Normal 0
In a past issue of CTT I read an article about switches (not turnouts). They showed a modern toggle switch being used to operate a turnout. I was wondering how it could be wired for my Lionel 1122 turnouts on a control panel and have green and red indicator lights. This would save a lot of room since the original control devices are huge and will take up a lot more space than I can afford. I plan to build a control panel with schematic of my track layout with these modern switches located where the turnouts are. This way it will be easy to operate any turnout on my layout with no confusion as to which one I am throwing. Is there a diagram somewhere that would show the wiring needed to accomplish this? Do I need to incorporate relays into this wiring?
Thanks
Terry Thomann Fredericksburg, Virginia That is me on the left. My brother got the train TCA 09-64381
By far the simplest and most compact way to associate your turnouts with your control-panel map is to put a pair of machine screws through the map at the two branches of each turnout. Then use a probe connected to your layout common (the outside rails) to touch a screw head to throw the turnout. The two screws are connected to the appropriate terminals on the turnout, that is, the ones farthest from the switch machine, that are not common.
Unfortunately, the 1122, unlike the 022, gives no electrical indication of its position. The controllers use mechanical shutters which show the last position into which you threw the turnout, but do not respond to any anti-derailing or hand operation that might occur. You would have to go to a lot of trouble to duplicate that feature. It can be done with relays or electronically, in a way that will respond to anti-derailing operation but not hand operation, if you're interested.
It is also possible to do it with an ordinary DPDT switch, but in conjunction with adding a capacitive-discharge circuit to the turnout. This can be a lot of trouble; but gives you constant power to your turnouts along with the necessary immunity from burnout when a train is stopped on a turnout.
What issue did you see the article in?
Bob Nelson
lionelsoniWhat issue did you see the article in?
Bob,
This issue was May 2004 page 68 - 70. I have been collecting back issues and am finding a ton of great ideas.
I like your thought about adding a capacitive discharge circuit to the turnout for constant power to them. I see in the article quoted how they use the switch to control the turnout. I would like to add small red and green indicator lights to my control panel to show the position of the switch. If you can help me design the circuit to do this along with constant power to the turnouts, and protect them from burnout, that would be a huge improvement over the original Lionel controllers. Thanks,
Terry
This is my basic control panel play. Each turnout would have a DPDT toggle switch located where the switch machine is located with a red indicator light located on the curved section and a green light on the straight section. When the turnout is in the straight operation mode the green light would be lit and when switched to the curved section the green would be off and the red light would be lit.Other toggle or push button switches would be used to operate accessories, turn on and off lights and turn blocks on and off. I will need to figure out how to operate the uncoupling tracks with switches also. The layout is under construction and the control panel will be printed by a local sign company onto a material that is a sandwich of two aluminum sheets with a plastic core. I am using one ZW for the two train circuits and will use another transformer for power for accessories and lights.
Terry, I looked up the article. Its treatment of turnouts in the last illustration and the very last sentence is very superficial and, in fact, misleading. You can't control 1122 turnouts that way. Let me ask you some questions, since there are many compromises that may have to be made:
Are you willing to open up and modify your turnouts? The only way that you are going to get an absolute indication of the position of the points is by adding a microswitch to the turnout. Otherwise, the best you can do is to sense which direction the turnout was last thrown electrically, whether by the control panel or by the anti-derailing feature. Is this okay? Would you also be satisfied with the same indication that the 1122 controller gives, that is, the last direction that the controller threw the turnout, regardless of whether the anti-derailing subsequently threw it the other way?
Constant power will also probably require opening and rewiring the turnout, although some have reported success in fishing the necessary wires out without doing that. (I have always had to open them up.)
Are you set on using manufactured switches on your map; or does my probe-and-stud concept appeal to you at all?
Is it important to you not to increase the number of wires between the turnout and the control panel above the minimum two?
Bob, You are asking me to make some tough decisions so here goes.
