Hello, I thought I would chime in on this too. Unlike a lot of folks here, my first train set was HO. It was a Tyco set, with a big Illinois Central Alco Century, running on 18 inch radius track. I got it when I was five (I am now 35) I was hooked with model trains ever since. A few years later, probably when I was about eight or nine, I recieved a hand me down Lionel outfit. I don't know the number, because it didn't have boxes, but it had a 2025 steamer, and three cars, plus a 3656 cattle car and 154 crossing flasher. I was quick to notice how much better the Lionel set ran than the Tycos, Bachmanns and Life Likes I had accumulated by then. Unfortunately, this was the eighties, when Lionel train prices were outrageous, so, being a kid and not being able to afford to add to it, the Lionel was put away.
As I got older, and started working, My HO collection grew, with Rivarossi, Broadway Limited, and Proto 2000 engines replacing my old toy stuff. I joined a local HO club, in which I made some lifelong friends and learned volumes about scenery, benchwork, and model railroading in general. Unfortunately, I also learned that sometimes HO scalers can take themselves a little too seriously. I sat in on my first prototypical operating session at a members house one day and found that out.
Every time I would go into my local hobby shop, I remember I would always take notice of the gorgeous steam engines MTH and Lionel were putting out in O scale, but with the $1000.00 plus price tags, they were well out of my reach, although the HO scale engines I was buying werent exactly cheap either!
Fast forward a few years, I began buying HO off Ebay. I also noticed in my surfing that you could buy used O Gauge trains fairly cheap. Just for nostalgias' sake, I bought a little Lionel 4-6-2 steamer and some new O gauge track to put around the Christmas Tree. It wasn't more than a couple of months before the track on my small 6X8 HO layout in the basement was removed and O gauge tubular track was in it's place. I was hooked! All those trains and accessories I wanted as a kid and young adult were now magically in reach (used ones at least!)
Now, when you go in my basement, you will find a 12 X 12 O gauge layout, with two loops of 072, and one loop of 031, and a yard with vintage and repro Lionel accessories. Right now, on the outer loops, are old Proto 1 MTH Scale C&O Allegheny and Scale N&W class A steamers, and on the inside loop a little Railking K4. I can turn on the throttles, and let these beauties run for long periods of time without worry of derailment, which was something I couldn't say about their HO counterparts (In a bit of irony, they also me cost me about the same as my HO scale versions of these same engines).
In closing, I can firmly say that I have no regrets and no temptations to switch back to HO. O simply runs better, and as of right now, seems to be a much better value. I too can't run long consists on my layout, and admit that maybe to a scale guy running a string of 6 or 7 postwar style cars behind a giant articulated steamer looks silly, but hey, I enjoy it, and it's my layout, so who cares. It's all about having fun!
(PS, I still have that 2025 set, and it often graces the inner loop of my layout, and runs just as good as ever!)
The larger the miniature train is, the closer it emulates the real trackside experience. If I didn't have such a large commitment to O, I would be in G.If I could afford it, I would be in live steam.
George
I guess you have to decide what you really want. If my main interest was modeling or scenery or creating a layout that evokes TRAINS magazine photos of long freights plying lonely mainlines through the wilderness... then I would probably be in HO. But my main interest is the trains themselves; and in O, the trains are just more exciting, IMHO. Like others, I like the heft. I like the noise, and the vibration of the table as they go by.
HO layouts I have seen, you feel like a mountain climber looking down on a railroad in the valley. O gauge trains are so much bigger, you feel more like a railfan sitting trackside. I like that; because at the end of the day, what I like is the trains. And so, I am willing to sacrifice absolute scale fidelity in the equipment, and length in the consists, to get it.
BTW, Is an HO train with 20 cars really "longer" than an O gauge train with 10 cars? Discuss.
