greendale's this small town that seems to have more problems than prosperity. I wonder if there's a Lionel value-added dealer there in Greendale? There is a sign that says "Leaving Greendale." I get the impression no one in Greendale has the $600 bucks to blow on a train set. I mean, Earl Green is gonna have to sell a painting first before he considers buying something like that. And though Sun Green is more concerned with saving the planet, I'm sure she's not too happy about American jobs going overseas... she's not gonna sell much art either if no one can afford to buy it. Betcha Sun Green would like the idea of getting the train set by purchasing the CD instead of the other way around. But Sun Green is young... one day she'll see it ain't about the environment - it's about profits and the bottom line. Oh well, business as usual... "Hey Mr. Clean, you're dirty now too!"

Same goes for the cartoon Simpson's cars which are way over priced. There's no shortage of Simpson's related items at Wal-Mart and at much more reasonable prices (D'oh!!) ... these are the Simpson's items that people will buy. I doubt even Homer Simpson would spend $60 on one of those cars unless he'd just left Moe's. Lionel missed the train by not making a SpongeBob Square Pants train set, which has way more appeal to kids and parents than do the Simpson's. But MTH is doing the SpongeBob stuff. But I bet Lionel would sell more with their name on the box (of course, depending on MSRP and advertising). Average folks know the Lionel name... they don't know the MTH name.

I think Lionel should concern themselves a whole lot less with the collector market and after-sale values and much more with promotion of their product to new buyers and making quality fairly priced trains. Although Lionel has the obvious name recognition advantage, many of their prices are higher than others for similar types of product... example: K-Line's Train-19 at $20 list with die-cast trucks; Lionel traditional starter set cars at $25 with plastic trucks.

I do like the brand new 14 inch U36B in CSX... very nice looking unit and finally, a modern road name on the low end (other than the Amtrak RS-3). I wish Lionel would finally start making these locomotives with quality in mind and put TWO motors in them. As they are with one motor and not much weight to them, they are poor pullers. I've had 2 value added Lionel dealers tell me these engines are not worth the money, but they stock them because some folks will only buy the Lionel name. One told me they were junk and to not expect anything other than a poor puller and that I could buy a better K-Line or Williams engine for less. I'm sure Lionel is aware of the "Lionel only" buyers and uses this as a poor excuse for sub-par comparison quality.

And with Lionel's low production costs being in China, it doesn't seem like too much to ask that we guys that can't spend hundreds of dollars on an engine could PLEASE have something that runs and pulls more than a few cars. Again, it shows Lionel is not very concerned with the type of buyer that once made them an American icon and a household name.

And though it wasn't mentioned in the catalog introduction this time around, the US economy isn't in the rosey shape some media sources and the current administration would have you believe. Not when unemployed folks (60% was the figure I heard reported) who are finally finding work, are accepting jobs that pay up to 50% less than what they previously made at their last job. Could this have anything to do with the overseas competition from manufacturing and outsourcing??? When folks can barely pay their essential bills, train purchases get crossed off the shopping list.

How ironic that Lionel trains, now made in China, are priced as if they were made in here in the USA at their imaginary midtown Manhattan facility. Or maybe even their former Greendale production plant.

I guess, once again, most folks buying Lionel product will be purchasing it from the large ad in the train magazine with the headline "Blowout Prices."

[Anonymous]

Very well written Brian. All excellent points. Sadly I think Lionel is beginning to price themselves out of the market. I am amazed that they think that high prices are not an issue for many modlers. It's easy for us to fix the cost problem though - just don't pay it. Model trains can't make money collecting dust on warehouse shelves. Eventually someone is going to have to be held accountable for the decisions that are being made in the corprate offices. Of course, out of the bad can come some good, maybe the market will open up for some of the smaller manufactuers like Williams an K Line. Dollars are still dollars, and with the economy the way it is, how far your dollars go is increasingly important.
As for the products, I was happy to see the PC G with the modification, but the price is way too high. The overland flyer set was right up my alley but again the price.... BTW I wonder if Lionel paid the copyright fee to UP for this one? The first catalog teased of many more Fastrack items that were going to be offered in book 2. I saw only one - a lighted bumper block. The remote control switches were shown in more detail, but how excited can one get about a switch?
What is the positive to come out of both Lionel' s catalogs this year? I 'll only have to budget a little bit of money for a few of their new products this year. 'Cause there isn't very much I am interested in at all.