1. Are you willing to open up and modify your turnouts?
Yes and No. I would be happy with the same indication the 1122 gives. I don't think the anti derailing feature will be used often.
2. Constant power will also probably require opening and rewiring the turnout
I am ok with doing this. I think that constant power would be a great improvement.
3. Are you set on using manufactured switches on your map?
Yes, Only because I think it would look better and because I like the realism of actually throwing a switch to make something happen.
4. Is it important to you not to increase the number of wires between the turnout and the control panel above the minimum two?
No.
I'm not absolutely firm on anything except I do not want to modify the switches beyond a point that they could be returned to original state in the future. So, rewiring the switches is fine. I have 14 turnouts, so this is going to be a lot of work, but it is something that I will enjoy doing. I really want the indicator lights on my track map. If the switch gets out of sync with the lights, that is ok, because all I will have to do if cycle the turnout with my manual switch and it should be back in sync again. Hope this works.
Okay, that information is a big help. However, there is one possible inconsistency: One end of each turnout coil's winding runs under the plastic top surface and is soldered to the center rail. Those two wires must be disconnected from the center rail and run out of the turnout to the capacitive-discharge circuit. There are only two ways that I know to do this; and they both involve some degree of modification that cannot be completely reversed.
The more desirable method is to get hold of and cut the wires above the plastic surface. Then you may need to lengthen them, since there is often no slack between the coil and the hole in the plastic floor. This will involve unwinding a turn or two. Then you can scrape off the enamel and solder the magnet wires to a wire leading out of the switch-machine compartment. I have never succeeded in doing this.
The other method is to take the turnout apart by drilling out all the rivets that hold the plastic-steel sandwich together. This includes the bottom of the frog. After making the wiring change, you can put it all back together with suitable screws, except for the frog. That you have to drill and tap to accept a flathead screw from the bottom. Some folks have also gotten to the wiring by cutting out a window from the steel bottom (with a Dremel). However, I wouldn't be sure that I was cutting in the right place, since the wire routing varies from turnout to turnout.
The inconsistency is obviously that you seem reluctant to modify the turnouts; but you do want the ability to throw turnouts when the track voltage is off, which implies adding the capacitive-discharge feature. What do you think?
Well it looks like if I want to do this and do it right, I'll have to modify the turnouts in a way that is not reversible. Let me take a look at one of these and see what is involved. I really like your plan. It may be that I can live with the turnouts operating without the capacitive-discharge circuit, but if I decide to go that route then taking the turnouts apart might be the only solution and once I do one, I could easily do them all. If I don't do the capacitive-discharge circuit can I still use toggle switches and indicator lights on the panel? What would be involved in getting the lights to work?
Thanks for your help and the interest you have given this project. I still have some decisions to make as far as how complicated I want to get with this. I'm trying to simplify and it almost sounds like I might be making it more complicated. Once it is done though operation would be simple. So If I go with modifying the turnouts I might as well consider the micro switches inside for light indicators. What do you think?
Nice layout! What are the dimensions?
Thanks. It is 14 feet by 10 feet. I'm not sure if everything will fit yet. It is still under construction and I haven't started on the turntable and round house section. I may have to widen it a bit. It is mostly post war 0-27 but the outer loop is 0-34 for my passenger train. The buildings and accessories are a mix of postwar Lionel and modern buildings.
To have the lights on the control panel without modifying the turnouts, you need something to remember the direction in which the turnout was last thrown. In the 1122 controller, that is the little shutter. I can imagine a very special DPDT switch that would do the job, with one set of contacts momentary, for throwing the turnout, and the other maintaining the last position, for operating the indicator lights. Unfortunately, I doubt that such a thing exists.
