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91 Circuit Breaker!!

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Posted by BayWindow on Tuesday, April 30, 2019 10:04 PM
The original prewar and the first postwar which except for high and low connections looks like the prewar is a magnetic breaker and VERY fast.
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Posted by bfskinner on Monday, February 11, 2013 8:35 PM

Thank you, Bob

 

That was exactly what I was looking for. Don't know why I couldn't find it in the Mouser website except that they have a lot of very similarly-labled items and I guess my bifocals just weren't up to it.

bf
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Posted by lionelsoni on Monday, February 11, 2013 7:24 PM

Here is a link:

http://www.mouser.com/Circuit-Protection/TVS-Diodes-Transient-Voltage-Suppressors/_/N-5g3gZscv7?P=1yzv44x&Keyword=1.5KE36CA&FS=True

The "1.5" is the peak power rating in kilowatts.  The "36" is the nominal peak voltage.  The "CA" means "bidirectional".  "A" alone means unidirectional; but you don't want that.  There are three voltage ratings to consider:

Operating voltage--30.8 volts.  This should be no less than the RMS voltage times the square-root of 2, which is 29.7 for 21 volts RMS (ZW).

Breakdown voltage--34.2 volts.  This is the voltage at which the TVS will begin to conduct.

Peak voltage--49.9 volts.  This is the voltage to which the TVS will limit the circuit.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by bfskinner on Monday, February 11, 2013 4:28 PM

Request for update from Bob "lionelsoni" Nelson

Bob, if I am reading the current Mouser catalog correctly (as of Feb 2013) this part is not available -- which is not quite the same thing as saying they cannot supply a substitute.. Could you recommend a suitable  substiture, and perhaps re-explain what the various essential terms of the part number mean (such as the code that specifies bi-directional)  and the voltage values within which the device will function properly in toy train applications?

Any help you can give that will make it easier for a layman to locate and acquire an appropriate TVS diode will be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance.

bf
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Posted by jsonova99 on Sunday, October 23, 2011 8:15 AM

I was planning on wiring TVS diodes right across the terminals on the transformer (ZW & 1033), at least until I have a more permanent setup.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Wednesday, March 31, 2010 5:27 PM

Vishay 1.5KE36CA.  Wire it across (in parallel with) the track.  It is a bidirectional unit, so polarity doesn't matter.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by davidam on Tuesday, March 30, 2010 7:08 PM

Bob Nelson

Could you recomend what type of transient voltage superssor should be used for kw's & type v transformers. I have experienced a melt down  of an electronic engine running on the  V transformer. By the way I am  not good with electronics. I wolud appreciate any advice you can give. Thanks

Dave Marconi

 

 

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Posted by lionel2 on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:12 AM

Okay, I got it now!!  I will duplicate the arrangment for each loop of track.  The problem is:  I only have (1) 167C and (3) 91's and (1) 66.  Looks like I need to look for 3 more 167C's and 1 more 91 and 3 more 66's.  I have a train show comming up in April.  I look for them there.  Thank you very much.

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Posted by ADCX Rob on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 7:38 AM

 Do you NEED to do it that way?   No.

Again, it is a question of whether you WANT them.

If you want each loop to have the exact same controlling/controller equipment, then you will want to duplicate the arrangement for each loop.

Do you MIND using the 66 instead of 167/167c's?  That's OK too if it provides the control you want.

If you want to, you can run one or more loops each of S, O, Standard, & HO loops from your Z type, each with different control equipment for each loop.  The HO, for example, would require a rectifier or similar box like the Lionel 0150 "Recti-Volt".

 

Rob

Rob

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Posted by lionel2 on Wednesday, March 24, 2010 5:18 AM

Anyone, I have 4 seperate loops of track for my standard gauge trains.  Does this mean I need (4) 167C's and (4) 91's??  Can I also use a number 66 wired up instead of my 167C's??  Thanks.

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Posted by edoptician on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 6:29 PM

I prefer the late 50s era circuit breaker....the tan plastic one with the calibration know and manual reset button.  I believe it is also #91.  I calibrate mine using a #81 rheostat and a set of AC meters.  you can get them to pop when they should and not pop when they should not this way.

 

Ed

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Posted by lionel2 on Tuesday, March 23, 2010 11:25 AM

Ben, You use both the 167C and the 91 per loop of track??  I have 4 seperate loops of track for my standard gauge trains.  Does this mean I need (4) 167C's and (4) 91's??  Can I also use a number 66 wired up instead of my 167C's??  Thanks.

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Posted by lionel2 on Monday, March 22, 2010 7:51 PM

You use both the 167C and the 91 per loop of track??  I have 4 seperate loops of track for my standard gauge trains.  Does this mean I need (4) 167C's and (4) 91's??  Can I also use a number 66 wired up instead of my 167C's??  Thanks.

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Posted by ben10ben on Monday, March 22, 2010 7:43 PM

The 167C uses a thermal breaker, which is much slower to open than the magnetic breaker in the 91. As far as I know, the current ratings are both about 5 amps.

The breakers in the 167C is not a substitute for the 91 breaker. When I'm using my Z(usually just for Christmas tree layouts), I use both a 91 and a 167C. 

Ben TCA 09-63474
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Posted by lionel2 on Monday, March 22, 2010 7:38 PM

Anyone? 

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Posted by lionel2 on Monday, March 22, 2010 12:32 PM

Does the 91 do the same job as the 167C that has a built in circuit breaker??  I mean the 91 I know does not sound the whistle or change directions of the train.  But, the 167C does have a circuit breaker in it.  Will the 167C cut power to the track if there is a derailment??  I know there is not red light on the 167C, but still does the same job as the 91, correct??  Thanks.

