Need help with Lionel O-Guage. 48' Layout has slow and fast spots.

[Mazz]

Hi on the power  bus feeders do you run a positive and a negative to section. Or just a positive?

[JTrains]

lionelsoni

As for feeders, if you still need them, run two 14-AWG-minimum wires in a complete loop around the room.  At each lockon, make two connections of three wires each, the 14-AWG wires in each direction and a short piece of the heaviest wire that your lockon will accept, probably 16 or 18 AWG.  Make another two connections at the transformer, but each of three 14-AWG wires, with the third wire going to the transformer.  I recommend wire nuts for the connections.

While on the topic of feeders, a question I've always been curious about. I've always run feeders of power only - never extra grounds - and that seems to do the trick.  With two ground rails interconnected hundreds of times by the ties, I've always assumed that the current would find its own very efficient way back to the transformer.  I'm curious, though - does anyone also run ground feeders?  Perhaps I'll try this afternoon and see if I can observe / measure a difference...

[traindaddy1]

Bob (lionelsoni), Servoguy and all:

I have often said that I learn something new about trains everyday.

This particular discussion of practical and technical information has been a real pleasure to read.

It's a great hobby.   Thanks for sharing.

 

[servoguy]

If you follow the directions I posted long ago on this thread, you will have good connections between track sections.  If you do what you have been doing, squeezing the open end of the rails, you will never get good connections.  I have been splaying the pins for several years, and for a layout the size of yours, I never have a problem with poor connections.  

[bkminster]

I have the Fastrack and have the same issue.  I used to run Super O without a problem.  My layout is 6X12 so it isn't large.  Very frustrating. 

 

[Easyrider1269]

Thanks for all the advice. I pretty much give up. Hahaha!

The train runs good enough to be left un-attended. On the one fast curve it almost de-rails, but I have the speed set just right. I just have to teach my son how to achieve that settting because he loves to de-rail. I built nice fences on the curves to keep the loco from hitting the walls.

I learned a lot from your tips though....

Thanks!!

[lionelsoni]

I agree that it's a track problem, but mechanical, not electrical.  If the problem were bad connections in the track, the voltage at the transformer would have risen when the train passed the slow spots, because the track resistance in series with the locomotive would have caused the train to draw less current.  This fits in with the fact that your repeated efforts to improve the track conductivity by tightening, adding feeders, and swapping track sections around, have not affected where the slowdowns happen.

The most likely mechanical problem is curves, which are well known to slow toy trains down.  It might be compounded by wheels that are out of gauge (too wide), which exacerbates the binding in curves.  So it would be good to check locomotive and cars individually to see whether there is a particular troublemaker.  But, failing to find such a culprit, you may just have to live with the situation.

I too have an around-the-walls loop, that I would like to run unattended; but it's tricky to find a setting that's not too fast in the tangents but doesn't stall in the curves.

As for feeders, if you still need them, run two 14-AWG-minimum wires in a complete loop around the room.  At each lockon, make two connections of three wires each, the 14-AWG wires in each direction and a short piece of the heaviest wire that your lockon will accept, probably 16 or 18 AWG.  Make another two connections at the transformer, but each of three 14-AWG wires, with the third wire going to the transformer.  I recommend wire nuts for the connections.

[Easyrider1269]

When I run the bus wires around the track, do I connect both ends together at the transformer feed?

[Easyrider1269]

Ok, here is a newbie question about adding feeders. I have my lockons installed every 6 feet around the track. My transformer doesn't have the ability to attach feeder wires directly to it. The way I'm doing it is by twisting a feeder wire to the transformer wires then attaching to the main lockon then run it to the second, then the third then fourth and so on. Like a daisy chain. Is that the correct way? Because the train still runs slow and fast in the same spots...

 

Maybe I need a little tutorial on wiring feeders.... 

[J. Daddy]

Than it worked cool... your sanity is saved, now install feeders at a minimum of 14 AWG every 3 to 4 feet and you will have one smooth running train.

[Banks]

 The simplest thing to do may be to add locon's at the slow spots.

The wire is all ready going past correct?

You ran feeder  wire parallel to the track didn't you? If you make it a complete loop you will reduce voltage drop in the wire. 

[8ntruck]

I've seen specialty 'track pliers' that have a contour to re-shape tubelar rails.  I think it might have been in a Micro-Mark catalog.  I haven't gotten one of these catalogs in a long time, so I don't know if they still carry them.

I've also read about people cleaning the inside of the tubular rails using an appropiately sized drill bit - one that is a slip fit into the rail.

Good luck.