Alternatively, you can add a contraption to do the remembering. This could be an ordinary relay, set up to latch. That's not a great idea however, since all your relays would forget their switches' positions whenever you shut off power. A latching relay would do the job. These have two coils which move the contacts in opposite directions. Atlas sells a DPDT relay for $13 for small scales: https://secure.atlasrr.com/mod1/itemdesc.asp?ic=0200&eq=&Tp= . Panasonic sells an SPDT (which is all you need in this case) for $6 in the Mouser catalog: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/DS1E-ML2-DC12V/?qs=UO%2fx91QLkSCMGvFpwY64dw%3d%3d . With either of these, you would use a momentary DPDT switch on the control panel. One half of the switch would throw the turnout using the track voltage, just like the 1122 controller does. The other half would operate the coils of the latching relay. Then the relay contacts would operate the indicator lights, of whatever kind you prefer to use (incandescent or LED, AC or DC). You would need a small 12-volt DC supply (as from an HO starter set) to power the relay coils; but one supply is enough for any number of relays, since they draw no current except at the instant that you throw the turnout (unless you also use that supply for the lights).
Another possibility is to use an SPDT switch instead of DPDT, operating both the turnout and the relay with the same contacts. You would have to put a diode (1N4001) in series with each relay coil to get the DC that it needs from the AC track voltage; and you would have to use a lower-voltage relay to compensate for the half-wave rectification: http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=DS1E-ML2-DC5V . This avoids the need for a DC supply and adds the feature that the anti-derailing feature will throw the latching relay and change the panel indication. If you should change your mind, this approach will also work with the stud-and-probe idea, whereas the DPDT version won't. The more I think about it, the better I like it.
I recommend you cut the turnouts up as necessary. They are not collectable and not worth very much. I buy them at the swap meets for $1-3. If you make the modifications that Bob recommends, they will work much better.
Bruce Baker
servoguyI recommend you cut the turnouts up as necessary. They are not collectable and not worth very much. I buy them at the swap meets for $1-3. If you make the modifications that Bob recommends, they will work much better. Bruce Baker
Bruce, I see the wisdom of your suggestion. As a museum director it goes against my grain to modify any antique but as you say these switches are common and cheap so why not. I think with Bob's help I am on to something that will give me a super control panel that will operate efficiently and look great. I also need to find someone with the graphics ability to take my track plan and turn it into a surface that allows me to mount the toggle switches and lights. Anyone have any suggestions on who does that kind of work? I was thinking of taking my track plan and having it printed on aluminum but it is of such a low resolution that it just looks terrible when I try to enlarge it. I would like it color coded for my passenger and freight service, also show the streets, buildings and accessories so I can mount on-off and operating switches for them as well. I figure as long as I have plenty of time I can build something that will be simple to operate. Thanks for the suggestions.
Terry, I just took a look at your layout diagram again, to see whether I could locate the place where you might be thinking about putting in a Y-type turnout. My guess is the wye at the north middle of the layout.
But I noticed that you've got two right-hand turnouts together, the west turnout for the wye and one immediately to its west. I don't think that's going to work with 1122s. They need a few inches between them. You could move the entire "block 6" track to the west and put the short straight pieces from one side of its turnouts to the other. That butts a left-hand and a right-hand turnout together; but they are okay with that. If moving that track crowds the accessories, you can just move them to the other side of the displaced "block 6".
Now I just noticed the same problem with the turnout for "block 4". You may have to give up one of those yard tracks.
You said that you are planning to use O27 and O34; but those track pieces look very much like O31 and O42, both in length and radius, and in the number of curved pieces to make a circle.
Bob, you are quite right. Although my drawing doesn't show it I have put some space between the switches. I actually have the track laid out on my board except the leg with the turntable and roundhouse. I haven't built that. All my turnouts have enough space for the switch machines. The software I am using doesn't have 0-27 track so I have had to make this just approximate. It is pretty close though. It is all 0-27 except where the freight line goes under the passenger loop, far right top. I have a few pieces of 0-34 to make the turn work. The outermost passenger loop is 0-42, not 0-34 as I said earlier.
