A Topic for Discussion!

[Anonymous]

I have the new Lionel catalog & I haven't opened it yet, but I can remember seeing TMCC equipped locos in past catalogs in the $300 region. Has Lionel kept the lowest TMCC engine prices at that price point, or have the prices come down at all? I only have 2 years worth of catalogs to compare.

I understand that Lionel's strategy right now is to keep TMCC a premium feature, in that everything over a certain price point has it. I think the reason for the high prices at the top end is simply scale detail and the increased cost of tooling associated with that & the increased number of manufacturing steps to put on all of the separately attached parts.

The market for the scale pieces just isn't as big as the market for the lower priced stuff. The prices are so high that most of us just pass on those items. Or we wait for the blow-outs.

I'd like to see starter sets offered for under $200, but that probably isn't going to happen.

You have to wonder why the manufacturers keep glutting the market. I know they get their price when dealers / distributors purchase their inventory, but how can the dealers make their money if they have to cut prices in half 6 months after they buy their inventory?

As Brian said, a heckuva way to run a business.

Tony

[Anonymous]

brianel, if we are to bring new people into the hobby we must help them get through the sticker shock. I am more than willing to sell older tmcc stuff for a lower price than i paid for it. I'm not a collector nor do I use my trains for an investment. When i purchase a new automobile I don't expect to make a profit on it when I sell it five years down the road. Have people join TCA or other clubs that always have used items for sale. I don't think I will live long enough to have current production trains increase in value the way that the old trains do. New trains stay on the market alot longer than they did in the past. If you want one of those high end engines , have some fun and put a little money away and over time before you know it the money will be there.

[brianel027]

The last comments shed some interesting light here... prices are not coming down at all on a MSRP level, say for a special promotion, or the engines that K-Line does for the KCC (basically a loss-leader, but an effective tool to get people to try K-Line product). Prices are coming down on a wholesaler/dealer level through sales, price reductions and blowouts because the stuff isn't selling, or isn't selling fast enough.

On a similar note, folks are selling stuff for half of what they paid for it, not because they really want to, but because that's all they can get for it. In some cases it's because the item has an older version of the electronics and folks want the newest version.

But aside from that, there are just simply too many trains out there for sale, and the market buying trains cannot absorb them all. Prices are down on nearly everything in the after-sale market. And to the disappointment of the train importers, I think the days of where folks bought two of everything in a catalog (one to run, one to stash away for retirement $$$) are long gone... too many companies, too many catalogs.

Computer technology in trains is fun, if that's what you prefer. It's really a matter of choice. I can see the benefits on a large layout. But it is still not essential to still have a good time running trains. The big difference between the hi-tech sorts of things we all use everyday, like computers, DVD and CD players, telephone answering machings, etc. is that this stuff SELLS in the millions. That's what brings the prices down on that sort of stuff... quantity and lots of it!

The initial development of any new product is expensive, but if a company knows they are going to sell a ton of them, they know they'll recoop their costs pretty quickly.

The train biz here is a whole different story. MTH spent several million to develop their DCS... who knows if they've seen a return yet... I suspect not. Lionel has had TMCC for over a decade, plus they do licensing of TMCC. But Lionel is also doing a catch-up game with the other companies, and spending a lot on new tooling. This is what the adult market is demanding. Plus we have the unknown effects of the lawsuits - so who knows what's going to happen. Nevermind Lionel's long history of being more expensive than the competition.

But I'm certain any price reductions in the near future on command type engines will be out of sheer necessity, and not out of generosity or a new trend in lower prices. And unfortunately, when a newcomer looks at a train catalog, sees the prices and puts the catalog down in shock, this hurts growth of the hobby. That newcomer doesn't know what we all know... that if you hang on 6 months to a year, those list prices will be cut in half from some mailorder place who is dumping inventory on unsold trains.

Stupid way to do business if you ask me. Better to ask a reasonable list in the first place and possibly sell more and reach new customers, than to condition seasoned train collectors to wait a few months for the blowouts to start being advertised in the train magazines.

[Anonymous]

ezak, go for it. TMC and DCS are great. It adds alot of fun to running trains. Prices are coming down and better yet, alot of people are willing to trade or sell an engine for half the original price. The steam sounds are the best in my opinion . You can turn the sound down or off using the hand held controller. To get started TMC is the least expensive and only requires one wire to hook up. DCS is more money to get started but it is truely state of the art and alot of fun.
Regards
romiller

[daan]

Normal AC engines, because I like the Ozon and the noise of those. Also because new engines are not in reach (not only money-whise, there almost no new stuff in europe on 3 rail american 0 gauge) but most of it because I enjoy finding an engine on garage sales, fleamarkets or trainmeets which can run again after TLC.
I love the toy-part of it.
(But then again, may be sound could be nice oneday)

[eZAK]

Yes 'Red' !

