OK Here is the Scenario; A while ago I picked up a 1960’s era battery Marx litho train set, while I don’t have any real issue with the plastic battery engine I decided to go all mechanical and all metal in my future collecting, which now includes a pre-war Marx M-10000 Mechanical to go with a Mechanical Commie Vanderbilt set and a Mechanical Lionel Rail Zeppelin.
I am currently building a small two level O-27 track layout and I want to get really OLD school on it, IOWs NO modern roll scenery, NO hideous Lionel Fastrack, NO plasticville buildings etc, but my question is this:
Are there any good sources (books? online? photos?) on just how model RR layouts were built and sceniced back around WW2???
My frame of reference for experience only begins in the early to mid 70’s, but going back to the 40’s or before that gets really hard to find any reference materials on what was used and how those pioneers actually added scenery to their layouts.
So I’m asking here, anybody got any ideas or advice?
Have fun with your trains
I have several years worth of Model Builder and Model Railroader magazines from the 30's and 40's. You may be surprised to know that I find that some of the work back then can rival even the best stuff today and in many ways I think we've lost many things. Materials used were different but there was alot of creativity and hard work. Very few of the layouts actually used store bought track as it just wasn't realistic enough. One picture has a caption that states that all of the hills and raised portions of that particular layout were built with asbestos!!! Don't try that!
Every issue had a scratch build how to article or 2 in it and they ranged from track work, to buildings, to machining your own model steam engine from scratch! A current magazine could very easily run an article series titled "The Lost Art" and revive many of these old topics and I guarantee many people would find them interesting and give it a go again.
Many buildings were done out of cardstock but were painted and weathered. Other things were just drawn on representations of windows and doors. Some though were very realistic scratch built and even the drawn pieces looked like the work of artists. Check out ebay for old issues of Model Builder Magazine. Look specifically pre-1950.
I applaud you for embarking on a project I once considered attempting. I was going to use battery powered engines so I wouldn't have to retrieve a "wind-up" engine that ran out of "steam" in an awkward to reach place. Another modeler told me that part of the fun of using mechanical engines is learning how far each unit would travel on X number of turns of the key and thus making the stopping point more predictable. Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.
I did such a layout and used the table top to paint on ballast, grass and roads. I got a Girard station and a Marx freight house and crane and used the Marx Ranch House to add a ranch , the same for the old crossing signals ( that sound like telephone bells) In short I had a blast ...it's small but alot of fun..my grandkids prefer it to the Highrail layout.. There are cardboard house kits out there that are surprisingly good. I know you'll enjoy this project..If I had to do it over again..I would. The layout looks like the one I had in 1955-56 that my Dad built which was probably typical. for it's time. High tech stuff like grass matts, foam and all that were far into the future..tunnels were more like culvert pipe with painted on rock etc.Sure there were advanced concepts back then but from my own experience they were few and far between. The recent CTT old school layout used materials that weren't around back then..With slot and tab couplers, my fingers did the walking and not uncoupling sections. it's a different world but one that is more toy than prototypical but it has real charm, colorful cars and reasonable (Marx ) prices.
Nothing is more fairly distributed than common sense: no one thinks he needs more of it than he already has.
Thanks guys, I dont think I'll have to worry about retrieving an un-wound loco as the layout will be very small to start with, if I can, I may add a wider base with a second loop but for now, I tested my rail zeppelin under the upper level supports (bent framing strap anchors). only had to adjust a couple supports to avoid the key if left in, but the M10000 key sticks way out, and will definelty foul the supports, hence my thinking to add a second outside loop, Its not the costs as O-27 track is dirt cheap, its the storage space, which is always a problem for me. This layout when not in use will be stored hung against a wall. Another good reason to go "old school" minimalism on this layout.
1) Frank Ellison.
2) John Allen.
Gather everything you can on the Delta Lines and the Gorre & Daphetid. Old school as it gits.
Interesting topic, guys. Carl (Swanson) and I were talking about a really old-school layout just last week, though we were thinking 1950s rather than 1940s. I think a layout like this could be a really interesting project, but if you really want to turn the clock back, be prepared to work with some materials that are unfamiliar to many of us - sawdust grass (you'll probably need to dye it yourself), oil-based paints, plaster over screen wire, and brush-painted (and lettered!) cardstock structures. You could use some vintage mass-produced metal buildings, either painted or lithographed, and metal autos. Since you're thinking clockwork, you don't have to try to find cloth-insulated wire.
