Timboy Hector: You're welcome! I threw things at you using brute force an one of them was right. Thanks to all who participated! Regards, Timboy
Hector: You're welcome! I threw things at you using brute force an one of them was right. Thanks to all who participated!
Regards,
Timboy
I want to thank all of you as well. Several sites talk about one problem or another. This thread has explained what seems like every imaginable issue and given a good idea of what to do about each. Thank you all very much!
FYI, I had the loose rim issue on my 293 (on both leading drive wheels). I ended up resolving that issue by cleaning out the wheel with the rim pushed to the inside. Then just applying some super glue and pressing the rim back onto the wheel (evenly). Until I realized this the engine derailed by submerging between the tracks and would actually fall over on top of the tracks (shorting accross the cast metal engine shell). Now I'm looking for a #4 transformer with a breaker instead of the #2 without a breaker.
lionelsoni The specifications for the 342AC are: "Tested at: 12 volts A.C....using 140"oval of track. "(A) Motor to be tested with Remote Control Unit at 12 Volts and not to draw more than 1.55 amps. "(B) Locomotive to run at a minimum of 9 RPM or 9 times forward around 140" oval of track per minute. "(C) Locomotive to run at a minimum of 8.5 RPM or 8 1/2 times reverse around 140" oval of track per minute.
The specifications for the 342AC are:
"Tested at: 12 volts A.C....using 140"oval of track.
"(A) Motor to be tested with Remote Control Unit at 12 Volts and not to draw more than 1.55 amps.
"(B) Locomotive to run at a minimum of 9 RPM or 9 times forward around 140" oval of track per minute.
"(C) Locomotive to run at a minimum of 8.5 RPM or 8 1/2 times reverse around 140" oval of track per minute.
Hector:
The thread seems to have died about a year ago. However, I am looking it over for testing ideas as my 293 runns a bit slow compared to a 303 that I just purchased (30% difference). Both engines are Pull-More.
I am curious if you did the electrical tests that were mentioned previously. You mentioned the unit being slower than Lionel, but I think there are many other factors beyond the engine. Since you said both of your engines are similarly slow, I wonder if the transformer may be putting out low voltage. My father (who I picked up the AF hobby from) has told me that is model #15 transformer provided noticibly lower speed (voltage I assume) than his original #2. He said this was the case when they were brand new in the 50s. The bottom line is that some transformers may not perform as well as others (possibly more so with age).
I would check the output max voltage, and check it again under load to see if the voltage drops more than expected with load. If so, you may want to try getting another transformer.
Now I'm off to figure out why my 293 is so slow.
Hector: Based on what you said, I have to wonder if you previously had over-tightened one of the long screws that seats the motor to the chassis and thereby created a torque or mis-alignment of the field, relative to the armature. I've done that myself. You could try tightening/loosening the screws while it's running and see what difference, if any that makes.
I purchased another 283 AF loco on ebay as a spare and to test the track. It's plastic of course so, much lighter. I cleaned and lubed it up and noticed it runs a bit faster/better than the 342. I swapped armatures just for fun and the 342 seemed to pull a bit better, but not much. I then swapped them back, and NOW the 342 runs quite well. ::Scratches head::
Neither engine runs super fast like my Lionels. Maybe a function of American Flyer?
Maybe running, tearing apart 6 times and working the engine in helped. I ordered a new armature from "Train Repair Parts" a division on Hobby Surplus anyway. I hope they are reputable.
At any point the layout is now complete and will be ready for showcase come Christmas time.
If the wheels are spinning when you add the extra cars but the train isn't moving, it's a traction problem. If the wheels aren't spinning, then either the motor is too weak, the cars have excessive rolling resistance, or the motor is not getting enough voltage to pull the cars.
Earl
Hector: You're making progress! Are the wheels spinning? Sometimes drive wheels get burnished so smoothly that they lose all traction. I had a steamer like that once that could hardly pull it's own self up a 2% grade! There was nothing wrong with the motor. The *** thing just wouldn't grab the tracks. When - out of exasperation - I took a file and roughed up the rails, it would haul almost anything - for a little while. You could try a thin - very thin - coating of rubber cement on the rear drive wheels. If that causes them to grab and pull wallpaper off your walls, then you know the motor is good and the drive wheels need more traction. Bullfrog Snot is usually the answer to that.