I have been buying Lionel for all the kids in my family for years. For the last 25 years I have wanted my own, and a friend told me to buy just one thing. I didn't understand, but I did. And so it started... I started out with HO because it was a little cheaper to get started. Nothing fancy just middle of the road.
I have an area of 12X20 for the HO. One other reason I started with HO, is I would like to set up my home town around 1930 showing the trains coming in to the local quarries, and then taking them to Lake Erie to the schooners for transport to Canada.
I also want a 12X12 for just Christamas with Lionel. I just want to enjoy them, however being new, I am just learning.
Patrick
I made a full conversion to HO 20 or so years ago, and came back to Lionel O gauge. I just missed my O gauge trains. I think the larger size has a greater emotional impact as others have said. I still have my HO equipment and still run it on an HO club layout, but my home layout is a 20 x 20 foot O gauge layout. Oh well,
Mom and Dad gor me a couple HO sets growing up. Never cared for it. I liked O Gauge from the first tme I saw Dad's and my uncle's Lionels.
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
Hi!
Gotta get my 2 cents in here...........
I started with Lionel in the 1950s, and have a sizeable collection today. I put up a fairly large Christmas layout a couple years in a row, but it got to be a hassle. I've also been in HO since the 1960s, and have an 11x15 two level layout which was started two years ago but replaced an older one that had been there for 14 years. My point is, I have done a lot of "playtime" with both, and appreciate the plus/minus of each.
In my opinion, Lionel and Flyer "toy" (I mean that respectfully) trains are not better - or worse - than scale HO (or N or O or whatever). They are different entities, typically giving the enthusiast their own type of enjoyment. For me, those postwar Lionels bring me back to a happy time of my youth, while the scale Santa Fe and Illinois Central trains I run allow me to create my own model of a prototype world.
Before I started the latest HO layout, I did a lot of soul searching. Did I really want an HO world of class 1 trains, or did I want a narrow gauge road, or a Lionel layout? Being older (I will be 67 too soon), I fully realized that this is probably my last layout, so I really took the decision seriously. The HO world won out, but not by a heck of a lot.
To the OP I would say, enjoy your layout and make it the best you can. Give it some time to either grow on you - or not. At some point in the future you will be able to say, Yes, this layout / scale is what I want - or No, I really want to get the benefits of another. If the later is the case, then go for it. Otherwise, ENJOY what you have - and never look back again.
ENJOY !
Mobilman44
Living in southeast Texas, formerly modeling the "postwar" Santa Fe and Illinois Central
Well i have to say that i am with most of you who feel the size is alittle hard to deal with. I have been an o gauge fan since i can remember and now i am in my 30's, and a father of two boys. To me there is something about HO or smaller sizes that althought give you unlimited space to utilize, o gauge seems to be more scale.
Although MTH has done some interesting things with there HO trains in terms of sound and effects i still don't think that i would ever switch up. It's o gauge or nothing for me.
The reason for me being into O gauge is, I was brought up with Lionel trains and also now that I am back into the hobby my eyes can't see that little stuff anymore. I'd need a big magnifying glass over that whole HO layout.
laz57
All of us have our preferences. My primary scale is S. But I also have N, alot of HO and prewar O scale. My son's primary scale is European HO but he also has American Flyer prewar wide gauge. I like S scale for its size and the appearance and operation of S helper and American Model trains puts it on par with most HO equipment out there. Even the original American Flyer looks good but you have to consider the stuff is 50+ years old. However I am not going to knock anyones choice of scale! The nice thing about model railroading is that nothing is static. You can always change your mind and scale. So when this thread began about having remorse I would have none about chosing a particular size over another. Its all about having fun!
...anyone catch the tag on that dumptruck...?
Wow!
Lots of misinformation in this thread about HO scale, coming from the O gauge crowd, of course.