If you move the clock forward a decade you can take advantage of the early plastic structures, but ground foam, plaster gauze, and other materials are still off-limits.
When John and I did the retro railroad, we intentionally chose to use modern materials because we thought we could still achieve a retro look with less effort (and mess), and that readers would enjoy that approach. Good luck to you if you decide to go truly old school, though. It will be an adventure.
Thanks for reading CTT,
Terry
Against a wall sounds like a novel way to store a layout. In my youth I had a small layout mounted on casters and rolled it under my bed (gave the boogeyman something to occupy himself with}. It was a Marx army train and I had a ball with that thing! All my scenicking was done with paint and a vivid imagination.
fifedog 1) Frank Ellison. 2) John Allen. Gather everything you can on the Delta Lines and the Gorre & Daphetid. Old school as it gits.
That state of the art to me
Let me try to explain this in NASA terms, if today's layouts represents the Space Shuttle era, Ellison and Allen represent the Apollo era, what I'm looking for goes before Gemini and Mercury, I'm looking for Penamunde V-2's falling on London White Sand Proving Ground era layouts
I found some pics online from another small retro layout just like what I have in mind, painted grass and roads, tin litho buildings NEAT! Need to take some pics next.
For some of the looks, you may want to check into some old catalogs. If you do go the route of some card stock structures, just remember to paint both sides as it will warp if only one side is painted, or too much paint on one side. I am sure there are some other hints from folks here. Some of the old "Model Builder" articles have some great information. K-line used to have a book on model train layout building, which was a compilation of some of the ideas and articles from yester year. I have a copy somewhere around here.
You may want to get some of the old Lionel tin tunnels in Standard gauge that will allow for your width requirements. They can easily be placed on the layout and then removed for storage.
Good Luck and please post some pics when done.Dennis
TCA#09-63805
One perspective that may be worth considering, that I alluded to earlier is that Ellison's layout as well as catalog layouts, based on my own, as well as my friends layouts (that our father's built) were advanced for their time, which makes them, in turn, memorable.Most home layouts I saw were not so elaborate.. Even the Lionel display layouts were not very Hi-Rail like l except for the occasional crudely painted paper mache mountain
Most grass was painted, as was ballast roads etc...on home layouts as Dad was not an artiste..a lot of layouts didn't have this painted surface, it was simply a board. A good question to ask is what was a typical home layout, versus a catalog layout., as a choice before beginning.
Just the research alone is fun...Hafher Trains which I have are also wonderful wind up's and with a little fiddling with the slots and tabs I can couple them to the Marx cars ( all four wheel)..Manual lift bridges, manual cranes, manual signals etc are to be found for the 190-1950's era. It really adds that toy like atmosphere.
I think that is exactly the question I was trying to ask, my goal is not to create a Frank Ellison or John Allen level of realism layout but much more what a typical family layout of that era would have been like, Here are the pics I found online hope the OP doesnt mind that i borrowed them:
Now I have a guidepost, time to start working
Don't forget, during the war, Lionel produces some cardstock cars. I believe some of those can be found in some of the Model Builder mags.
I second the Model Builder magazines. Great resources for DIY buildings, and cars.
Kurt
You can get all of the Model Builder issues on CD now for $50. It is advertised in the newest CTT issue in the new products section. You'll find many very good pictures going back to the mid 30's and you'd be surprised just how realistic many of them are. In many ways the average postwar layouts were more whimsical than the earlier ones. Many of those older layouts used Lionel T Rail track.
It's out of print now, but we published a book on Model Builder several years back. The ISBN is 0-89778-446-4. It's a combination of "best of" articles plus articles that Roger Carp and I wrote about the magazine.
Another thing to consider is just as we have hi-rail and toy layouts today, we had them back in the day. Two guys could build authentic 1940s layouts but end up with very different styles.
Old School Layout 1st go around, 1st mock up just to see how I'd like it, told you it was small, but with wind ups you really dont want too big a setup.