Keep up the great work!
So Jim...Timboy. Did you watch the video? Like I said I've got it wide open and it has a hard time pulling 3 cars, that's why the searchlight car is just sitting there for now. Are Lionel engines faster with more pulling power?
I'll clean the track and cars again. I'm betting they haven't been cleaned for 50 years.
Now that's what makes this site so valuable! I'm sure you're not the only one that benefits from this thread! Great job everyone!
Ray
Bayville, NJ
Life is what happens to youWhile you're busy making other plans - John Lennon
Hector,
This should work now. Glad you got it fixed.
Success! Thanks for everyones help especially timboy. All I had to do was pull the wheel out a little bit and that did the trick. No more short. I also needed to clean the track and several of the cars. The set was given to me and there was copious amounts of grease on several of the wheels. So clean track is a must. Here's a video of the train in action. I have it wide open. Is this all I can expect? It's a lot slower than my lionel engines.
http://s628.photobucket.com/albums/uu4/hectorgonzales222/?action=view¤t=MVI_3185.mp4
For some reason I can't get an imbedded video to work here.
If you can get your hands on a gear-puller it would help immensly. Pulling the wheels off any other way risks damaging the wheel or bending the axle.
I have figured out what is wrong with my brain! On the left side nothing works right, and on the right side there is nothing left!
Ok, maybe some progress. I found out that the first set of wheels shorts to the frame when I rock them back and forth. This is the axle that has the worm drive gear on it. Can I just pry the wheels of the axle? I think all I have to do is insulate it like Timboy suggests....
Major In some ways I am like Tim, I like to keep my Flyer as it was when made. However I have change out a poor performing motor with a 1/2 speed can motor. The results were worth it, however this particular steamer still has the Gilbert mechanical reverse unit with at Bridge recifier across it. Port Line hobbies has the parts for the conversion. I say or for it!
In some ways I am like Tim, I like to keep my Flyer as it was when made. However I have change out a poor performing motor with a 1/2 speed can motor. The results were worth it, however this particular steamer still has the Gilbert mechanical reverse unit with at Bridge recifier across it. Port Line hobbies has the parts for the conversion. I say or for it!
Major,
When you replaced the open frame motor with a 1/2 speed can motor, how much did this affect the speed of your loco?
Rich
Alton Junction
Hector: Does it always stop on that same spot on that same curve? If so, pull the track apart and make sure that both pins extend generously into both sections of track. Flare them out laterally just a bit so that as you re-connect the track, they make a positive contact with the inside of the hollow track. It could be that simple and not the fault of the loco at all - but that doesn't actually sound consistent with all you've noted in the past. OBTW, cute little layout!
Layout in progress....Engine in question....
Wired in series as the drawings indicate. The engine always stops on a curve... same right side curve on an oval layout. But again, I can go round 3 or 4 times, then it stops.......Nudging it slightly allows it to move once again. Hmmmmm...maybe I should construct a layout with straight's only
Well, I bought another loco on ebay. I'll test run that and see what happens as soon as I get it in. I'm wondering if the armature is coil winding is bad. The engine requires a little more torque going round the curve.....a possibility?
Are the field and armature wired in series (correct) or parallel (wrong)?
Bob Nelson
Hector: The centers of the drive wheels are some kind of non-conductive material; plastic or bakelite or something like that. Don't worry about the white rims. If the metal wheel rims are firmly anchored to the centers, that's fine. There should be a little bit of play on the wheelset as you observed, but not too much. Many of the loco axle holes were not bushed - I can't tell you which were and which weren't. The ones that weren't would wear and get sloppy. Too much slop and they can find a way to short out against the chassis. To check if they are in gauge - if you don't own an NASG track gauge, just look at several other wheelsets on several other cars, etc. Compare them side-by-side with your loco or use calipers or a ruler. I mention to use several examples because Flyer wheelsets are notorious for getting out of gauge.