[Anonymous]

I had hoped for more AEC/Space/Military items, but sadly there are none to be found[:(]

I found the stripped done scale diesels an interesting idea, will they sell[?]

-Tinplate Jeff

[ChiefEagles]

I looked through it twice [did not study it] but did not see the line of Lionmaster diesels but only steamers. My "train lady" said there were to many "repeats" and that made for double ordering from customers.

[spodwo]

I like the "Q" 0-8-0 but the price? Ouch for a switch engine. I will have to see what one looks like in the real world.

[FJ and G]

I think it might be nice to slow down the pace of new offerings (ouch, that hurts!).

W/lawsuits from UP/MTH and slow economy, not good to spread yourself too thin. Same advice for the other companies.

Good for hobbyists too, as they may take up custom painting or kitbashing.

Not advice, just a thought, looking at it from the flip side.

If anything should increase, I'd say it should be low-cost starter sets. Not hard to do; just package together existing pieces in different ways. No brainer there.

Dave V

[nblum]

My take is more positive. I think they're, more than any other manufacturer/importer trying to address the full range of interests in three rail, from whimsical operating boxcars to Disney and Elvis collectors, to Neil Young fans, to those who like $1,000 + scale locomotives, $25 and less starter O27 rolling stock, conventional and command engines, scale and not so scale (Williams doesn't have a $99 MSRP steam loco, do they?), operating accessories, conventional track, ballasted track, and so on. It's a diverse hobby and the catalog is diverse. So any one individual may only find a few items of interest. I'm only interested in the New Haven PAs, maybe the NYC FA2s, a few rolling stock and probably a few PWC items. I'd like to see some prewar or Standard gauge repros, but that appears out of the question.

I think they've addressed some of the complaints one hears such as not enough conventional stuff, 4 chuffs per revolution, more O27 type stuff, some O27 locos at decent pricing, more PWC stuff, and continued interesting, if pricey structures and accessories. They wouldn't be making this stuff if we weren't buying it :).

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: They wouldn't be making this stuff if we weren't buying it :).

After going through several LHS' here in the Twin Cities and surrounding suburbs, I would have to kind of disagree with that statement

In every one there is alot of excess stock in all price ranges. Looking at it from the perspective of not having alot of money-while I can find alot of rolling stock that is reasonable--you can't run it without loco's, track, and power. That is where the big bite seems to come in alot of the time.

[cheapclassics]

I just wonder if they are going to let Thomas the Tank Engine wither on the vine again as they have done twice before. They got off to a good start by putting couplers on Annie and Clarabel and three-position directional unit on Thomas, but there (so far) has not been any followup pieces announced. It would be an excellent way to get kids involved, but without at least more rolling stock, the set is a curiosity more than anything that can be built upon.

Keep on training,

Mike C. from Indiana

[Anonymous]

Would somebody tell me what is so horrible about Lionel repeating some things in the current catalog from previous ones? The postwar catalogs did it all the time. Maybe some of us passed on the repeats the first time, and this is a reminder that they are still available in case we changed our minds. Also, what about new people in the hobby who didn't see the previous catalogs?

Although there are not many items I want from the new catalog, repeating some things is no big deal to me.

Jim

[FJ and G]

Jim,

I agreed w/ you in my response.

The plus that you lightly touched on is that these are available to those who perhaps couldn't afford them at the time.

I think that with a few exceptions (such notable things as Gunderson stacks and tri or bi level open auto carriers--87ft), there are very few common and major items not available or if omitted, could be modified with a minimum of work or repaint.

I do agree, however, reg. putting in Acela & saying "Sold Out" (as reported above but haven't personally verified)

The sky has not fallen.

[prewardude]

QUOTE: Originally posted by nblum
I'd like to see some prewar or Standard gauge repros, but that appears out of the question.

I agree with you, Neil. As I stated on another recent thread, it seems to me that Lionel could do a heck of a lot more with their product line than they are. Let's face the facts: MTH has it all over Lionel when it comes to prewar reproductions. I've bought almost all of the prewar repros that Lionel has done over the past few years (Hell-Gate bridge, #840 power station, etc.), and they were all outstanding products - and they had the Lionel name on them! But alas, it seems that Lionel doesn't want to commit to continue to produce these items. Oh well - Lionel's loss is Mike Wolf's gain.... again.