The Y, see drawing below in blue, would, I think work and look better than the right hand turnout that I have there now. The way I have it now works OK but I thought a Y would be better if I can find one. This is basically a place where I can turn a train around. I'm not sure I want to try to build one from scratch. I'm having a hard enough time with store bought track.
My drawing is not very good but it works for planning purposes. I need to find someone to make a better one that I can use on my control panel. Thanks. Terry
lionelsoniA latching relay would do the job. These have two coils which move the contacts in opposite directions. Atlas sells a DPDT relay for $13 for small scales: https://secure.atlasrr.com/mod1/itemdesc.asp?ic=0200&eq=&Tp= . Panasonic sells an SPDT (which is all you need in this case) for $6 in the Mouser catalog: http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Panasonic/DS1E-ML2-DC12V/?qs=UO%2fx91QLkSCMGvFpwY64dw%3d%3d .
I think I am narrowing down what I want to do. I like the latching relay method. I am also now committed to opening up the turnouts to modify them for constant power. I don't think I need the micro switch for the turnout lanterns since I really don't care what they indicate, only what the light on my panel indicates. Can you describe the changes I need to make to the turnout so they have constant power and are operated by toggle switches? Thanks for all your help and good advice on this project. I am thinking this panel might make an interesting article for CTT but it will be a while before I can get it done. I'll credit you for the design. I'd like to start with one turnout for an operational test, then I can modify the rest. Thanks
First, let me make sure you understand that the microswitch would be for the map indication, not for the lantern on the turnout. However, I think the latching relay will be a better solution.
Modifying the turnout: Take off the switch-machine cover and drill out the rivets that hold the plastic top to the steel bottom. There are two rivets on the switch machine, but only one goes through to the bottom. The bottom of the frog is the second; and the bottom of the common terminal is the third. Pry up the tabs that hold the outside rails to the turnout, but only enough to get the bottom plate off, since they will break easily. Identify the two wires, one from each coil, that connect to the center rail. Unsolder them and resolder them to an insulated wire. Insulate the solder joint. Find or make a path for the new wire out of the turnout in a place where it will not be pinched. Drill and tap the frog, starting at the bottom end of the post that you drilled off, for a 6-32 screw. Go ahead and drill and tap it all the way through to the top. Put the turnout back together, using machine screws to replace the rivets and a flathead screw to hold the frog on, just long enough to come flush with the top of the frog casting. The common terminal is no longer needed and can be replaced by a simple screw.
The capacitive-discharge circuit is very simple. It is an electrolytic capacitor, about 4700 or 5000 microfarads (http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102508&filterName=Type&filterValue=Electrolytic+capacitors), with its negative terminal connected to the outside rails and its positive terminal connected to the new wire that you installed. The capacitor's positive terminal is also connected to one side of a number-53 lamp. The other side of the lamp is connected to a 16-volt (approximately) DC supply, whose positive side is returned to the outside rails.
The toggle switch for the panel is the electrical equivalent of the 1122's controller, that is, a momentary SPDT switch with its common terminal connected to the outside rails and its other two terminals connected to the remaining two terminals on the turnout. Look for a switch described in catalogs as (ON)-OFF-(ON), or perhaps (ON)-(ON). The parentheses are essential.
We still have to wire the latching relay and the indicator lights. Would you prefer incandescent or LED lights?
lionelsoniWe still have to wire the latching relay and the indicator lights. Would you prefer incandescent or LED lights?
This is great. I think LED would be better since they are small and will probably last longer than incandescent, right? It will be a few days before I can gather all the materials I need for one complete conversion. I'll get right to work and continue this when I have everything? Radio Shack should have the toggle switches and the LEDs. I think I'll get the latching relay from Panasonic. I'll have round up the screws and get started. I think this is going to be the coolest turnout control. Thanks so much.
If you would post pix of your progress. I think I might pull apart one of my turnouts also.
balidasIf you would post pix of your progress. I think I might pull apart one of my turnouts also.
