This is not a inferred value judgment, just my curiosity that another thread sparked. The HO scale folks or at least a lot of folks who write on HO scale often promote "prototypical" operations. You know, waybills, assorted paperwork, scheduled trains, dispatchers, even crew callers. My question is this: How many of us in O scale ( clubs, lone wolves etc) follow or emulate this method of running trains. If so, what are the positives and negatives? The reason I am asking is ignorance. Is this an anomaly in O scale these days or common?
As a lone wolf I am just curious about the rest of the pack...
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Kinda hard to do proto ops when ya haz to wind up everything and it tears around the track at 400mph
Have fun with your trains
If you did everything to scale, track length, speed, etc. then time would not scale, and if it took a real train 8 hours to go between stops, it would take the same time on the model railroad. This could get very boring. We don't scale everything because we don't have enough room. A scale mile of track in O gauge is 110 ft long. In HO, it would be 60 ft long. In N scale @ 148:1, a mile is 35.67 ft. Now you want to make a scale model RR from Chicago to St. Louis, it is going to be huge. So no one really has a true scale model RR.
I personally don't have any interest in RR operations. I just like to watch the train run around a complex layout. I like to have a lot of switches which is not prototypical. And I am not that interested in making scenery.
Bruce Baker
Bruce,
A minor point, "N" Scale is 160:1, not 148:1, and FWIW, "Z" is 220:1, both of which are way to small for ME to enjoy. Even Horribly Ordinary(HO) loses something for me when compared the Heft and Mass of "O". I could see myself getting involved with Gauge 1, Commonly collectively refered to as "G", which is a particular SCALE, that runs on Gauge 1 track. But I am already well equipped with, and HAPPY with "O" Gauge. Last weekend though, I did something that could have been Very Dangerous(to my budget) I visited a club that runs 7.5 " gauge, and that Live Steam SP Pacific almost converted me.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Oh people: I think the operative word is "simulate".
Regards,
Timboy
I'm afraid that "G" is not a "particular" scale, but any of several scales, ranging from 1/20.3 to 1/32, depending on whether the 45-millimeter track is intended to represent a prototype gauge of 3 feet, 1 meter, or 56.5 inches (1435 millimeters).
Bob Nelson
I've tried all sorts of things over the years, ranging from running a switch list through tabs-on-cars down to picking random 'event' cards from a home-made deck. Currently, we are running according to how the Fat Controller or Sir Hatt desires us to ... without confusion and delay. We have an express run by James, a branch line for Thomas and two freights, one pulled by Percy and the other by a 'faced' 520, all on their separate tracks.
Doug Murphy 'We few, we happy few, we band of brothers...' Henry V.
I belonged to a club in VA. where one of the members did a bit where you had cards and you had to drop off train cars and pick up different ones ect but never made it out there but mixed reviews also as some liked it some didn't rather just run there trains how they wished.
Me personally don't know if i could get into that type of setting. I still have to build my layout and not real sure how its going to go. But I'm more into running my trains on there loop how ever I construct it.
Life's hard, even harder if your stupid John Wayne
http://rtssite.shutterfly.com/
Waybills? Switch lists? Dispatchers? I had a belly full of that when I worked for a real railroad. I sure don't want any of that in my hobby!!!! Crew callers? That phone call that wakes me from a sound sleep? No way, brother. I'm in this for fun and relaxation. I can see where some folks get caught up in it to such an extent that a hobby becomes an obsession.
lionelsoni I'm afraid that "G" is not a "particular" scale, but any of several scales, ranging from 1/20.3 to 1/32...
I'm afraid that "G" is not a "particular" scale, but any of several scales, ranging from 1/20.3 to 1/32...
Unfortunately, you are right -- which is why I lost interest in G "scale."
I think a better question is "how many of us actually have the room to run protoypically?" At 9 by 15 max I certainly don't. The original section of my layout was 2 O27 ovals on a 4 by 9 table. I later built a large "U-shaped" extension on a 12 inch shelf that gave me 1 staging track for assembling my trains, but otherwise it isn't much use. My plans for a RR refit include extending the ovals with bridges to the outer edges of the "U" and having 2 sidings in the center for street running, but that still wouldn't give me much of a train for point to point running. 50 cars would be nose to tail on a layout that size.