[tschmidt]

Having just seen it online and not in person I thought the catalog was ok. I was hoping to find two things that were not there. One was a work caboose or some kind of matching car for the new TMCC crane cars. I was looking for one to match my Santa Fe. I was also hoping for a station sounds car for either of the 2 ACL passenger trains that were previously released. ( The silver or purple sets)...or a 2car add on set for the purple cars.

The good news on prices is that if I preorder any car from my local dealer it will be at a discounted price.

I guess I'm one of the those who prefer Lionel over other makes. Maybe I am just old fashioned.

Tom

[Anonymous]

ok for some of you who dont mind the repeats, but my catalogue shelf is heavy already.

For the record, the list below gives the pages in the Polar Express cat. then the repeated pages in Volume 2 with a running count of the repeated pages:
.
Polar Exprs Vol 2 TOT REPEATS
pages 4,5 pages 6,7 2
6,7 8,9 4
8,9 10,11 6
10,11 11,12 7 Elvis is new
12,13 16,17 9
14,15 18,19 11
16,17 22-25 13 new xmas boxcars
18,19 32,33 14 new RG set
22,23 34,35 16
30,31 36,37 17 new acela details
34-37 38-41 21
40-41 44-45 23
43 46-47 25 expanded pictures
42 48 26
46-47 50-51 28
48-49 49 29
Special Flyer 54-55 31 GS2 GS64
52-55 58-60 33
56-63 62-67 39
74-75 80-81 41
76-87 82-91 51 the word NEW is used in both
96-97 96-97 53
99 99 54
106-109 106-109 58
116-117 142-143 60 train orders buldg on page 138
TOTAL REPEATED PAGES=60

That's 60 pages repeated of a 188 page cat. (1/3 repeated) and some of it is already out.

I think that One third without counting the usual track and transformer stuff that is always repeated is excessive.


Alan



]

[brianel027]

Items being repeated in catalog releases I guess is a matter of opinion. Jim is right that this has been done in the past. Then there was the period of the "Traditional" and "Collector" catalogs, then the Book One and Book Two (smaller catalogs without the repeats). Since we've entered the period of the 100+ page catalog, I don't think anyone wants to be left out of the fray.

For us more knowledgeable train guys, we notice this kind of stuff. But as Jim also mentioned, I'm sure there are folks who will see Volume One and may not see Volume Two. Since the train companies don't do mainstream national advertising, the catalogs serve not only to illustrate the product line, but to also generate excitement and publicity.

I will agree with nblum that Lionel does have probably the most diverse product lines. In the case of the lower end cars, others may have more affordable product, but Lionel has continued to expand the line and change road names frequently. The MTH Rugged Rails line has had zero additions since it's inception other that some cars available in sets only. And K-Line's Train 19 line has also languished in roadnames and new offerings.

In the case of the Greendale set, this isn't for Neil Young fans, even if it is a Neil Young train set. It's for die-hard train collectors who are looking to sta***he set away and watch it increase in value. To them, "Heart Of Gold" has a lot more to do with Fort Knox than with looking for love. Believe me, I've been to loads of Neil Young concerts and don't see many folks who are gonna spend $600 on a train set. The fact Lionel is only making 500 of them proves my point. The die-hard Neil Young fans are still waiting for "Time Fades Away" on CD and the long talked about, way over due Neil Young Archives Collection.

Maybe Lionel should do a "Closing Down the Amercian Factory" Train Set: Flat cars with boxes, equipment and containers heading off to the west coast for the boat ride to China. There could be a separate sale passenger car full of unemployed American workers. There could be a hobo camp accessory only instead of hobo figures, there could be some homeless families with kids.

But just because Lionel (or anyone else) is making product, doesn't mean it is selling. In the 14+ years I've been back in the hobby there have always been blowouts and price reductions. But years ago, it was product that was at least a couple years old before it was being blown out. Now you can see blowout prices on product during the same catalog year it was released... sometimes only months later. I see more and more product being advertised at deeper discounts. Don't kid yourself... NO ONE (not Lionel, K-Line, MTH or anyone else) would be selling train product at 40-60% off list if it was selling well at regular prices in the first place.

