Hello,i am a first time poster.
I will preface this by saying thanks for all the info that i am going to be receiving.
My trouble is , i purchased a Lionel 671 and 671w and it is in visually great shape.
But when power is applied it want's to bind up with an irritating Grinding sound and i can them firmly push the train and it will engage and go for a ride. It does it in both directions.
I have checked to see that nothing was loose inside and it all seems good... Just to let you know my theory is the worm gear is fling the axle to one side or another and causing the binding...But that theary sounds to easy and the remedy seems Far from easy.
I will hate to give up on this loco but i have limited knowledge on Repair.
Thanks again for any info.
Take the body off, remove the square metal plate at the base of the motor and inspect the gear. I would not run it till the problem is found as more damage could be done. Remove the old dry grease and redo.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
I have removed the body and grease plate cover it all has been cleaned.
The brass axle gear does not appear to be misshapen or mushroomed but without a point of referance it is hard to say
I have noticed the axles move up to an 1/8 inch in either direction...leaving the axle gear un-centered of the worm drive.
Is this normal??motor runs great when power applied wheels spin freely when worm drive is away from axle gear.
Argh!!
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http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=196733850347584&set=a.196732867014349.43865.100000329100287
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can i post photos here. And if so....How?
an old fix for too much side to side is to find or make a C clip and snap it on the axle between the wheel and the frame to remove the side to side play.
sir james I an old fix for too much side to side is to find or make a C clip and snap it on the axle between the wheel and the frame to remove the side to side play.
Thanks Sir James for all the info.
I posted a video of the finished result. The link below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJQclLqr5bc
welcome to the site! the 671 (and all the postwar steamers are pretty easy to fix. lots of good info here. My Turbine had the side to side wheel ovement, so I pulled the drivers off, and used some small washers. a touch of super glue holds the drivers in place of needed, and will still pull off if needed.
Dave
It's a TOY, A child's PLAYTHING!!! (Woody from Toy Story)
Kevin, you didn't say so, but I assume you lubed everything when you had the loco apart. I always suggest people use 5W-20 motor oil rather than grease as the motor oil won't get gummy and have to be cleaned out in 20 years.
Bruce Baker
I oiled all points in as outlined in the Manual and did clean out the 60 year old grease from the grease pit near the worm gear and axle. i manufactured shims to fill the play on either side of the axle gear to remedy the side to side play,and also had to shim the motor,Where it mounts to the chassis(it seems that the motor housing was slightly banana shaped due to age causing a rocking motion)I shimmed up the rear of the housing and this action allowed the worm drive to mesh with the Axle gear. I am very pleased with the way this Turbine is running,this is a very nice engine ....NOW!!
A link to the finished Turbine.
just got my new/old turbine running, weirdest thing, received it 3 weeks ago and it wouldnt run, every time i applied power it would short out my transformer, took it apart cleaned and oiled it and it still wouldnt run, just short out the transformer, fast forward a week later and i decide to work on it again, apply power and whammo, a perfectly running engine, no idea what i did lol, but i will not question it ,cheers
Nice video Kevin. I really like the soundtrack.
J White
My 671 is doing something similar. Very jerky and makes kind of a grinding noise. With motor removed, wheels turn freely and so does armature on the motor. Also, checked the puffer and it is not binding at all and neither are the drive rods. Train has been completely cleaned with all old grease removed and fresh grease applied. Seemed to be running good at first, especially before I disassembled and cleaned. Also seems like this problem has gotten worse from the last time I tried troubleshooting it. Anyway, with the motor in place I can not turn the wheels, however I can turn the armature and the everything moves freely. My axle does have some slop.
Can somebody post a pic of the fix they put together for the axle slop? My guess is that this is a good place to start.
One other thing, I did run the motor by itself grounded to the side of the chassis (may not have been a great ground) Seemed to run pretty good although it did make a slight noise intermittently, This may very well have been my very crude grounding though not making a good circuit.
js.........fear not, have patience, someone with more experience than I will jump in and help you here.
When is the last time you checked or replaced the motor brushes? Does your 671 have a lot of hours/miles on it?
Jack
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
Just replaced the brushes this morning, no improvement. It's an eBay engine that I really got a good price on, very good cosmetics and came with a Pennsy 2046 tender. It has the more modern style motor that the 681 has. May be a 671 RR, but the box didn't say that (assuming it is the original box for this particular engine). Doesn't have much wear on the rollers so it may not have seen a lot if use over it's life.
Olsen's Lionel Train Parts has schematics, for different 671 engines and the # 6200, boiler front decal.Your video, music, layout and 671 heading the freight cars, are all great.
Olsen's: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/671-47.htm
Don't be offended, but in your Avatar, you look like Mike Piazza.
Good Luck and welcome Kevin,
Ralph
There is an oil hole for the motor bearings. Did you guys oil the motor?
Yes, I oiled it with Lionel oil as I was putting it back together the first time, spun very freely, motor looks great, too. I've never had a post war engine that I couldn't easily turn the wheels on in both directions.
This is what you have to do:
Kevin McSheridan... i manufactured shims to fill the play on either side of the axle gear to remedy the side to side play,and also had to shim the motor,Where it mounts to the chassis(it seems that the motor housing was slightly banana shaped due to age causing a rocking motion)I shimmed up the rear of the housing and this action allowed the worm drive to mesh with the Axle gear. I am very pleased with the way this Turbine is running,this is a very nice engine ....NOW!!