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
That wouldn't be for me. I'd build and run my trains for the pleasure of myself and others and for the wide eyed wonder of our youngins.
arkady lionelsoni: I'm afraid that "G" is not a "particular" scale, but any of several scales, ranging from 1/20.3 to 1/32... Unfortunately, you are right -- which is why I lost interest in G "scale."
lionelsoni: I'm afraid that "G" is not a "particular" scale, but any of several scales, ranging from 1/20.3 to 1/32...
I Respectfully Disagree with both of you, "G" IS a PARTICULAR SCALE, one of about 6 or 7 that all run on Gauge 1 TRACK. I have seen the list of various scales that run on Gauge 1, and "G" Either 22.5:1 or 24:1, I don't recall which. There are other SCALES such as "A" and "F", IIRC.
"G" is a designated scale, but has commonly, and incorrectly been used to lump together all trains that run on gauge 1 track. This is similar to the use of "Crescent Wrench" which is a BRAND, not a TYPE, to refer to an "Open End Adjustable Wrench", or saying "Kleenex" which is also a brand, when refering to Facial Tissue.
"G" is a scale, one of many that all operate on the same gauge 1 track, which has been one of several stumbling blocks that this gauge has had to deal with, annd caused many headaches and confusion. Even with all the various types, 027, semi-scale, Scale, we in "O" still don't have as rough as our brothers(and Sisters) in Gauge 1.
I went searching on the Garden Railways forum, and finally found a list of Gauge 1 Scales, here it is:
Confusilating aint it?" />
We did have letter designations, it just hasnt caught on...
F = 1/20.3 on 64mm track for standard gauge
Fn3 = 1/20.3 on 45mm track for 3' narrow guage
G = 1/22.5 on 45mm track for 1 meter gauge track~or~3' suido-scale narrow guage
H = 1/24 on 45 mm track for 3'6" gauge track
A = 1/29 on 45mm track for 4'-something guage suido-standard gauge
#1 = 1/32 on 45mm track for scale standard gauge
How many of you have ever heard of these in polite conversation?
I do operate my S Gauge layout. I have a schedule and run different types of trains (through trains, way freights, ect) and I have industries on the layout that accept a certain type of car.
I don't use a time table, nor written waybills, but I do use switch lists. The trains run in sequence and I vary the lighting to indicate day or night according to when the run is taking place.
In my opinion, they are your trains and you can play (yes, I said "PLAY") with them any way you want to. This particular way of playing with them has held my interest for over 35 years, so it works for me. What ever works for you is okay in my book.
Little Tommy
I
I try to incorporate a prototypical "style" to running my trains, but do not have the ability (read space) to make up and break down consists, or tend to individual industries.
However, I can argue that since today's Class 1 railroads only seem interested in running coast-to-coast, shunning their traditional trackside customers for Asian containers, perhaps I am operating in a prototypical manner. In today's railroading, you would pretty much have to model a branch line, or regional rr, to incorporate those industries serviced.
So, while my rr depicts hotshot Chessie R97's and Q317's rolling endlessly through my towns, in my mind the Winchester & Western, George's Creek, and South Branch Valleys of the world made my consists happen off-line.
challenger3980 I went searching on the Garden Railways forum, and finally found a list of Gauge 1 Scales, here it is: Confusilating aint it?
Confusilating aint it?
Yes, it is. Not so much for the modeler as to the manufacturers, though. I got very tired of manufacturers who advertised anything that runs on #1 gauge track as "G scale," without regard to which of the various scales you've listed actually apply.
So, yes, Challenger, you are correct -- "G scale" does have a specific meaning (I modeled in 1:22.5). But very few makers seemed to understand that, or even care.
arkady,
Unfortunately, it is not just the scale differences, but other things such as all the different coupler types & heights, and as I recall there was/is some inconsistencyregarding motor wiring polarity, some locomotives running opposite directions with the same track polarity.
Large scale trains are really interesting, but can be very Challenging. To keep most things compatable, a modeler almost has to stick with just one or two manufacturers, or get very creative.
We run our layout prototypically ... prototypical of 1953-1959 basement operations!
Our family layout is set up to be run semi-prototypically. And what I mean by that is that the layout is basically a loop, but hidden storage areas with turn-arounds (three of 'em) allow the train to leave the loop after a few laps for a "destination" where it can lay over for some time before returning. It's really the best of both worlds.
