I have a 6026W whistling tender that will only whistle if the engine (#665) is in neutral. The voltage was set at the exact same level (8.6 VAC) in neutral as it was with the engine running. I am using a modern ZW, which adds 1.5 volts when the whistle is triggered. I watched the tender rollers while the engine was running with the whistle button activated and I did not see any sparks on the tender rollers like I always see when a postwar whistle is activated. The whistle works every time at those same voltages when the engine is in neutral. Any ideas why?
Earl
Earl,
It seems, the running engine is drawing all of the current.
I am not that familiar with electricity.
Some other forum members will tell you the problem.
Ralph
What kind of meter are you using to measure the voltage? Are you measuring it at the track? Are you measuring it for both situations, motor running and motor stopped?
Bob Nelson
Ralph and Bob, Thank you for the replies.
Bob,
I am measuring the voltage at the ZW with one of the add-on volt/ammeters that Lionel used to sell. The engine does not slow down, in fact it speeds up with the added 1.5 volts that the ZW puts out when the whistle button is activated.
Try measuring the DC component at the track, close to the locomotive, while it is standing still and while it is moving.
I'm not a Lionel expert, but it appears everything is working as it should here- the engine speeding up and all. My thoughts are that the tender needs a good cleaning and lubricating. Oil has a tendency to harden and become gummy after a period of time and that the current supplied has a hard time overcoming this added friction in the blower motor. Also dirt, dust cobwebs in the blower fan and housing can reduce the air flow that is required to get the sound- hence higher voltage to get the higher blower speed. Just my thoughts here. Ken
Other then the track or pick-up roller being dirty(also clean the wheels on the truck assembly of the tender) on the tender or it's motor needing a cleaning, it is possible that with the engine rolling down the track that the postwar tender isn't picking up the signal from the new ZW, and that would be an electronic issue with the new ZW.
Lee F.
If the identical voltage waveform is provided to the tender in the two cases, it should perform just the same regardless of whether it is standing still or moving. That is why I suspect that the voltage is not the same in the two cases, even though the meters at the transformer may say that it is.
By the way, doesn't the new "ZW" control the voltage somewhere else than at the place where the meters are?
On the newer ZW's made up to about three years ago, you plugged in the power packs(need two 180 watt power packs minimum) to the transformer, the shell(looks like the old ZW housing) has handles just like the pw ZW and these control the power to the track. Whistle and direction buttons are at the same place as on the pw ZW. The controlling devices or electronics are inside the shell as it is called.
The brand new ZW (made within the past year) that has the meters on it is too new for me to know anything about it.
Thanks, all, for the replies.
I put a scope on the track bus. I was expecting to see the entire waveform move up to indicate the DC offset. The waveform did not move up. The zero point remained at exactly the same voltage level. Here is what happens to the waveform when the whistle is activated. The peak of the top of wave form comes on earlier and the peak of the bottom of the waveform is delayed, thus resulting in a DC offset. The waveform is exactly the same with the engine in neutral, whistle on/off, as it is with the engine moving.
What is odd is the whistle works 100% of the time in neutral and never with the engine running. Additionally, there are no visible sparks under the tender rollers when the engine is moving, so I don't think it is an intermittent problem. I am quite sure I checked the whistle with the engine moving when I first received the engine from Trainz and it was working properly because I always fully check an engine for faults when I receive it. Trainz folks fully check their engines prior to shipment and this engine was exceptionally clean.
When you say that the waveform is exactly the same, I assume that that includes the amplitude of it. That suggests that somehow the tender is losing its connection to the track. Can you rig a lamp on the tender to show whether it is getting track voltage when moving? Perhaps something in the pickup is coming disconnected when there is a fore-or-aft force on the pickup, as when the train is moving.
Here is the latest in the saga of the whistling tender:
1) I removed the whistle and lubed both the upper and lower armature shaft bushings.
2) A wire to one of the rollers had come loose; I resoldered it. The other roller was fine.
3) I returned the tender to the track and it still would not whistle with the engine moving, but would whistle with the engine in neutral. I repeated the attempts several times.
4) I lifted the engine slightly off the track so that it was still electrically connected to the track, but would not move. I could activate the whistle with the engine running but not moving.
5) I tried the whistle again with the engine moving. It worked about 1/3 of the time.
6) I observed the whistle relay to see if the relay armature was trying to move up when I activated the whistle. Every time the relay armature moved up, the whistle sounded, so the contact appears OK. When I tried to activate the whistle without success, the whistle relay armature never moved.
7) I connected a light between the roller wires and ground and ran the engine while repeatedly activating the whistle. The light stayed illuminated and never blinked, so the electrical connections are fine.