I also cannot disagree with Stebbycentral and it seems like you will have to go that route to get to the bottom of this problem. IMHO, that is actually a very logical approach. Tear it down as he suggests and start building it back up, running it as you go - looking for that fatal flaw. Spin the wheels on the chassis. They should run true and if there is appreciable wobble, then that's not good. If you know what the bushing looks like in the chassis for the motor shaft, check for that. Maybe it's missing or knocked out somewhat and that causes the shaft to thrust out of line and bind with the worm gear - all as Stebbycentral suggested. Also put your meter on continuity setting and put one probe on one face of the armature and the other probe on another face. You should get a reading, as you test each plate (pole). If you don't on one, then that indicates a shorted-out pole. A far different reading could indicate a weak pole. I mention this as more of an oh-by-the-way. If you are convinced that that problem is when the loco goes on a curved section, that is important and indicates either an intermittent electrical break or a binding somewhere. Forgive me if I'm either repeating my self or what Stebbycentral or someone else has mentioned.
Doesn't the white plastic circle you see on the outside rim of the wheels insulate the body from the wheel? Do they need replaced on a regular basis? My wheels are not loose on the axle. All wheels are tight on the wheel shaft, but there is some play back and forth as you grab both wheels and axle together. You would need that in order for the wheels to move round.
Timboy Hector: When it hesitates, is it on a straight or on a curve? I'm just wondering if you have a loose drive wheel rim that will make brief, intermittent contact with the chassis. That happened to me once with similar symptoms of what you describe and yet it would "bench-test" like a run-a-way. When I saw where the loose wheel was, I solved it by thoroughly degreasing the drive wheel and rim where they meet and cementing them back together. Then I cut out a small circle of paper from a brown paper bag; cut a hole in the middle for the axle and cut a slot in the paper to the hole in the middle. I was able to work that onto the axle to act as an insulator. Okay, that was a "meatball" fix, but two years and running... It does sound like an electrical problem and they can be a bugger to - well, de-bug. You can go around the track with a meter set for AC and see how constant the track voltage is. Another thing to check are all your solder joints. As one of the last resorts I do, I re-solder all joints to make sure they are good. You bypassed the tender reverse unit, so I'm thinking we can eliminate that. Sometimes one of those fingers make just the lightest contact to the drum and that can cause similar track-running problems. You may as well check the gauge of your drive wheels. Nothing to lose doing that. I had a loco once with one set of drive wheels that were out-of-gauge too narrow and they managed to intermittently contact the chassis. Darndest thing! C'mon guys! What are we missing here? Regards, Timboy
Hector: When it hesitates, is it on a straight or on a curve? I'm just wondering if you have a loose drive wheel rim that will make brief, intermittent contact with the chassis. That happened to me once with similar symptoms of what you describe and yet it would "bench-test" like a run-a-way. When I saw where the loose wheel was, I solved it by thoroughly degreasing the drive wheel and rim where they meet and cementing them back together. Then I cut out a small circle of paper from a brown paper bag; cut a hole in the middle for the axle and cut a slot in the paper to the hole in the middle. I was able to work that onto the axle to act as an insulator. Okay, that was a "meatball" fix, but two years and running...
It does sound like an electrical problem and they can be a bugger to - well, de-bug. You can go around the track with a meter set for AC and see how constant the track voltage is.
Another thing to check are all your solder joints. As one of the last resorts I do, I re-solder all joints to make sure they are good.
You bypassed the tender reverse unit, so I'm thinking we can eliminate that. Sometimes one of those fingers make just the lightest contact to the drum and that can cause similar track-running problems.
You may as well check the gauge of your drive wheels. Nothing to lose doing that. I had a loco once with one set of drive wheels that were out-of-gauge too narrow and they managed to intermittently contact the chassis. Darndest thing!
C'mon guys! What are we missing here?
That sounds promising. I always seems to stop on a curve.
Timboy C'mon guys! What are we missing here?
I can understand an electrical problem causing it to stop intermittently, but this performance issue really sounds like more of a mechanical problem to me. The fact that it runs freely when there is no pressure on the drivers, but hesitates when setting on the track, leads me to believe that there is something wrong with the suspension.