[wyomingscout]

 Okay, you have probably done this already.  But, use a dremel type tool  & clean inside the female ends of the track. Make sure the pins are clean.  Reassemble & use no less than 14 gauge wire to run to the slow spots.

I have used some pretty dirty 027 tubular from ebay & my old stuff from 50+ years ago and it works okay.  I cleaned the outside of the track with my Dremel tool with wire brush - away from the layout to avoid the magnatraction picking up wires - & the inside with another attachment.  It all works very well.

One thing about the fast track; it is easier, in my never to be humble opinion, to adapt it for isolated blocks.  Other than that, I love my old 027 tubular.

Charlie

[Easyrider1269]

Ok. I used the multimeter while the train was running. And yes, the voltage increases exactly at the fast spots and decreases exactly at the slow spots.

So, I think it's pretty much a track problem. How do I make the connections tighter? I've made them tighter with pliers to the point where each section is very difficult to put together. I need to use gloves, they're so tight so I don't cut my hands. I must admit, I didn't tighten all the joints - just where it slows down. Should I tighten every joint on the whole layout?

Is there a special tool that tightens the joint holes? I feel like using regular pliers is ruining the track....

[8ntruck]

Interesting thread, this one.

I'm running both Fastrack and postwar O27, laid loose on a ping pong table (Ping Pong Plains Division of the KATY Central).  In my experience, I don't see much difference in the reliability of either track system.  I've had joints seperate on both types of track - though much more often on the O27 because of its age and the number of times it has been assembled and disassembled. If I would fasten the track down, this problem would go away. 

As far as the amount of cleaning the track needs, the frequency on my layout seems to be more related to the run time on the track rather than the type of track.

The Fastrack is noisier than the O27.  Something to consider there.

Good luck.

[Easyrider1269]

Oh, no - I didn't try that. Let me try...

Even then, I'm still baffled because as I said, I mixed up the track sections so they were all in a different spot and the train still slows and speeds up in the exact same spot. And the shelf is level all the way around. Bizarre. Could electrical wires inside the wall cause interference and resistance??

My kids don't care that the train slows and speeds up - it just bugs me because I know it isn't right....

All else aside, is fastrack more reliable than standard Lionel track?

[lionelsoni]

You say, "oltage is the same all the way around".  Do you mean that you observed the voltage at the transformer terminals, as I suggested, while running the train around the loop and saw no variation as the train slowed down?

[Easyrider1269]

Thanks again for all the helpful tips. So far, except for soldering, I have tried them all with little luck.

Here are the facts:

1. Layout is level

2. Voltage is the same all the way around

3. All track has been cleaned and connecting holes cleaned

4, I have tightened all connecting holes

5. I mixed up all the track so that no section is in the same spot as before.

6. I have 4 additional power feeds around layout.

7. I have tried connection the transformer feeds at other locations.

With all this, the train still slows down and speeds up at the same pounts. I'm pretty much at wits end. Hahaha.

I guess I need to upgrade to fastrack.

Baffled....

[lionelsoni]

With no train running, you will measure everywhere the same voltage as at the transformer terminals, even if the track and wiring resistance is quite high.  So measuring the voltage at the track will not tell you anything unless you measure it as the train is passing.  Even then, if the voltage drops, all it tells you is that there is a resistance somewhere between the measurement point and the transformer, or even inside the transformer.  Then you have to figure out where that resistance is.

A further complication is that the locomotive will draw more current in a curve, causing a voltage drop that you can't tell from one due to track, wiring, or transformer resistance.

[J. Daddy]

Well to save your sanity go get a Digital Multimeter and take a voltage reading at the 'fast' point and 'slow' point. What is your reading? If you see a difference in the voltage read you have a voltage drop due to the resistance of the track. The best way to eliminate any issue is use 14AWG wire from end to end, than run your 18AWG feeders to the track every 3 ft. You will never have this issue again...If you do not have a change in the voltage reading you have an issue with the engine binding into the curve.

[servoguy]

I would advise against using a wire wheel to clean wheels on an engine with Magnetraction. The wire wheels shed wires from time to time, and these wires may foul the wheels or the gears driving them. A little isopropyl alcohol on a paper towel should remove whatever oil or grease is on the wheels. Bruce Baker

[CB&Q]

 where the engine slows mark that area and then go and check track for all 3 track pins having a nice snug fit if loose tighten them up. also clean the wheels on your locomotive if you have a dremel tool with the wire wheel attachment use it to clean them and that too will help it run smoother.