Decided to try adding a third loop around this set up to run my M-10000 which means extending the baseboard and reorienting the track, so up comes the track and a better job of painting up the baseboard before fixing the track back down again, same set up just adding a dedicated loop around to allow older Marx locos to run without any switches. More pics as I go.
This has been an interesting thread to follow. Thanks for sharing the photos and great job on the progress. A layout doesn't have to be huge or hi-rail to be fun.
Joe
If you want to see some really unique and imaginative "kitbashes" check-out some of Vick's creations on our sister site "Garden Railways Mag".
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I like how this builder used thick blocks of styrofoam to approximate the old steel bases that Lionel would have used. That's using modern tech to solve a very old problem and it works! As I mentioned in another thread, Lionel made their scenic railways from steel and many tunnels were pressed felt with steel portals and either steel or brass liners. Based on how costly and difficult building a steel layout would be for many of us, styrofoam is a valid substitute. It keeps with the spirit if not a perfect reproduction.
Some basics: Tunnels were either steel or felt and hand-painted. (Not the thin felt squares you find at craft stores, but rather the thick heavy duty roofing felt you find at home centers.) Roads were usually cream colored paint directly on the table surface. Grass was green sawdust sprinkled on green paint, dirt was natural color sawdust and/or terra cotta paint. Trees were either made from sisal (or hemp) rope or painted sponges on dowel rods. (see thread on making pre-war trees) Bushes could be sponges with sawdust on them or just sponges painted green. Small tufts of sisal rope dusted with green sawdust make excellent flowering plants. You simply cut some tiny slivers of sponge and superglue them to the tips of the flocked rope "leaves" then paint the sponge "flowers" red, yellow or white (the only colors Lionel ever seems to have used) and you have some excellent pre-war style roses. Mount them on wood, foamcore or thick cardboard bases that have been flocked with sawdust grass. Low flower beds can be made from thin rings of sponge painted green. Then add red, yellow and white highlights to get the kind of circular or half circle borders you see on station terraces around the flag pole and flower pot. Rocks were usually scraps of hand painted felt. Walkways on villa plots were paper glued to the wood bases. Backdrops were made from pressed board (hardboard) painted and shaped as mountains or left rectangular for hand-painted sky backdrops.
Currently, I'm making a floral base for an MTH vibrating flag pole. I modified the pole by removing the battery compartment at the base and boring two holes beside where the fahnstock clips are in the upper half of the unit. With the battery contacts out of the way, you can run the wires through the 2 holes in each section of the stepped base and wire directly to the fahnstock clips. I found that there's ample room to divert even a 16 gauge wire around the perimiter of the mechanism plate and down through the contact holes to the lower level. With the battery compartment removed, the wires come straight through the bottom rather than laying accross the steps. I then superglued the whole assembly to a disk of foamcore cut 3/4" larger than the flag pole base. You can either cut a trench through the foamcore for the wiring, or add a second ring of foamcore to make a second level for your garden. I painted 4 symetrical paths on the foamcore, and filled the spaces between with "grass". I finished it off with red rose bushes as described above and it looks more like a pre-war accessory than it did before.
Stations, villas, bungalows, etc. can be reproduced convincingly with posterboard if you're artistic or at least have some drafting skills. You simply draw the walls and roofs with a ruler, then cut the pieces out with scissors and an x-acto knife. I used photos to get an approximation of the sizes, but now I have David Doyle's Standard Catalog of Lionel Trains 1900-1942 as a reference and that book has measurements. Windows can be easily produced in quantity by drawing them on your computer in paint or photoshop and printing them on 65lb cardstock. Or, make them from posterboard just as you did for walls and roofs. Using spray paints (satins or flats work best) on the posterboard creates the look of tinplate. Taller buildings I reinforced with balsa or basswood strips. Bases I made from plywood, thick corrugated cardboard or foamcore with a wrap of posterboard to look like bent and jointed steel. Embellish with home made parts or buy replacement or reproductions like station signs and light fixtures. Coupled with original or reproduction lamps and accessories these buildings look pretty convincing.
Becky
Trains, trains, wonderful trains. The more you get, the more you toot!