Hector, have you tried just running the chassis without the shell on it? That way you can get a good look at the internal mechanism, the worm and the dive gear, in action. See if there is any play in those parts that might be causing the drive train to bind under load. A missing thrust bearing could be causing the armature to move in and out while under load
I'm, also wondering if you might have a wheel with a bent axle. If you push the chassis by hand, do any of the drivers seem to wobble? Are the drivers quartered properly? If you run it with and without side rods do you see a difference? If the thing runs fine with no shell on it, then you have to look at what other parts of the body might be binding against the mechnaism.
. I took the engine apart and cleaned everything once again. Replaced the brushes and springs. Tested for binding. Everything moving smoothly. I placed it on the track and had to push it to go. After that it took off, but still hesitated. After about 12 laps it stopped again on the track. I had to push it once again for it to move. It's still too slow IMHO. Something is still not right. I completely bypassed the tender coil and still no change.
Again, I can lift the engine from the track with the tender still resting on the track and the thing runs like a bat outta hell free wheeling. I'm not sure if I'm not getting good continuity on this 50 year old track or what. I'm thinking of buying another American flyer steamer on Ebay for 60 bucks just to make sure it's not the track. I should have another one anyway...
Frustrated......Down.......but not out.
Bob:
Thanks. Good reply. At this point, I think we pretty much have all bases covered on what the problem could be with that particular loco. And all these areas are good ones to look at in any similar loco with the kind of problem Hector originally described.
I hope Hector can do a good analysis and will respond back what he found and what he did to correct it. I think we could all benefit from feedback like that.
Tim, I was responding to your statement, "Those armature and field coils were wound some 60+ years ago with enameled wire that was rather state-of-the-art back then. Perhaps over the years the resistance value in either or both pieces has increased a lot." The armature resistance, as I meant to suggest, can increase for other reasons, such as a broken wire or a bad solder joint, but not because the copper wire can deteriorate or because of insulation failure. Bad insulation will instead decrease the resistance. It will also create shorted turns, which are a disaster for AC operation. This is also true for the field winding. I often suggest trying to run a suspect motor on DC just to try to detect shorted turns, which may have little or no effect on DC operation.
As for testing the armature, simply comparing the three possible resistance measurements (for a three-pole motor) will almost certainly expose any failure, whether open circuits or short circuits.
I don't have my service manual here; but I recall that many Flyer steam locomotives supply the headlight by placing it in parallel with the field or armature, to avoid having a fifth wire in the tether. If the 342 is one of these, it might be a good experiment to disconnect the headlight.
Bob: I suspect I am right and that a given motor (with a low friction load) COULD turn with one pole shorted out, but not so much under full load.
You made a statement that I want to revisit and examine further. And I quote: "Neither the resistance of copper wire nor of any properly made solder joints will increase with age. However, other types of connnections that might exist (like the faston connection to the fuse block of my car's horn circuit yesterday) may indeed increase in resistance over time (48 years)." End quote
While that may be a true statement, I feel that it derails (pun intended - lol) the problem-solving of why that motor will spin well during a bench test but poorly under load.
This is what I wish to promote:
The armature resistance is known and published and is usually measured from one commutator plate to another by the average repair guy. The resistance measurement taken gives a clue to the repairman that maybe a coil's enamel insulation has been damaged by heat, age, etc. A common complaint and diagnosis after taking the above measurement is a "weak armature". Given your true statement that the resistance of copper wire does not increase over age, aren't I putting the problem into a better context? (edit)That context being that the resistance of the coil or coils in an armature may indeed change over age due to what I noted above. And when that happens, a partial or total coil failure can happen.(/edit)
I believe I have a valid argument.
And I quote, "Neither the resistance of copper wire nor of any properly made solder joints will increase with age." End quote. Could it then be that one pole of an armature is shorted out? If so, perhaps the armature still turns during a bench test because there is low friction & low load, but the motor's power would be greatly reduced under load? Is this a valid thought?
Thanks,
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