I have been (slowly) creating a timetable with different "trains" and have been making several sets of train orders for each one. Waybills are too complicated for my taste (not to mention, we have a lot of duplicates...."wait, which 17004 gets put in this consist again?" It's more like, "train 55 will set out three covered hoppers at Pacific." So when you are making up no. 55 in the yard, you now know you need to find three hoppers to put in there,
This works pretty well for me, because I enjoy switching. Since I often operate alone, I don't worry about scheduling meets, or which direction has "priority". I just run down the timetable (such as it is) and run the trains one after another. And when I get tired of that, I can still just run them in circles around the loop!
You don't have to have a large layout with several scale miles of track in order to have realistic operations. Not at all. That's why we have selective compression and fast clocks. It's all about simulation. You can have 1 lowly industry and 3 tracks with no runarounds in a small bedroom and still operate it as it was an industry on a mainline somewhere. You don't have to run a whole country.
I like realistic operations and realistic details. I also prefer to hold selective compression at a minimum if possible but obviously in O scale this is difficult to do in a small area. I am completely happy working a switch list but I can see how this could get tiring if you worked on a real railroad and that was your day job.
I have visited some places that run O Scale operations in a very realistic manner to include way bills, etc. One place, The New York Society of Model Engineers in New Jersey has a very detailed and large layout. They run at scale speeds, though the runs are not to scale length between locations. Much in the way Ellison, etc. would run their railroads, they have certain nights of the week where they do a complete operation, other nights are dedicated to maint., etc. Very few individuals would have the resources, much less the room to run such an operation. For me, I am happy with the one room my bride has allowed me to have.
While I enjoy visiting clubs like the NYSME, I have found that to many of the scale folks, three rail trains are just toys and they want nothing to do with them. I have also found many of us three railers (and flyer guys) just enjoy running our trains regardless of the third rail, or the rivet count for that matter. I have also read a certain "O Scale Trains" magazine that had a very highly detailed 3-rail layout in one of the photo spreads....some folks wrote the editor that they would cancel their subscriptions should another "Toy Train Layout" show up in the pages.
I guess you could get a sort of "Poll" if you were to find the number of folks doing scale model railroading verses the number doing either three rail/hi-rail, but you probably would not get a good sampling of the scale folks on this site. And to that end, you would have to look at all the different sites for both communities. Perhaps a easier method would be to ask such places as Atlas and Weaver how much of their clientele is O-scale and how much is O-gauge.
Dennis
TCA#09-63805
I operate my small layout but the operations are very basic. My layout depicts a copper mining railroad so every operating session begins and ends with taking "loaded" ore cars from the mine to the mill and taking the "empties" from the mill back to the mine. In between I use operating rolling stock to unload cans of milk at the milk platform, dump coal at the boiler house, logs at the mine, and a bag of mail at the depot...or anywhere else I feel like tossing a bag of mail. This activity takes place on a layout that is only 4X8 feet with an L -shaped extension measuring 4 'X 6'. It is surprising how much fun a person can have with a small layout. I do not use any schedule, switch lists, or any other type of formal operation. I simply operate the cars that I feel like at any given time. When I have guests, I let them choose which cars and accessories will be used. By definition, our trains are toys so they are designed to be played with(since we are adults I guess we should use the word "operate"). Unlike the scale model railroaders, we have the advantage of equipment that actually dumps, loads, and in the case of the milk cars-a scale figure does the work. I know many people like to just watch trains run while others like to have very detailed operations.The great thing about toy trains is the fact that we can run our trains any way we like and everyone can enjoy the hobby.
Karl
arkady challenger3980: I went searching on the Garden Railways forum, and finally found a list of Gauge 1 Scales, here it is: Confusilating aint it? Yes, it is. Not so much for the modeler as to the manufacturers, though. I got very tired of manufacturers who advertised anything that runs on #1 gauge track as "G scale," without regard to which of the various scales you've listed actually apply. So, yes, Challenger, you are correct -- "G scale" does have a specific meaning (I modeled in 1:22.5). But very few makers seemed to understand that, or even care.
challenger3980: I went searching on the Garden Railways forum, and finally found a list of Gauge 1 Scales, here it is: Confusilating aint it?
I always assumed that "G" got it's moniker from LGB, "Lehman Gross Bahn" or Lehman Big Trains, therby making "G" more of a brand name rather than an official gauge. Like Standard was in the oldey days except LGB didn't try to change the track. The funny thing is that LGB catalogs advertised many of their trains as narrow gauge, especially the small tank engines. So the typical "Stainz" loco powered starter set should have been a Gn and the large mallets should have been standard gauge. (At least if you follow advertising logic anyways.) I also have a pair of "G-scale" trains in a holiday motif that are really O gauge in size. Talk about an odd wheelbase! My Lionel 4-4-2 NYC Atlantic could eat them for breakfast! lol
Doug,
I think N Scale is either 148:1 or 160:1 depending on the manufacturer. I got this information from the Internet, so it must be right.