[lionelsoni]

The transformer is supposed to put out a nearly constant voltage.  The train then draws as much current as it needs to do its work.  If your 40-watt transformer is able to supply the current, the result is pretty much the same as if it were a 400-watt transformer.  If it is not, eventually the circuit breaker will trip in protest against the excessive current.

There is a subtle difference however.  All transformers have a certain finite output impedance, which, like the resistance of your wiring, causes the voltage to drop somewhat in response to the current that you draw.  A 40-watt transformer has more output impedance than a bigger transformer.  So it is possible that the increased load on your train as it goes around curves, or up the grades that have been suggested, slows down the train, not only directly, but also indirectly by lowering the voltage in response to the greater current drawn.

If you have a voltmeter available, you can check this out by putting the meter right at the transformer terminals and running the train.  If you can see the voltage dropping when the train slows down, that may be significant.  Then try continuously adjusting the transformer to keep the voltage constant as the train goes around the loop.  If that eliminates the slowdown, then you might hope that a much larger transformer will solve your problem.

[Ole Timer]

  A little 40 watt transformer ?  ........................    ......

[freed]

Have found that the best way to determine if you are having problems with track connections is to measure the voltage on the track. This way you quickly find the tracks with poor connections and repair or replace the track which drops too much voltage.

[Easyrider1269]

ok, I took the entire layout apart and cleaned the rails, pins and joint holes. I then put it all back together (roughly in the same order as before) and it still slows down and speeds up at points. BTW, I'm using the 40w transformer that came with the set - could that be too small for 48'? Should I use a bigger transformer? 

Also, the layout is almost perfectly level all the way around.

I'm pretty much at the end of my rope. I actually like the soldering idea. I have 52 joints though - X2, that's 104 solders. Yikes! Cheaper than fastrack though...

If that doesn't work, the train runs ok. It's just annoying that it doesn't run at a consistant speed all the way around.

[servoguy]

Bob, It is interesting to try to figure out how the energy gets from the forward motion of the train into the lateral motion of the car. Clearly, the energy has to come from the forward motion of the train as the engine is the only energy source, and the lateral sway is dissipating energy. It is likely that the energy dissipation on each cycle is quite small as the bolster should be greased, and the contact of the flange with the rail is not severe. However, I expect it is the flange against the rail that is the primary placed where energy is dissipated. There is some longitudinal oscillation of the car due to the angle of the couplers changing as the car sways back and forth. I suspect that this longitudinal oscillation is what is pumping the sway motion. The flanges hitting the rails act like a limiter that one might use on a two integrator which is being used as an oscillator and is being pumped by a little positive feedback. Bruce Baker

[servoguy]

Bob, Good explanation. I have known for a long time that the truck were steered by the taper of the wheels. However, at the same time, I have wondered how the motion is damped as energy is being put in by the forward motion of the train, and so it would seem that the motion is going to be an undamped sine wave as you state. The rotation of the bolster provides some friction damping as does the slight contact of the flange with the rail. It would seem that a yaw damper on the bolster would improve the situation, but then it is another mechanical piece to maintain, and it might have to be rather large and heavy as the angular motion is very small. I can see that this could get to be exciting as the train speed increases. More energy is going into the trucks because of the increased train speed. Bruce Baker

[lionelsoni]

The conical wheel tread produces a rotation rate about the center bearing that is proportional to lateral displacement.  The lateral velocity is proportional to the rotation angle.  The solution to the differential equations for these relationships is an undamped sinusoid.

If the cone is reversed, so that the lesser diameter is close to the flange, the sinusoid is replaced by an outward motion that must be continuously restrained by the flange's rubbing against the rail, causing rapid wear of both.  The real reason for the conical tread is to give the wheel a useful lifetime before the wheel wears to this degree.  When a wheel wears to a cylindrical profile, it is condemned. 

The sinusoidal oscillation is a byproduct of the wear consideration.  I had the occasion to observe it easily some years ago riding on the Cass Railroad in West Virginia.  I could easily see the truck through the large gaps in the floor of the converted flatcar.  The oscillation was obvious and continuous, but not fast enough nor great enough to produce any sensation of sidewards motion.  In the steady state, the flanges barely kiss the rail at the very peaks of the oscillation.

In very high-speed passenger trains, the oscillation frequency is high enough to be a concern.  One technique that is being tried is independent rotation of the wheels, with active control of the wheel speed, a sort of roll-by-wire.

The HTCR (high-traction 3-axle radial) truck moves the bearings of the outer axles fore and aft in response to the angle that the truck makes with the locomotive body, so that all three axles are perpendicular to the rails, that is, radial.  The axles are still solid; so there is no difference in tread wear.  But flange and rail wear is reduced.