Will do. I'll post step by step pictures.
Bob
Remind me what the advantage of the capacitive discharge setup. Is it just so the switch can be thrown w/o track power or also to prevent switch burnout if a train is parked on it?
Tucson, AZ (aka the Ol' Pueblo)
Home of the Mt. Graham & Arizona Eastern Boiler Shops
I hope you haven't ordered anything yet. Since you're going with the DC capacitive discharge scheme, the latching relay should be the 12-volt model, not the 5-volt. And, because it is a polarized relay, the positive side of the capacitor should be connected to the outside rails, not the negative. Although they don't call it by that name, you can get the number-53 lamp (and sockets for it) at Radio Shack: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2103782 Note that we are not using the lamp as an indicator, but as a resistor to charge the capacitor. I don't see any momentary SPDT toggle switches in the Radio Shack catalog. They do carry this DPDT: http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062530&filterName=Type&filterValue=DPDT I think a miniature switch would be a better fit for your panel; but you'll have to order that.
lionelsonithe latching relay should be the 12-volt model, not the 5-volt.
I ordered one latching relay. This is the one I ordered. Is this correct. 769-DS1E-ML2-DC12V2A 12VDC SPDT? If not that is OK I only ordered one to try my hand at switch modification. If this all works I can do the rest. I'll be stopping at Radio Shack for the capacitor, switch, #53 lamp and the red and green LED indicator lamps.
lionelsoniI don't see any momentary SPDT toggle switches in the Radio Shack catalog.
I found this switch http://www.mpja.com/prodinfo.asp?number=5009+SW
What do you think of this one?
That looks perfect.
Bob, I am thinking these red and green indicator lights will work on my panel. They are 12 volt. What do you think. Sorry to keep bothering you, but once I find all the parts I can get started.
Indicator lights
Yes, they will work fine. You could also buy naked LEDs and add your own ballast resistors, but those will save you that trouble. It looks like they will each occupy about a 1/4-inch-diameter circle on the panel. Is that small enough?
(Submm) Bob, I see that I didn't answer your questions. The answers are "yes" and "yes", but they are related. You can modify an 1122 or 5121 just for constant voltage; but then you run the increased risk of burnout. The capacitive-discharge circuit protects you from that; so it's a good idea to do both.
I say "increased risk", because you can also burn an unmodified turnout up if you park a train on it with the track voltage turned up. It's just less likely that you would do so.
I am rounding up the parts I need to convert one switch.
I have
1 electrolytic capacitor about 4700 or 5000 microfarads 4700 uF 35V 20% Axial-Lead
Normal 0 1 14.4V 120mA Incandescent Flashlight Bulb bayonet base - I also got a socket so I can change out the bulb if it burns out and so I won't have to solder directly to the bulb.
Normal 0 1 Panasonic Electric Works: Low Signal Relays - PCB 2A 12VDC SPDT 2 COIL LATCHING PCB
1 green and 1 red LED indicator lights
I still need to locate a 12V DC power source. I like your SPDT toggle switch and diode idea better since I wouldn't need the DC power source.
You said I could Normal 0 use an SPST (shouldn't this be a SPDT ) switch instead of DPDT, operating both the turnout and the relay with the same contacts. You would have to put a diode (1N4001) in series with each relay coil to get the DC that it needs from the AC track voltage; and you would have to use a lower-voltage relay to compensate for the half-wave rectification Normal 0 http://www.mouser.com/Search/Refine.aspx?Keyword=DS1E-ML2-DC5V
If this is the case I would still need to get the diode and the relay I have would not be correct. I have ordered Normal 0 SPDT Momentary-Off-Momentary TOGGLE SWITCH so it looks like I still need the diode and the lower voltage relay.
Does this sound correct?
Once I get everything I need I'll start the conversion, but I am sure I will need some additional advice on how to wire the toggle switch, diode and indicator lights. Thanks. Can't wait to get started and see this work.
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