That is a great deal for the Lionel SD-80 mac, w/ all the bells and whistles,
from http://lots-trains.org/

If anyone is interested go to the above link. The deadline is 9/30.

[Anonymous]

Great topic. I just got into TMCC last fall and built a shelf layout which essentially requires a CAB-1. I've operated trains my whole life and am impressed with the sound and quality of the Railsounds. The old transformer is still good for my kids around teh XMAS tree, but the TMCC on my new layout is wonderful.

I also find most TMCC engines around $200-$300. K-Line Collectors Club has a great engine every year for about $250 with TMCC. L.O.T.S. is offering a beautiful SD90 for about $350, so the deals are out there, you just have to look for them!

[eZAK]

How about this idea?

A manufacture comes up with a hand held controller shaped like an X-box controller
(or actualy using a X-box wireless version) and an interface that connects between the track & trans.

All for $100.

Or FREE If you buy 'Doom 5; The Train From Hell'

[brianel027]

Tony (vitable), your explanation makes 100% sense except when you are talking about the 3-rail toy train business. Lionel's prices are still high, even though their production is in China where the houly wage is equavalent to 50-65¢ per hour. Lionel's prices today are still high even when you do an inflation index comparision from years ago.

Even with all the competition, Lionel's prices are still the industry standard for "too high." A quick glance at the competition shows nearly everyone else who is making trains can make better product and sell it for less money.

So I for one, do not put too much faith in TMCC prices coming down much. In the past 14 years that I've been in the hobby Lionel's prices have done nothing but constantly go up, with quality going down (single motors on starter diesels instead of two, plastic frames on the Alco instead of sheet metal, chinsey plastic frames on box cars instead of sheet metal or a thick plastic frame as with Industrial Rail box cars, plastic armatures on die cast trucks, many non-painted cars, etc, etc.) until very recently.

$60 for a Lionel BNSF or NS flat car with a CAT tractor... they gotta be out of their minds at Lionel!!! Even at a typical mail order discount, $42 is still too much for these cars. This is why I and so many others have bought K-Line, Industrial Rail, Williams, Railking and others. It's not out of dislike for Lionel... it's out of admiration that someone else can make better quality trains at lower prices!

And on the scant few things where Lionel has offered incentives, deals or price reductions, it is ONLY because of the stiff competition from others. Even in John Brady's statement in the OGRR magazine from a few months ago, he seemed to be more concerned about the after-sale collector market (and seeing Lionel prices holding their own on the collector market) than in dropping list prices in order to reach a much larger train buying audience.

And time will only tell how the $40M judgement against Lionel plays out. In other words, don't count on any price reductions from Lionel.

I wonder how many Chinese workers at 50¢ an hour can actually afford to buy the Lionel trains they are making???? Not many I bet, even if they were as interested in them as we are.

[Anonymous]

I beleive the statistics that were quoted on page one of this thread showed that more operators run conventional layouts than command control layouts now. This isn't news to anyone.

My point is that as time goes on, the prices on command equipped locos & accessories will decline. Electronics & CC will eventually find its way into everything. If you can upgrade an old loco for under $100 today, eventually you'll be able to do it for under $50, and then one day for under $25, etc. When prices for CC get that low, including CC in anything made is an easy decision.

Right now, there's a transition going on in the TV market. I know because I had to buy a new TV a couple of weeks ago. What I will call "old fashioned" TVs are still available & being made, but their days are numbered. Just about everything on the market now is at least capable of decoding an HDTV signal. The set may not be able to display the picture at HDTV standards, but it can at least make sense of the signal. Prices on true HDTV sets are still high, but declining. There will soon come a day when you can't buy an "old fashioned" TV. And you won't miss it.

Similar things have happened in other items we buy. You can't get a car without a rear window defroster/defogger, yet I remember when they were options on cars. Car stereos include CD players now, standard. Heck, I remember when an AM radio was an option!

I think Command Control is going to be included in all new trains of the future. Just when that day will come is not certain, but I'd say it will come within 10 years from now. And it won't add anything significant to the cost of the trains. It will be a case where the manufacturer throws it in because the cost is negligible.

Tony

[cnw1995]

I would love to be in the situation to spend some serious dough on trains, but like brianel and others, I don't have that sort of income - not that I'm anti- those of you who do! - with three kids, I can't even scare up $150 for a new train or accessory - so I may have a different perspective on the hobby That just makes the chase more interesting - and I try to look at it as enhancing my poor electrical and repair skills and using lots of 'found' objects on the layout. I find tremendous value in magazine articles like in the latest CTT that show-and-tell how to do something. I also consider myself fortunate to have a few old trains to run in conventional mode - I am thrilled to watch (he newest engines, but won't be joining that bandwagon...