Looks great and would be a lot of fun to watch in operation. I see you found some two rail O tinplate track which is great. I was lucky enough to find some Hafner switches and track. If you add a Hafner loco, the two rails have a purpose as they ( the locos) are built with a trip lever that bounces over the ties and rings a bell..how's that for a sound system? (Lol) I have the Rail Zeppelin as well and it is surprising how far it will go along on one wind. Over in the U.K they developed a spring governor I read about in Garden Railroad magazine as some of our U.K brethren have large garden railroads that are spring powered which is fascinating and I'd love to learn more about this. Some of the roads are pretty impressive or simply, well..simple.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=di8buDR8vrw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR9vyhnfi9E
The 2 rail track came with the battery powered set (engine on lower level) I decided to use it one the upper level which will be wind up dedicated, I was originally planning to use only the Schilling Rail Zeppelin on it. The Marx battery set w/ box was what got me going on this whole thing, I found it at an antique shop, I've always been fascinated by the litho stuff, the owner offered what I considered a very fair price (less than what I've seen since on evilbay) and next thing I know I'm looking for layout plans. This one is from a layout on Youboobtube that is also doing the tinplate thing, only his stuff is way better than mine (so far )
What kind of pulling power does the battery loco have? Hmmm..traction tires? The lithography got me hooked as well. I went from S, to HO to G, to O and it's funny but this minimalist approach has such antiquated charm, I am thinking of selling off my other stuff.
The battery engine is surprisingly strong, no traction tires just power going to the front wheel but it can pull 5 litho cars at speed around the layout, it uses 2 D cells, I had to fabricate a replacement brass rod bracket to hold the battery in place after the original came lose and broke when I tried to reattached it. Its alot more powerfull than the wind-up Vanderbilt, fully wound it can only really manage 2 or 3 cars, but I've already read that these old winders can loose spring strenth with age.
wallyworldPenny Trains (Becky)---- I have some old drive mechanisms whose fate I have been pondering. They came from Marx diesels whose bodies were a wreck. In your comments, I noticed your familiarity working with card stock. I have been thinking of a "one off" project to create a interurban body to sit atop of the old mechanism, and have seen a card stock Steeplecab body kit as well as houses etc. Have you ever tried fabricating a piece of rolling stock from card stock..? I know in the "old days".this was common. Have you ever tried this and if so, how did it work out?
I've never tried it with functioning engines or cars, though I have built a few static steamers. Most notably, the Big Thunder Mountain Railway engine from disneyexperience dot com (If I put in actual html, aol will call me a spammer. So I have to spell things out) and the Himalayan cog railway engine from Cannon Creative Park. (Cannon also has a black GG1 and 2 Japanese steamers.) Try Spacestation42 and iceberg links for excellent lists of free paper model websites. The iceberg list isn't updated anymore but the links are still good. The Disney experience also has the Main Street Station from Disneyland in something close to "big" S-gauge. Paper model designers tend to worry more about the ease of construction rather than exacting scale dimensions so keep that in mind. At 3 1/2 feet long I display the Disneyland station with Standard Gauge.
I do remember seeing a steeplecab somewhere of a European design. But I can't remember which site it was. Either way I know I got there from either the ss42 dot com or iceberg links pages so you should locate it fairly easy. Google card model and paper model when you search for kits. Say something like "train card model" and/or "GG1 paper model". Just remember that you can model a shell only, mechanical stressors still need a strong frame and real wheels.
A few notes for anyone who's never built a paper model. There's a plethora of paper models out there on just about every subject you could think of and a lot you wouldn't! A lot of them are free to download but some aren't, like the excellent models at scalescenes dot com. They have bridges, roads, abutments and platforms along side their stations, factories and houses. (Well worth looking at even if you're not buying. And no I don't get a commission! :) ) Last week I downloaded and enlarged from HO to G a photorealistic model of Abraham Lincoln's Springfield Ill house from build your own main street dot com. Generally all you need is Adobe Acrobat Reader, which is free, and a printer to get started.
Printing: Laser printers are best. But if you're like me you have to make do with an inkjet. Just know that the inkjet toner isn't colorfast and any tiny little molecule of moisture will start the colors running. I like to use 65 pound cardstock for my models. I've tried using 110 pound card but it just made my printer wear out faster. You would think that 67 pound would be stronger than the 65 but I've found the opposite to be true. The 67 pound is COVER stock, not cardstock so it's flimsy and sucks up Elmer's glue like a sponge. You can print delicate parts like rooftop ironwork railings on clear overhead projector sheets to save yourself from cutting all those little details by hand. Vellum is a good translucent material for windows but be sure the ink has dried completely before handling or letting the next page come down on top of it in your paper tray. Cardstock is available in a multitude of colors in the scrapbooking and cardmaking sections of your local craft store or at office supply stores.