The axle bushings are worn. To put off replacing them, you need to shim the rear drive axle and worm wheel(gear) under the grease cap so the gear is centered & stays centered. C-clips or cut washers work well.
Rob
jsonova99 I've never had a post war engine that I couldn't easily turn the wheels on in both directions.
I've never had a post war engine that I couldn't easily turn the wheels on in both directions.
Earl
Shimmed the axle, no improvement, decided it's the motor. When running it still intermittently checks up, but the sound is not really grinding, hard to describe, I also watched the gears when this happened and they don't stop moving at all. I had this same problem on my 2037 which is a totally different motor but dud the same thing and made the same sound. I fixed that by shimming the brush plate. It's as if the armature somehow binds in the motor causing a huge amount if mechanical resistance. I don't know if the motor is shot or I just need a new brush plate. The motor does move freely but as I mentioned in a previous post, when I ran the motor out of the engine, it did make a similar sound with no load on it. Bat the time I wrote it off to a crappy ground since I was holding it against the drive rods to ground it. Anybody ever experience something like this? Any thoughts on what I should try next? There's just nothing that points to the drivetrain. With the new bushings I can turn the wheels back and forth with no binding by hand. Time for a new motor?
Sounds like the axle bearings are worn. You can try shimming them, but you are just postponing their inevitable replacement. Worn bearings will eventually cause the worm gear to wear out also.
How are the motor bearings? Does the armature have any front to back, or side to side play at all in the motor? If so, the motor bearings may need replacement. Did you take the motor apart, clean and grease the bearings? When replacing the motor on the frame, heed the instructions in the first paragraph, right column: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/cd/locos%5Cloc671p1.pdf
Lastly, the axle worm gear may be worn. If you replace the axle bearings, replace the gear at the same time, as you have to take it off anyway.
I repaired a 681 that I can turn the wheels easily. It needed 2 axles, and 2 custom made axle bearings, as the frame holes for the bearings had worn too big for the standard replacements. An extra-ordinary repair for sure, but the loco needed it to run properly again.
Larry
Fixed! It ended up being the thrust bearings. I fully disassembled the motor, cleaned up the armature and thrust bearings, greased the bearings and lightly oiled the armature bushings. As soon as I put it back together I could move the wheels forward and backward with almost no effort. I did a quick run and the binding is gone, I'll give it a full test run tomorrow when the kids are awake.
Thanks for all of the great information from everybody, I get a little more knowledgeable with every one of these old engines I bring back into service.
For the most part Lionel's pre and post war goods were made like miniature machines, they work for a long time, when care is used and easy to repair.
Spoke too soon, it worked for a little while but it is steadily getting back to where it was. It did make a difference though, maybe I just need to replace the thrust bearings. Will they get flat spots over time or anything, especially if not properly lubed since the 50's? Short of buying a new motor, I'm not sure what else to try.
What exactly are your symptoms now? Can you still turn the wheels freely by hand as you previously did?
It is possible you may have more than one problem contributing to your symptoms. Take off the siderods and run the engine without them, and try turning just the rear wheels by hand. Is there still slop in the rear axle? If so, replace the bearings. Is there any play in the armature? There should be none. It is doubtful the thrust bearings are worn out, but they can be replaced if doubtful. I don't think a new motor is going to solve your problem, and recommend replacing the axle bearings and worm gear next.
The problem is intermittent, it will happen when the engine is cruising or starting and happens in both forward and reverse. The sound is not a grinding noise, hard to describe it, but the wheels might be checking up some on the track. What I have noticed is that with the motor in hand, if I spin the armature by hand as fast as I can the motor does exactly what the engine does when running. It will spin freely and then make this noise and stop spinning. This is why I was thinking bearings. The "event" as I will call it seems to be something binding or sticking in the motor. This is why I think the motor is the culprit.
Now with that said, here is what I have done and have checked:
1) Wheels spin freely with or without motor in place in both directions
2) armature spins freely except for the random "event" described above. Armature had some front to back play so I added a second bearing race on the worm gear end as described in the repair instructions. There is no longer any front to back play and there is very little side to to side (a few mils at most), nothing out of the ordinary compared to other post war engines I've played with that run fine. removing the front to back slop in the armature made no difference. Motor will still experience the "event" described.
3) everything cleaned, greased, and oiled. This includes removing the armature, cleaning it, greasing the bearings and lightly oiling the armature bushings in the motor. This did help, made moving the wheels back and forth much easier, and engine ran without the problem for a few times around the track before it happened a few times, much less frequent than previously. Got worse later though.
4) applied the rear axle fix described in this thread and there is no longer any side to side play in the rear axle (this did not have any effect on the problem)
5) No signs of drive rods binding
6) worm gear and axle gear look very clean, no signs of excessive wear.
7) fresh brushes and polished commutator
I think that covers everything so far. When I ran the engine this morning after re-greasing the armature bearings, it ran great, until it checked up a few times, Tonight it was bad, could barely go 6 inches without binding.
Thanks for the explanation. So it seems your problem occurs with the motor out of the frame, and spinning the armature by hand. Do you have the brushplate removed when doing this? If not, remove it and try again. There needs to be a little for and aft play in the armature when cold, or as the motor heats up, the parts expand a fraction, and could then be too tight against the thrust washers to turn freely. Spin the armature at the commutator end, then at the shaft end, and see if there is a difference. Chances are that the bearings will need to be replaced even though they seem good. May need a rebuild with new bearings, thrust washers and bearing balls.
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