[brianel027]

One thought to bear in mind as we voice our preferences here: most of us are die-hard train guys in one way or another. Not only do we love the trains, but we also take the time to check out the train forums like here or OGRR, and we probably get one or more of the 3-rail train mags in addition to some of the others on real trains.

It's been reported in the national media that this train hobby is one for middle class folks and folks who are basically older (a visit to any train show confirms this observation). Therefore chances are many of today's modelers have more disposable income they are willing to devote to the hobby (a quick check at recent train prices and detail level confirms this). Not many novices with kids or limited incomes are going to consider train cars that cost $60 each.

I am like Ben in the sense that I'm an odd one out here. I don't have lots of money to burn on trains. That my collection is as extensive as it is is testimony to my creativity in buying junk and broken cars and restoring them or converting them. The fact that the train market is very soft, along with the stiff competition from the companies, allows the bargain hunters to find deals where product is dramatically reduced. Believe me, K-Line or Lionel and others would not be blowing out prices allowing dealers to sell product at 50% off (and more) if the product was selling well in the first place.

All that said, the vast majority of train guys I know do not use any kind of computer control with their trains and many still use 027 track. This may not be the conclusion from reading the train forums, but I strongly suspect there are far more modelers out there who only buy a couple of train items a year and are far more conservative in their train purchases and traditional in the way they operate than would be believed by reading the train forums.

And since many of these modelers don't necessarily belong to one of the train forums, we probably won't really get an accurate reading of this "silent majority" here. Of the guys I know, I'm the only one who has posts on this forum.

[Anonymous]

Angelo:

You're welcome! I hear that Scotts Odds 'n Ends has 'em for reasonable prices.

Tony

[Anonymous]

Vitable,
I might have no choice but to put a supressor into my loop. The new trains coming have some sort of sound (not sure.. but the description said it was ?loco sounds?) Thanks for the tip Tony. I have to get one before the new set arrives. Angelo

[lionelsoni]

My wife's newest computer at home and a late-model computer at work.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by lionelsoni

Dave, some may be inconsistent; but I am a confirmed Luddite: I run DOS on my wife's cast-off computer at home. I use Q-Basic at work (GPS navigation design). I drive 1971 and 1962 cars. I replace the computers in my toy locomotives with electromechanical e-units. I would cut some slack for those who simply cannot find low-tech appliances. Does anyone make a TV without a remote or a car without computers?

In any case, chaqu'un a son goust.

Bob:

Wow! I'm impressed. What are you using to post to the forum?

Tony

[FJ and G]

Bob,

Sometimes you just can't beat the basics. Good going!

[lionelsoni]

Dave, some may be inconsistent; but I am a confirmed Luddite: I run DOS on my wife's cast-off computer at home. I use Q-Basic at work (GPS navigation design). I drive 1971 and 1962 cars. I replace the computers in my toy locomotives with electromechanical e-units. I would cut some slack for those who simply cannot find low-tech appliances. Does anyone make a TV without a remote or a car without computers?

In any case, chaqu'un a son goust.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by FJ and G

...
Also, I find it particularly amusing that some who complain about complex electronics parts in modern trains just happen to own a computer, several TV remotes, and a car controlled by a computer chip.

Dave:

Good point!! Wish I'd thought of that!

Tony

[FJ and G]

I purchased an SW-9 (which perhaps is scale size) and 2-8-0, both RKs, for just over $200 each and they came CC equipped (PS-2), about the same price as for many Williams engines w/o CC (not to say they are not good buys as well).

In the big picture, CC isn't really that much more expensive, unless you are just running 2 or 3 locomotives around the Christmas tree and that's it.

Also, I find it particularly amusing that some who complain about complex electronics parts in modern trains just happen to own a computer, several TV remotes, and a car controlled by a computer chip.

dav

[ben10ben]

I probably have less disposable income than at least 90% of the people on this board, yet I find command control affordable.

How do I find it this way?

I upgrade existing engines. A simple command control(no Railsounds) upgrade costs under $100, plus a couple of hours of time, and usually runs great.

I buy K-line. K-line's engines are fairly inexpensive to begin with, and many are blown out at rock-bottom prices.

Finally, I watch for blowouts. For example, K-line's RS-3 is very, very, very, well detailed, with brass add-on details and see through vent screens, has dual motors, smoke, engineer figures, and full Trainmaster Command Control and Railsouds. Select RS-3s are available from Western Depot now for $150. Yes, that's right, $150. That's about the same as you will pay for many Williams diesels from the larger mail order houses, and you're getting an engine with many more features.

If one watches for the deals, the excuse that command control costs too much just doesn't hold water at all. Sure, the selection may not be as plentiful, but they're out there.