Building: Card stock is a weak construction material so the bigger you go the more support it's going to need. The first way to do that is to have strong glue tabs that follow the entire length of a joint. But if that's not enough, you may need some balsa or basswood supports inside the structure. Corrugated cardboard, foamcore board and heavy cardboard like the backs of paper tablets or cereal boxes are great too. Anything that's lightweight and sturdy will work. You can even print the parts on regular 20 pound copy paper and glue them directly to balsa backing.
Cutting: I have 3 or 4 types of scissors and a box of #11 blades always at the ready. Cutting card will dull blades quickly so I buy my #11's in bulk. Cut interior parts and openings (windows, doors, gaps between details) with the #11 blade on a self-healing cutting mat. A sharp blade on a cutting mat will flow through the cardstock like butter. Use the scissors to cut out the rest. Sharp manicure scissors with a curved blade come in very handy and are the best way to cut rounded parts. You can often find scissors in sets in either the nailcare section of a pharmacy or in the papercrafting or sewing sections of craft stores.
Scoring and Folding: Scoring glue tabs is essential. Use either a dull blade or a sharp one but be sure to have a light touch. You're just barely scraping the surface so the cardstock will fold better in straight lines. Using a steel ruler is best, but if you have a practiced hand you can do it without. The fold itself will straighten any defects in your cutting line. There are 2 types of folds, Mountain and Valley. A mountain fold means your bending the card down and away from you if you're looking at the printed side of the part. A valley fold is just the opposite, bending the paper up towards you and the printed side. I generally score my valley folds on the front side then flip the part over to fold it down. If you bend slowly, the scoring line will show itself from the back and you can get the fold done easier. Use barbeque skewers or dowel rods to make columns, cylinders and cones. Roll cones from the tip of the cone on a pointed rod like a skewer. Roll columns around dowels and either take the dowel out, or cut it to length and glue the card right to it. Cardstock doesn't like to roll so you may want to print details like small columns on regular 20 pound copy paper and glue that directly to a dowel.
Gluing: I like to use a sharpened bamboo barbeque skewer to do most of my gluing. I've found that the length of the skewer gives me more control, and I can sharpen them with an emory board very easily. (Sharpening is how you get rid of the glue build up.) I apply the glue as a thin film down the area to be joined. If I'm doing it right, it's drying almost faster than I can get the parts together. Glue longer tabs 2 or 3 inches at a time and fold the parts back to keep the edges straight. For larger applications I use a brush. I took 2 pharmacy type amber pill bottles with child-resistant caps and made a set of gluing tools. In one bottle I keep a moderate amount of Elmer's Glu-all. (The school glue is too watery) It dries clear and fast. In another bottle I bored a hole in the lid the size of my brush handle and I keep it filled with water. That and a paper towel to dry the brush off keeps you from running back and forth from the sink. When laminating large surfaces together, I like to use 3M brand non-wrinkling glue sticks. It's a clear glue that goes on easy and won't cause the cardstock to warp like white glue will. (White glue sticks included) It's very handy when you want to apply sheets of black cardstock inside your structures so interior illumination won't leak through. Laminate those parts as you go but you'll need to be sure the glue tabs in the corners line up with the original part, not the backing sheet.
Finishing: It's all in the details. Cutting and assembling things like sanding tubes, steam lines and grab irons can be a pain in the butt. But the more detail you add, the better the model will look just like anything made from plastic, wood or metal. If your kit is of high quality and has things like individual folds for each stair or plank of siding, paper models can be very convincing. Just remember that if you're inkjet printing standard weathering techniques won't work. The weathering has to be in the printing, not added later.