HO = H-orribly O-verrated. How so? Let's face it. O gauge is all about "toy trains". Nothing wrong with that. As I mentioned in a previous thread, I have a small American Flyer layout sitting across from my HO scale layout. But, HO scale is all about "model railroading". It much is more closer to the prototype in appearance and operation. It is clearly more popular than O gauge as evidenced by the widespread availability of the products lines and the volume of sales, and the number of participants.
The limitations of HO curvature requirements? There are no limitations. That is the beauty of HO. With flex track, you can design any degree of curvature you want, unlike O gauge where curvature is fixed.
Someone said, " I used to think that with H.O. trains I could have a much larger layout, but that is not always the case". I guess my 22' x 42' layout must be an illusion.
Another wrote, "The only thing that I have seen in H.O that you might get away with being smaller is using flex track. To me you need almost the same space as with H.O. so why not go with O gauge??" Which totally misses the point of the advantages of HO scale. Within the same space as allocated to O gauge, you can produce so much more visual effect, operating space and perspective, that HO wins hands down over O.
And, finally, this lame comment. "In HO there is always some of the rolling stock derailing for no reason, too sensitive to dirty track, always a loco here or there jerking, tiny little unreliable couplers".
Derailing for no reason? C'mon, you sound like an HO newbie who posts on the MRR forum for the first time. HO scale rolling stock does not derail "for no reason". It is always operator error. Misaligned track, humps and valleys, improperly thrown switch, out of gauge wheels. I also run trains in S scale (American Flyer) and my cars derails for a variety of reasons, always my fault. But then I guess O gauge is impervious to derailments.
Too sensitive to dirty track? LOL. On my American Flyer layout, I keep a can of denatured alcohol and a clean rag nearby for the rails and a Bright Boy eraser for the wheels.
A loco here or there jerking? Like O gauge doesn't? Get real!
Tiny little unreliable couplers. I focus on the word unreliable. Kadee is the industry leader in HO scale couplers. Trust me, folks, the couplers are reliable.
I am going back to the MRR forums where the views and opinions are much more realistic than they are here and the misinformation much less rampant.
Rich
Alton Junction
C&NW So I'm about 90% done with my roughly 8 x 11 O-gauge layout. I can run (conventionally) 4 trains at a time; 3 on the main level (3 separate loops: outer, middle and inner) and 1 on a second level " L" configuration. I very much like the feel of the O-gauge units (engines and rolling stock). However, after a year of subscribing to CTT magazine, I guess I've grown a bit jealous of the 20 x 30 layouts that can run ultra long consists. Given my 8 x 11 space I have wondered if I've made a mistake by not going the HO route. Anybody ever been at this point? I'd appreciate your thoughts.
So I'm about 90% done with my roughly 8 x 11 O-gauge layout. I can run (conventionally) 4 trains at a time; 3 on the main level (3 separate loops: outer, middle and inner) and 1 on a second level " L" configuration. I very much like the feel of the O-gauge units (engines and rolling stock). However, after a year of subscribing to CTT magazine, I guess I've grown a bit jealous of the 20 x 30 layouts that can run ultra long consists. Given my 8 x 11 space I have wondered if I've made a mistake by not going the HO route. Anybody ever been at this point? I'd appreciate your thoughts.
C&NW,
I feel your pain.
As a kid, I had two American Flyer train sets, a steam engine and a diesel switcher. When I went to college and later married and had a family, the trains went into storage for 40 years before I resurrected and rehabbed the engines in early 2010. Meanwhile, after my kids grew up and left home, I got re-interested in the hobby and ventured into HO scale and never looked back.
I now have a 22' x 42' HO scale in my basement that is fully landscaped and filled with steam and diesel. But, I also have a 7' x 10' table with my American Flyer layout on it. It is pretty simple. It consists of a double mainline running in an oval pattern, a few bridges, and some Department 56 houses in the center. True, there are web sites that show a variety of small layouts for S scale and O scale. But the truth of the matter is that there really isn't much you can do with a small layout space. At least not compared to what you can do with a large layout space.