Simple reality folks... there are too many high end, expensive scale-sized trains being made today by too many companies with far too few buyers. You don't need to be a mathematician to figure out this spells disaster. As many train guys as there are... with as many going to scale trains as there are, they simply cannot buy as many trains as the various companies would hope for.

And neither MTH or Lionel is going to let up since they are both in a do-or-die struggle for industry domination with eachother that's being fought in the catalogs, hobby shops, YORK and in the courtroom.

In all the recent articles relating to sales, Lionel has said that sales on starter sets and related starter set items are moving up. One might think this is where the focus and attention should be. Instead of using the same old tooling to produce the same old starter items at minimal production costs inorder to help subsidize the tooling investments of the scale end of the hobby. Keep in mind, that with Chinese labor, Lionel's labors costs are cheaper than they have been in decades! I'm sure executive salaries haven't gone down as much.

Even with the much hearlded FasTrack, the only thing a young family can do with the current 40inch diameter curves is have an extended oval on a 4'x8' typical layout. Traditional 027 and O tubular, K-Line Snap Track and Atlas O all offer more layout possibilities on a 4'x8' layout. Yet all the talk is on offering FasTrack in yet larger diameter curves, even though the track was supposedly developed in mind for starter sets and first time customers.

Retail price matters. I'm certain that the discount mailorder places sell out of their allotments before the small local dealers do. It's only when folks can't find the item they wanted from the discount mailorder place, that they reluctantly shop the smaller local dealers. Even then, they try to talk the small dealer down in price - I've seen this happen - even though the mailorder customer price was probably less than his own dealer wholesale.

The model and (do I even dare use this word) toy train business ain't easy these days. It's tough to please everyone as witnessed on the train forums. But that said, I see a few things I like, but those items are at prices (and/or quality levels) that I will not pay for, especially when others make products for far less money.

I like the Lionel U-36B (from the MPC-era tooling) but considering the price and only one motor, I could potentially buy a Willams GP-9, or a K-Line Alco or MP-15 or S-2 for the same or less and get more for my money. With it's die-cast trucks, even the single motored Williams Centercab Swither is a better pulling engine than the current Lionel U-Boat.

Well, all that said, Lionel and the others can do as they darn well please. They can all issue two more catalogs every year if they want to. They can cheapen the low end even more and raise all the list prices to help pay for their lawsuit costs. They can make everything true to scale dimensions with the minimum FasTrack diameter of 6 feet. It doesn't mean they're going to sell more trains though. Oh, and the new unemployment figures came out for my neck of the woods and they're all UP from last month!

I'm personally waiting for the catalogs to be issued in Chinese and Indian languages, since they're getting many of what once were Amercian jobs, maybe they'll want to start buying some trains?

[3railguy]

Yes, the catalog has a lot of repeats.

Lionel has been getting lots of requests for a scale GG-1. Mainly from those of us who have a TMCC operating system. No DCS for me. One operating system is all I need.

[FJ and G]

John,

I agree that one operating system is enough for some of us. I'm using DCS and look more to MTH for products compatible. It's a shame we don't have a standard operating system like everyone else (DCC).

[Roger Bielen]

Over the past few years the 2nd edition of the cat. has repeats that many are items that have yet to be shipped from the 1st edition. Hopefully they eventually do show up. The items I'd be hesitant to pre-order are the ones using artist renderings captioned as "concept". they may never be made.

Agreeing with Brian with jobs going overseas the market for the high dollar items has to be shrinking, I for one, having been downsized into early retirement, no longer even think about big bucks items.

[FJ and G]

no longer even think about big bucks items.

-------------------------------

!!!!!!! agree

Sorry to hear you're a "statistic" on the downsize

[Anonymous]