[Back2Trains]

I am, at age 59, building my first layout using Lionel Postwar equipment. I am thoroughly enjoying all the accessories, operating cars and big engines that I drooled over 50+ years ago. At this time, I don't have any engines with command control, but only because I haven't yet bought any. I probably will because my two grandsons will love operating them and will be better at it from the gitgo than most of us who grew up on Postwar products.
I know I would have loved CC when I was a kid.

Jim

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Santafekent

I suppose remote control is a good thing, but I don't seem to own any remote compatable engines, and I'm not going to spend any extra money on a controller anyway. I imagine many of the conventional people must be like me; small layout, inexpensive loco's, no computer control, and no desire (or money) to get that deep in the hobby. I guess there must be lots of wealthy people buying those thousand Dollar computerized engines.... I can't even imagine. Fortunately for me, the regular affordable ones work great.

I believe I've said this in another thread, or maybe in this one earlier.

Not all command equipped engines have prices in the $1k range. Lionel's last catalog has the cheapest CC equipped engines in the $300 range.

The $1k+ engines cost that much not because of CC but because of the level of scale detailing applied to the engine. When you're spending that much for an engine, it might as well have CC in it, too.

Tony

[tschmidt]

I have been at this for little over a year now and I will probably stay with TMCC engines from Lionel. The new crane car works great wiith it also. I can control everything with one controller by assigning different numbers to each engine or other cars operated by TMCC. I am guessing that if Lionel is successful with their new crane cars they will keep introducing new things with TMCC. I even control my switches and routes with it. I had one engine I bought upgraded to railsounds, etc. I think it's great that I can be anywhere in the room and operate/watch the trains. There is a train shop that is great in helping learn how to use TMCC and even offers workshops to customers. I think (hope) prices will come down as time goes on.

Tom

[Anonymous]

I suppose remote control is a good thing, but I don't seem to own any remote compatable engines, and I'm not going to spend any extra money on a controller anyway. I imagine many of the conventional people must be like me; small layout, inexpensive loco's, no computer control, and no desire (or money) to get that deep in the hobby. I guess there must be lots of wealthy people buying those thousand Dollar computerized engines.... I can't even imagine. Fortunately for me, the regular affordable ones work great.

[eZAK]

Great responces! Keep 'em coming.

Well it seems I might have been a bit off with my 10% estimate.
I arrived at that feeling that about 50% of forum members use CC.
I also felt or heard that only about 20% of toy train owners use the forums.
That left me with the 10%.

Now, since we don't have any sale figures from our beloved importers how can we estimate the penatration of CC?
Maybe those of you with hobby stores can help us out?

Given a conservative estimate of 40%, including all scales from 'N' thru 'G', It would seem prudent to incorporate some of the other 60% (of those that are willing) into CC.
Even if it were just a hand held with speed control & two buttons, one for horn and one for bell.

Just an observation, But I've seen many layouts with nothing more than an on/off switch connected to a pre-set transformer (primarily in 'G', 'S', & 'N' scales, & a few 'HO' &'O'). Garden, museum & store layouts come to mind.

The idea of hands on is a good one. It can be done in any setting given certain parameters are set.

With all that being said, would anyone buy a no frills CC packaged with a starter set?
Provided one were in the market for a starter set.

My point here is that to promote the techno aspects of our hobby would only serve to ensure the future!

[GregM]

Same as others have stated, I am one of those people who won't purchase engines without TMCC and after having it in a few engines, they must have speed control. I have a few conventional engines that I have no desire to upgrade and will probably put up for sale.

[Anonymous]

There ain't no wrong way to enjoy trains.

The current penetration of command control in O gauge and the polarization of the community reminds me of something I read about the TCA. I think Allan Miller said this same thing on another thread somewhere.

Twenty years ago, postwar trains were considered junk by most of the TCA membership. Then, only prewar trains were collectible. This attitude reflected what the predominant collectors of the time cherished, which were the trains that they grew up with. As I remember reading, postwar was just plastic junk to them. The (then) younger folks who grew up with postwar & wanted to collect those trains were derided.

It's the same thing now. Many of the prewar dudes from 20 years ago have gone on to the big roundhouse in the sky & the postwar colelctors have taken their place. To them, "real trains" are operated by a handle from a fixed control station. None of this newfangled computerized command control stuff for them, if you please.

In 20 years, you won't be able to buy anything without command control. Those of us who are embracing command control now will be the predominant collectors, and we'll probably be deriding those newfangled thought controlled engines.

Tony

[jmpmap]

Ever since TMCC arrived, I made the committment to buy only TMCC equipped engines. I like the flexibility of having no set control panel. To me, it is nice to walk around the layout and see it from different angles rather than sitting in one spot. Sound adds another dimension to trains. This transformed me from a collector into an operator. I still have the postwar displayed and enjoy it.