As we all know, there is a lot of Lionel stuff that is not 48:1. Some of it is 64:1 with O gauge trucks. I don't think much of it historically has been 48:1. I know that a lot of the longer cars have been shortened, and that the GG-1s are much shorter than scale. It is OK with me. I am playing with trains just like I did when I was a kid, and enjoying myself immensely. I am running conventional and that so far is all I feel I want to fool with. I am an electrical engineer, so I am better equipped than most to deal with the electronics, but, so far, conventional suits me just fine.
BTW, I totally agree with you about the heft of O gauge trains. The little trains don't do much for me. I think they are for guys that like to build scenery, which is not something I have ever done. And BTW I am staying away from the 7.5" gauge trains and 12"/ft gauge and things like that to avoid getting bitten by those bugs. I like to watch the train run around the track and I wire the switches so the operation is automatic and I don't have to do anything but watch. On the last carpet RR I had, it originally took the train 22 minutes to make a complete circuit of the layout. Then I added a stepper switch to control one of the turnouts, and it would randomly switch the turnout one way or the other, and the time for the train to complete a circuit of the layout became essentially infinite. The time for a complete circuit was done by calculation rather than by observation.
On my newly desinged 12 X 40 ft layout, I do nothing but operation, there is about 170 ft of single track mainline with a yard at each end and one in the middle.. There are about 14 differant industries to switch and can handle about 100 cars on the layout at one time. I have it set up for anywhere between 1 to 4 operators. There are two reversing loops at each end to make constant running an option for when people come to see the trains but I found on my old layout that whenever I ran it alone I would just run one train at a time and switch it.
I operate using a switch list. each train has a number and goes out in order. Trains run from either one of the yards to the center yard. , or from yard to yard. Each train is about 5 cars long and can take upwards of ten to fifteen minutes to complete each run.
This is my dream layout and has been in the planning stages for 8 months. The operating scheme is the same used on my other layout. track is about half done at this time.
As a side note I am using 027 track with042 minimum curves and gragraves 100 inch radius turnouts and Lionel 042 turnouts. I use mainly tubular track with gragraves thrown in wherever I could. This is a hi-rail layout with a scale "feel" to it but I use 027 rolling stock. All of my frieght cars have added weight and has been weathered. I come from a sclae backgroung (ho) and enjoy this but do not consider myself a rivet counter. I do this because this is what I enjoy. I use conventional control with MTH handheld Z4000 Remotes and a block system. I paln on doing a full signal system also.
I just remembered something from my n gauge days - I seem to I recall 1:148 was British N scale (Graham Farish and their ilk) and 1:160 was American...a;though my Tomix 'Thomas' trains seemed to be 1:160...
There is enough unintentional naivete as to what constitutes "scale" in nearly all the scales. In middle age when I returned to O after being in G ( or whatever it is 1:29 or 1:32 of beyond) I had to be reeducated in that I assumed (of course incorrectly) that O was O. My definition came from childhood with O-27 being the predominated sizing or compression, and now I find I have to look at the fine print. From the outside this O scale may seem like an eccentric's day dream. Another issue is what a brand is and is not.... My sympathies are with my peers that are just reentering the hobby deal with god knows how many branding labels, or internal market lines, beginning with Lionel which has so many I have lost count.and now MTH.. There seems to be a new MTH hybrid line neither Proto 1 or 2 ..simply sounds? How about a conventional line of products? Why do I suspect there would not be a big disparity in cost between a MTH conventional and a Proto 2?
Of course I am not inferring choice is a bad thing, nor am I a Luddite but..to be honest, I have lost track of what internal brand of a line means what, what it includes and what it doesn't. You need a pocket dictionary. It would be a good topic in of itself for newcomers..I suppose you could look at the cost and say, "well, that must have all the bells and whistles.." but with escalated costs I don't know if cost is even a measuring stick unless you have Williams or what have you, let alone is that top of the line, third from the bottom or what? What strikes me as another goofy thing..just a quirk are those advertisers who write an ad that simply has a list that says Lionel ATZX 1410..and so forth on and oh, yes..uh.by the way,.now what the heck is is that? The funny thing is that O has standards but nobody follows them. I think they are in the same dusty warehouse that the Lost Ark is is in.
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