Five years ago I began working weekends in a hobby shop the sells everything, RC, Games, Models, etc. When I got to the store, the train department was a collection of mostly inexpensive RTR HO items, and we had "THE" Lionel car. (We had exactly ONE Lionel car in the inventory!) I talked managment into stocking a few Lionel sets and accessories for the 2000 Holiday season. We sold every Lionel set we had, and had to get more from our distributor to meet demands. Now we stock and sell several Lionel sets during the season, and a lot of people who had previously bought sets come in to buy added cars, track or accessories.
A huge part of our success is the wonderful catalogs that Lionel puts out every year. The people that I see (usually seeing their first ever Lionel catalog) are amazed at the amount of offerings, and do not seem to be put off by the cost of the beginner sets. Moms who come in the store do a lot of the purchasing, and the Disney items, Christmas cars, and other cute items are very popular. Also, we have a lot of this group of customers who will upgrade their purchase from the Penny Flyer to the NYC Flyer because they really like the the addition of the Railsounds.
I also see a lot of older guys who had Lionel when they were kids. A good portion of them are amazed that Lionel is still around, and the most common comment I get about the current catalogs is that they remind these guys about the catalogs they had when they were kids, and again how neat the trains still are. A lot of these guys end up buying sets for themselves or for grandkids. A trend I see with this group is purchasing sets that are a little more pricey...(Hobo set, Train Robbery Set, etc). Another occurance is that as soon as people see that we sell Lionel, a lot of old postwar trains come out of retirement (especially during the holidays). We sell a lot of track and accessories to these folks. We could not keep enough Fastrack in the store last year...seemed like everyone wanted at least an oval. All the wives or mothers had to hear was the part about keeping oil off the carpet, and the track went out the door.
From my perspective, the catalogs do a great job of introducing the hobby to newcomers, and for renewing interest in people who had trains when they were kids. About this time of year we are bombarded by customers who want to know when the new catalogs will arrive. In four years I have never had a customer say that they were disappointed with the catalog...even the folks who end up not buying trains still seem to be very impressed by the catalog and the product it presents.

[Anonymous]

Gary

I started this thread NOT to advocate that LIONEL stop issuing catalogues; My intent questions that 1/3 of the items offerred in Vol 2 were either offerred in Vol1 before Or are already sold-out.

Your customers would be equally impressed if they either saw Vol 1 with Vol 2 and no repeats or just saw Vol 2 with no repeats of the items in Vol 1.

If your intent is to just impress new customers then just keep copies of all their catalogues so you can show newbies what Lionel has done before.


Alan

[Dr. John]

I looked over the on-line catalog today. I must give Lionel credit for listening to the American Flyer fans by reissuing the AF docksider and offering a new Mikado. The docksider is a bargain at $99.

As for the O gauge offerings, I saw a lot that I liked and a lot that did not appeal to me. I'm an old-school traditionalist and wi***here were more post war type offerings. It does seem that Lionel is trying to provide products that appeal to the broad spectrum of O gaugers.

[nitroboy]

Just got my catalog, and really, not impressed too much either. What I REALLY liked was the Fastrack switch controllers. Man, those things look sharp!!! Hope they will take my old O22 switch controllers in on trade for some of those!!!

[prewardude]

Yeah, those switch controllers ARE nice! You're not the first one to mention those, Dave. Too bad that the one thing that seems to be grabbing everybody's attention are lowly switch controllers.

[Anonymous]

Doesn't anyone think it is ironic that the Neil Young "Greendale Train" has in its description that Greendale is a "sanctuary from corporate greed."? Look at the price of this set & other products in the hobby by Lionel & tell me that Mr. Young doesn't have his ideals messed up.

I'm here to have fun, not buy in to hypocritcal political statements while draining my pocket book. About the only thing this train might be good for is another place for aging hippies to sta***heir weed.

[Anonymous]

Here's my two cents worth on this matter,,,Tech stuff is great!, I use command,I grew up in the 60's and into the 70's I like pre war, post war, I have alot of MPC stuff,,,,I like it too!!!
But the thing I feel thats missing from the Big L is the ability to work with is the Advertizing and hands on market that use to bring the train to the kid, and the kid to the train.
There seams to be an Errogance to the non $1,000 folks that in my book is where most of us started.
I know for a fact that Richard Kughn himself found his first set in the trash!
I bought my big box of stuff for $5.00 from a kid I ran around with.
And what kept me in the game was the basic stuff ,,,Milk car,Log car,Mail car,Coal loader,
Yes this stuff is out there now but there is so much more that could be done that's easy and fun and not expensive,I'm not sure if Lionel's not interested or they 've stopped thinking like a kid but it's a shame,Staying grounded is always a good thing for any company!!!

[Anonymous]

I might buy Hans the Polar Express set for Christmas. I hope he has his layout built by then.

[Anonymous]

If you all hate Lionel so much, why even look at the catalog.