8) If I hold the whistle button on with the transformer off and then slowly bring up the power, I hear the relay contact make before the engine starts moving and the whistle will stay activated at any speed until I release the whistle button.
Earl,I have never been able to get my Postwar Whistle Tenders to activate with a modern transformer (ZW or CW-80 or the older style Lionel starter set transformer), they only work with Postwar transformers (LW, KW, ZW). I was never ver concerned with this as I don't run the Postwar stuff on my main layout and use the Postwar transformers on my Christmas layout.Just thought I would toss that bit of jelly on the bread.
So I understand that you have observed the non-operation of the relay when you try to blow the whistle, and that sometimes now it blows when moving and fails sometimes to blow when standing still.
One last electrical thing to try is to see whether you have track voltage on the actual magnet-wire terminals of the relay at a time when it doesn't want to operate. If that is the case, then try looking at the hinge end of the relay armature. There are two small strips of the metal piece that carries the movable contact. They extend into the hinge and are meant to keep the armature in contact with the relay frame. If they are not doing that reliably, the attraction between the armature and the pole piece may be compromised. Why there would be a difference with moving and standing is a mystery still.
Brent,
You hit the nail on the head!
The modern ZW will not activate the whistle while the engine is running.
a separate activation device is needed in order so that the whistle will function, while the engine is running.
I believe lionelsoni can elaborate on this matter.
Ralph,
I have a lot of postwar engines, and to my knowledge, this is the only tender that has a problem blowing the whistle while running. I know that some modern engines have trouble working with Lionel's chopped waveform.
I thought that with a modern ZW in order for a post war whistle to function that a separate controller is needed.
Then again, as I said, I don't know about electricity.
Thank you for the education.
Thanks for the reply. The whistle controller is needed by some postwar transformers to activate some modern whistles.
Be sure to check the solder joints on the relay itself. Not just a visual inspection; wiggle them! I have a 1666 that ran intermittently: come to find out, the solder joint to the pickup was a "cold" joint. Looked OK, but came right off when I pulled on it. Resoldered, problem solved. Just recently, similar problem with a switch machine on the layout--would only work when someone was leaning on the table! Turns out one of the joints was cold, and was only held in place by the tension of the wire against the contact. Only found that one because I happened to touch the wire while I was poking around in the machine. In both cases, a very slight change in position or vibration was enough to open a tiny gap across the joint and cause a loss of conductivity. I would not take it for granted that the soldering job on the relay is good just b/c it is original.
Also, are you absolutely sure that the wire to the center rail pickups is intact? Remember that the roller tilts slightly when the train begins to move, and if there is a fracture in the wire, this slight change of position my be enough to open it up.
If the loco is speeding up when you operate the whistle control, you are at the second position of the control. The first position puts DC on the track to operate the relay. The second position shorts the diode with a resistor and reduces the amount of DC on the track. In the second position, the relay will not pull in. It will hold, but not pull in. If you move the whistle control too fast, you may not be giving the relay time to operate. Also, having the engine running will reduce the power to the whistle relay. Try moving the whistle control slowly and watch the whistle relay to see when it pulls in.
Bruce Baker
My understanding is that he's using a modern "ZW", which uses asymmetrical phase control to create the DC offset, not the rectifier-resistor scheme of postwar transformers.
I believe that he has already verified that the tender is getting track voltage, whether moving or standing still, using the lamp that I suggested adding for that purpose.
Earl, if you will,
I know you have a problem, but I'm going to add a little levity by suggesting to add a 5U4G vacuum tube.
Back in the day they solved many a T.V. problem.
You are right, Bob, as usual. I missed the word "modern" in his post.
servoguy You are right, Bob, as usual. I missed the word "modern" in his post. Bruce Baker
servoguy You are right, Bob, as usual. I missed the word "modern" in his post. I know this thread is old, but I encountered when I did a search. I have a similar, though not altogether identical problem. When I test my postwar whistle tenders with a postwar transformer, they work fine. But when I use a modern ZW (not the latest one, but the one with the bricks), operation is erratic. The tenders were all re-wired, cleaned, and lubed. So, I know for sure there isn't a problem with them. Most times with the modern ZW, the whistle or bell buttons activate the whistle relay, but the relay sticks and the whistle continues to blow. Yet on the postwar transformers this doesn't happen.
I know this thread is old, but I encountered when I did a search. I have a similar, though not altogether identical problem. When I test my postwar whistle tenders with a postwar transformer, they work fine. But when I use a modern ZW (not the latest one, but the one with the bricks), operation is erratic. The tenders were all re-wired, cleaned, and lubed. So, I know for sure there isn't a problem with them. Most times with the modern ZW, the whistle or bell buttons activate the whistle relay, but the relay sticks and the whistle continues to blow. Yet on the postwar transformers this doesn't happen.
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