Should you have any remorse? Should you move to HO and away from O ? I would answer it this way. If your O gauge stuff is vintage stuff from your childhood, stay with it and enjoy the memories. That's what I do with my American Flyer. But if you are new to the hobby and are buying new O gauge stuff, sell what you have and move to HO gauge. it is less expensive, the choices on engines, rolling stock and structures are limitless, and the space advantage cannot be beat. Remember, HO stands for Half of O Gauge. Even on your smaller 8' x 11' layout, you can pack in a whole lot of track and interesting structures, engines, rolling stock, landscaping.
As far as CTT magazine goes, don't renew it if you don't like it. It is supposed to be all about Classic Toy Trains which I infer to mean vintage Lionel, American Flyer, Marx, and the like. But it isn't about that at all. It is all about the new Lionel stuff, big, bulky, and that awful 3-rail - - - LOL. That's not a slam against Kalmbach Publications. Kalmback produces great stuff such as Classic Trains and Model Railroader magazine, and a host of special issues plus a number of great books. But CTT magazine is useless unless you are into the contemporary Lionel stuff.
My advice. Start subscribing to MRR magazine and give HO scale a try. You will love it.
Like Dennis(V8VEGA) mentions, I too experianced H.O. freigth cars just taking a sideways dip for no reason as they run around the track. Couplers don't like to stay closed in H.O. also, Kadee couplers help a little with that. H.O. has to be weighted just right or they derail so easily.
But then in O gauge with MTH and Gargrvaes switches, there is something that MTH engines hate about certain Gargraves switches on my layout. Lionel and Williams engines don't have problems with Gargraves switches.
Lee F.
No regrets as I have had HO layouts which seemed to call for more fussing with in terms of small parts, a backdrop comparatively realistic settings, which is another flavor. However, whether it is N ( which I did a layout in-forget about switching-ugh) or O, s or G whatever, I think as a rule of thumb no matter what gauge I was in ( even a garden railroad-which I still have) I felt at the time, that there is never enough room. Think of it, if space were no object what is the ideal size.? For me , it's probably a unrealistic goal to buy Wyoming for a layout. IIs always compromise, whether it is the wife the kids work or layouts.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
V8Vega - ...by chance, would you be a size 17/32?
Thank you all for you responses. It has greatly helped to get some perspective through your own observations and experiences. I know this group is probably going to have a bit of a predisposition to "O", but I needed the reinforcement. BTW, my dad has a nice HO layout. He was showing me the progress over the weekend by running a long train on the outer loop. Everything was fine until he wanted to switch to an inner loop; after flipping the manual switch he derailed. He commented on the "finicky-ness" of running HO. When we go to a train show (monthly in Wheaton, IL) I suppose my looking over his shoulder at the HO stuff is matched by his looking over mine at the "O" gauge items....I envy the cost of HO engines, track, rolling stock, etc. But I do feel he does miss the "hefty" feel of "O"....he was raised on "O" gauge and I think it has truly never left his blood. In fact, when he comes over to my house I make sure I have my 0-8-0 steamer on the rails (the smoke and steam railsounds boxcar I have in the consist make his day). Oh, to have the best of both worlds. But I'll stick with "O"; I'm too far along..".the train has left the station" as they say. Perhaps I will post my layout for some feedback/suggestions; I hadn't thought about doing that. Finally, perhaps there's a local train club I can visit to exorcise my HO demons...or even my dad's layout. Thanks all. Paul
The only thing that I have seen in H.O that you might get away with being smaller is using flex track and a Gandy Dancer car, or a handcar. To me you need almost the same space as with H.O. so why not go with O gauge??
I have some American Flyer S gauge(normally 42 inch curves) and they take up more space than O gauge track. There was Pike Master by A.F. years ago but it didn't catch on that well, it had smaller radius curves. Also not that much would run on Pike Master do to the curve sizes.
