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022 Screwed????

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022 Screwed????
Posted by srguy on Sunday, June 12, 2011 7:41 PM

Rerouting some track this weekend and wanted to"flip" the motor on a Lionel 022. First screw was removed, the second apparently has very little slot left in the head and won't turn at all. Managing OK with the motor in this position but would prefer it on the other side. Any suggestions?

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Posted by lionelsoni on Sunday, June 12, 2011 9:00 PM

You can sometimes get such a screw loose by gripping it with a pair of small, sharp diagonal cutters ("dikes").  The idea is to dig into the side of the head at two points 180 degrees apart with the jaws parallel to the shaft of the screw.  Then, keeping considerable pressure with the jaws, to turn the screw.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by servoguy on Sunday, June 12, 2011 9:29 PM

Let me suggest another method:  Set the switch upside down on some blocks so that the nut that the screw is in is resting on a block.  Then put a screw driver in the slot of the screw and smack it with a hammer. This is a tried and true method for removing stuck screws.  Start with light taps and test the screw between taps.  You don't want to overdo it.  I would caution you against trying to remove the screw by force.  I broke one off years ago doing that.  The nut is either brass or zinc and it is not possible to drill out the broken screw.  The screw is a 4-36 which is not standard although they are still available.  Another thing that you can do is clean up the slot with a cut off wheel and a Dremel.  However, once again I caution you against breaking the screw off.  This is why I recommend a drop of oil on all the screws when you reassemble anything.  

Bruce Baker

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Posted by cwburfle on Monday, June 13, 2011 4:48 AM

I wouldn't worry about breaking off the screw head. The "njuts" are replaceable, and should be available from just about any Lionel parts vendor.
I beleive one of the "nuts" is underneatch the nameplate on the switch body. So you would have to remove the nameplace to replace it.

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Posted by Roger Bielen on Monday, June 13, 2011 6:24 AM

A last desparate measure would be to try and get a small "easy out".  I picked up a set at Sears years ago and they've come to the recue a number of times.  I don't know how small they are available.

Roger B.
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Posted by gunrunnerjohn on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 7:58 AM

One question would be which screw is it?  If it's the one where the nut is under the ID plate, you'll have to take that off to remove the nut.  As mentioned, those are easily obtained from parts suppliers, I have a bunch of them from broken switches in my parts box.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 8:07 AM

It just occurred to me that the screw may not be a 4-36.  If someone replaced the original screw with a 4-40, that might explain why it's stuck.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by srguy on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 9:31 AM

Not the issue .... the slot in the head is essentially gone and no matter what size screwdriver I've tried, I can't get enough "bite" to move the screw. I haven't work on this one yet but will get back to the forum soon. I'll see what I can do to create a slot to provide some grab for the driver.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 10:43 AM

I didn't mean to imply that speculating on how it got stuck helps to get it out.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by srguy on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 10:51 AM

Always appreciate your input ... just wanted to clarify.

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Posted by gunrunnerjohn on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 12:31 PM

I'd like to know who the brain surgeon was at Lionel that decided to use a non-standard thread for their older stuff!  At least MTH with their modern stuff that's made in China still uses standard SAE screws for stuff like tender bodies, etc.  Good old 6-32 screws for that purpose. :)

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Posted by lionelsoni on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 1:39 PM

Screw standardization has come a long way during the history of Lionel.  I doubt that a 4-36 screw seemed all that non-standard when they designed it into their "older stuff".  Even the 25.4-millimeter inch on which the 4-36 and other such screws are based wasn't standardized until 1959.  Before this century is up, I predict that the non-metric screws in today's trains will be cursed for being non-standard and hard to find.

Don't misunderstand me--I like inch fasteners.  That's one little reason why I prefer old Volvos to new-fangled metric American cars.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by cwburfle on Tuesday, June 14, 2011 6:40 PM

While not common today, 4-36 certainly is (and was) a standard ASME thread.

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Posted by srguy on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 8:34 AM

Mission accomplished!!! Thanks you all for the suggestions which in principle made sense but in the end did not work. It looked to me like the previous owner forced the screw in place and in doing so stripped the slot in the head by tightening.  In trying to reverse the process there was nothing left on the head to grab. Banged, sawed, picked etc. and could not get that bugger to move!! What to do now??? Took out the drill and went to work on it and after a few minutes the head broke and spun right off. Never did get the threads out of the fitting but was able to flip the motor and secure with one screw.  Will pick up a replacement fitting down the road but for now all is good. Thanks again.

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Posted by gunrunnerjohn on Wednesday, June 15, 2011 6:30 PM

You can drop a standard hex nut in the hole on the other side and secure it with a screw for better reliability. I did that before I had some spare "special" nuts.

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Posted by cwburfle on Thursday, June 16, 2011 6:14 AM

You can drop a standard hex nut in the hole on the other side and secure it with a screw for better reliability. I did that before I had some spare "special" nuts.

Good idea!
Just as a point of information, the Train Tender gets 60 cents a piece for the O22-69  special 022 nuts.

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Posted by srguy on Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:25 AM

Thanks for the tips on the hex nuts but since the functional aspects of the switch are sound I should be able to pick the part up here in NJ when the local shows roll around in the fall. Good ideas ... glad I posted.

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Posted by gunrunnerjohn on Thursday, June 16, 2011 8:27 AM

I second the recommendation for The Train Tender, that's where I got a supply of those for the switches I've been rebuilding.  I fire off orders to him regularly for parts, great guy and excellent service.

 

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Posted by servoguy on Friday, June 17, 2011 10:59 PM

During WWII, there was a reduction in "standard" threads.  There were too many different thread pitches and some were eliminated.  I had an old Mueller lathe some years ago that had 1/2-12 bolts on it.  I had to make the replacement bolts.  It also had a 15/16-18 nut on the end of the lead screw.  I had to make that also.  I used the axle nut from an early Ford and bored it out.  

Bruce Baker

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