Designing: There are as many 3d modeling programs out there as there are paint and photo-shopping progs. I use metasequoia. It's free and easy to learn but not easy to build models in perfect scale. You have to eyeball everything and texturing isn't easy. The second essential program is Pepakura. Pepakura unfolds the 3d renderings and flattens them into paper model parts. Pepakura also allows you to determine the height of a model in millimeters, decide where you want the glue tabs to be, lets you re-align the parts and add notations and numbers where you want them. Without Pepakura, designing a paper model is nearly impossible. For texturing I use Adobe Photoshop. You can download textures for free from various sites and find everything from wood siding to rust spotted concrete. A texture is just a photo and while you may be successful in making them work with a 3d rendering program like metasequoia, I like to go back-in after the Pepakura stage and finish the parts by cut and paste with photoshop.
So, that's paper model building in a nutshell. Over the years I've designed models of castles and rides from Disney theme parks, a small village of european style buildings for use with Marklin HO and in larger forms with O and G, a Thai train station and a temple from photos I found on the net and a whole bunch of other stuff including a WDW monorail with track. I've also built models from hundreds of designers including an amost complete inventory of the world's rockets including old Soviet R-7's and secret stuff like M.O.L. and the Russian N-1 moon rocket. My collection also includes famous world landmarks, Japanese pagodas and even toxic waste drums that I use in a Three Mile Island commemorative car. You can find a paper model of just about anything out there, all you have to do is search!
I've done cardstock models in the past, architectural models using Strathmore card which is wonderfull stuff, but also card models, battleships actually, they were highly detailed and I blame them for my current eyesight condition LOL. All I can say for any cardstock model is bring alot of patience with you, you cannot rush them.
For my layout I've decided to stick to all metal buildings and accessories, they are just more fun to me. As the above photo shows I got a Marx "Girard Station" with horn and original box, only $30. geez, I'm coming from G where you can't touch a cheap plastic kit for less than $60 these days, so this could turn out to be downright affordable!
BTW Layout expansion complete, its now a huge 3'4" x 4'0", and begun repainting. Will post pics soon.
vsmith I've done cardstock models in the past, architectural models using Strathmore card which is wonderfull stuff, but also card models, battleships actually, they were highly detailed and I blame them for my current eyesight condition LOL. All I can say for any cardstock model is bring alot of patience with you, you cannot rush them. For my layout I've decided to stick to all metal buildings and accessories, they are just more fun to me. As the above photo shows I got a Marx "Girard Station" with horn and original box, only $30. geez, I'm coming from G where you can't touch a cheap plastic kit for less than $60 these days, so this could turn out to be downright affordable! BTW Layout expansion complete, its now a huge 3'4" x 4'0", and begun repainting. Will post pics soon.
Did you have to take out a second mortgage for a layout that size? : ) lol I love small layouts, they're a lot of fun! And clockwork and battery powered trains make you get down on the floor and operate them instead of turning the set on and off with a remote control. Nothing against DCC, I just think we all should have separate "hands-on" layouts to play with too! : )
I like the Girard station, it has excellent litho. And I agree with you that real tinplate is the best way to go if at all possible. For me though, spending 100 dollars on a junker 124 station would be pushing it. So, I faked it until I can lay my hands on the real thing. (Plus it's nice having all of my houses in scale with the trains they're along side of! giggle I know, old argument and scale is irrelevant.) Another thing I faked recently was the AF water tower. I painted a Marx tower black, tuscan, yellow, gray and green instead of pursuing a true original for my P-ville layout. I tend to go after the "look" by whatever means are most rapidly possible then fill in with the actual items as I acquire them. It's just my way of eating the cake before I even buy the oven! : )
I'd love to do the ships at digital navy by the way! Their carriers and battleships are awesome! They look like a lot of fun! I did build Ed Bertschy's (sp?) paper model of a stationary steam engine, but I motorized it and installed wood and plastic parts instead of being a "paper model purist". I installed the motor in the base and I operate it with friction drive against the main wheel. Since I usually display it with the wheel toward the rear, the motor axle sticking out doesn't show. I also made working tinplate style light fixtures, stairs, railings and a boiler to make it a miniature mill complex. I usually hook it up along side my Standard/G powerhouse and create the illusion that it's supplying the power to run the trains. : )
Thanks Becky for all the wonderful information. I want to try something new even if it doesn't turn out and you certainly provided enough info for me to start looking. Aside from the Marx drive, small detail items like a newstand, or mailboxes, or a garage, garden shed would be fun to do for the Hi-Rail layout..Again, thanks for all the info..
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