The curvature limits mentioned by Lee and Fife are excellent points I forgot about. . . Running shorter engines and rolling stock in your existing layout might also make a difference.
Roy:
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
I used to think that with H.O. trains I could have a much larger layout, but that is not always the case. H.O. train track has a factory minimum size of 15 inch radius or a 30 inch circle, and 027 has a circle of 27 inches. O gauge has a 31 inch circle minimum, so there isn't much space saved by going to H.O. Some of the cost for engines and rolling stock and track might be a lot less, but you still need the same size area for H.O.
N gauge is just tooo small. Working on an N gauge engine, I would need a magnifying glass or microscope to see the parts.
So I still like to run mainly O gauge trains. Had 027 & O gauge since I was about 5 years old, could not run them without my dad until I was 8 years old. Around 10 or 11 I got my first multi train transformer, the 275 watt ZW, still works great, just need newer circuit protection for the newer trains.
Many companies are trying to price themselves out of the ballpark, so to speak, with engines at $500.00 or better. Who can afford the major brands? That is one of the reasons I am buying mainly Williams engines and RMT rolling stock.
I have a "pedigree" in HO, with a BS in N-scale. In my teens-20's-30's emphasis was on creating a scale model rr. When my son was born, got "re"introduced to O, which was also the time when synchronized steam and sound hit the market. Hooked like a big ol' catfish. Current layout is 9x13, and I've worked a considerable run into it, as I now like to sit back and just watch my trains snake through my scenery.
I personally feel, given the limitations of HO curvature requirements, you are still ahead of the game sticking with O. My suggestion to you now is to simplify your trackplan; remove 2 lines, and replace as much straight check with O-72 and other curves as possible.
Perhaps a few pics of your current layout would help us, help you.
I imagine MTH HO because their use of DCS offers some interesting special effects in comparison to DCC.Yep, I have been using DCS since the initial release, really like all the options available. Since MTH HO has PS-3 capabilities the system will only get more robust.
Bill T.
I was running HO before my boys were born. Following family tradition, each received a Lionel set for his first Christmas, just like all of my nephews. However, the 7 trains given to my 7 nephews all disappeared into the abyss after a Christmas or two, and I couldn't bear to see that happen to my boys' trains. Not wanting to dedicate my entire basement to train layouts, I broke down my HO and replaced it with the Lionel. So far I can't bring myself to sell my HO equipment - I have a lot of it - so it is mostly on display right now.
I don't really regret switching to O, but sometimes I do feel a little bad knowing how much HO scenery and equipment I have that I'm not using, compared to how much stuff I still need to buy for the larger trains.
Remorse?Keep your layout and trains, drop the magazine.
Your layout is a nice size, as big, or bigger than most people would be able to build. All the "O" gauge centric magaizines put too much emphasis on expensive trains, and tremendous layouts. I think they drive people away from the hobby.
HO = H-orribly O-verrated
Doubt I will never go back to HO or N, just dont get anything from it anymore, but I might try a micro in T gauge just for fun ...
Have fun with your trains
I switched to O when ebay came along and opened the door to post war for me. Where I live swap meets and train shows are unheard of. I had no idea all this O stuff was available, so I quickly acquired what I could afford. Switch back to HO? Never, never never.
I have often thought about HO, but at my age (72) the larger O gauge trains give me more pleasure because I can see them.. My table is presently 4X16 with a 4X4 addition, so I can put together reasonably long trains.
My primary layout is 9 by 14 but the one I operate on most commonly is only 4 by 6. So, I collect scout engines and similarly short cars.
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
I was first introduced to HO when I was about 5 or 6 and then when I turned 9 my father ( well 2 months befor) brought home an O gauge Lionel set with super O track and a B&M 2359 GP-9 engine and the rest is history and to be honest yes you can have longer trains in a given area than you can with O seeing there about 1/2 the size But I wouldn't trade for Ho and definitely not go to n scale just too small for me to work on and I like working on my own trains when I can.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
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