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Posted by lionel2 on Sunday, March 21, 2010 5:19 AM

The lever is pushed up pretty easy.  But, the lever tends to drop down and then the red light comes on. Then, cutting all power to track.  Even a little vibiration on the train layout causes the lever to drop down.  The lever does not in any way click and stay in position when you push it to the On position or up.  There is one contact inside the 91, which shuts on and off the red light.  I am not sure how to fix this problem. Humm.  I would really like to put my 91 on my layout, but too much vibirations.  Only solution I can think of is to take it off the layout and put it on my control panel, but then no one can see it, because my control panel is below my layout platform.  Let me know what you think.  Thanks.

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Posted by ben10ben on Saturday, March 20, 2010 9:27 PM

By the way, $20 sounds really high to me. As I recall, I paid about $2 or $3 from a train show for mine. I frequently see them priced for $5 or less at shows. I've also paid the same for prewar rheostats.


These prewar electric accessories are quite plentiful, and the demand for them is fairly low. Shop around and you can do a lot better. 

Ben TCA 09-63474
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Posted by ben10ben on Saturday, March 20, 2010 9:22 PM

 I have a 91 that I have, at various times, used with both my Z and ZW transformer.

It's a magnetic type breaker, and is very, very fast-much faster than the thermal breakers in the Z and ZW. 

 

The current rating is fairly low-in the neighborhood of 5 amps, as I recall, based on my experience. 

 

I don't have a fix for the loose lever, however I do recall that it required a fairly firm "shove" to get it to latch completely. 

 

In short, I would not hesitate to use one, although it will significantly reduce the maximum current that you can draw from that particular output on the transformer. 

Ben TCA 09-63474
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Posted by lionel2 on Saturday, March 20, 2010 6:06 PM

One more problem.  My 91 has a very sensitive on/off lever.  When I place the 91 on my layout, the trains running on the layout cause the on/off lever to turn off, thus turning on the red light and cutting all power to the track.  Is there anyway I can make the on/off lever less sensitive?  I tied opening it up and see if it can fix it, but too many moving parts inside of the 91.  Should I use a little piece of tape to hold up the lever?  Just enough tape to hold it up, but still when there is a derailment, it is able to set off the circuit breaker and the red light lights up.  Let me know what you think.  Thanks.

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Posted by lionel2 on Saturday, March 20, 2010 12:47 PM

Thanks for such a great answer!!  I think I want them for added protection.  I will head on over to my hobby shop and get some more of them.  They are only like $20 each.  Will look nice on the layout and control panel.  Thanks again.

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Posted by ADCX Rob on Saturday, March 20, 2010 12:08 PM

You don't NEED them.

Do you WANT them?

Will it HURT TO USE them?  No.

Will it be convenient to have them? Yes.

Is there a "COOL FACTOR" using them?  Maybe - it's nice to have independent visual indication of track/train trouble from the control panel.

Will they add extra protection?  Maybe.  Usually with the V & Z type transformers the internal breakers open too soon when they wear out, not too late.

Is it worth it to have them?  Maybe, depends on your cost analysis vs. your desire, or reluctance, as it now appears, to go ahead and use them.

Rob

 

Rob

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Posted by lionel2 on Saturday, March 20, 2010 11:37 AM

You don't think it would hurt to use some 91's with my Z transformers??  I mean the Z does have a built in Circuit Breaker, but should it be okay to add extra protection with the use of the 91 wired to the Z and to the track?  I am debating whether to get 2 more of the 91's at my hobby shop.  They are not too expensive, but is it worth it?  Thanks.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Friday, March 19, 2010 8:53 AM

A number of 2-terminal devices are connected in series when the same current passes through all of them.  If the devices are A, B, and C, and their terminals are 1 and 2, then they are in series when A-2 is connected to B-1 and B-2 connected to C-1.  Then that series string can be connected into a larger circuit using terminals A-1 and C-2.  Christmas-tree lights are notoriously connected in series.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by lionel2 on Friday, March 19, 2010 6:31 AM

Could you explain to me what In Series means?  I am by no means an electrician and I wish I had instructions for my Number 66.  I have instructions for a 167 and 91 and a Z transformer.  But, They are not too clear on how to wire up everything.  Thanks.

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Posted by ADCX Rob on Thursday, March 18, 2010 6:16 PM

 All in series on whichever control you want this all on(A,B,C, or D).

Rob

Rob

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Posted by lionel2 on Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:10 PM

How do you wire up the 91 with the 167??  Also, how do you wire up the 91, 167 and 66 all together??  Is there any graph or pictures or anything that show how to do this??  I have some 91's and 167's and one of the 66.  And I would just like to know the right way to wire them up to my track and my Z transformer.  Thanks.

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Posted by lionelsoni on Thursday, March 18, 2010 4:35 PM

There is no harm in adding one, in series with either the common (U) or one of the other terminals.  However, without knowing its current rating, there is no way to know whether it is doing you any good.  Therefore, with that transformer, you should still put individual circuit breakers whose rating you know to be no more than 15 amperes in series with whichever of the A, B, C, and D terminals you're using and wire those circuits with wire of the appropriate gauge, with 14 AWG minimum for the common.

Bob Nelson

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Posted by lionel2 on Thursday, March 18, 2010 3:37 PM

Would it be okay to wire up a 91 to a Z transformer??  To have 2 circuit breakers protecting the wires and transformer.  I know the 91 only takes an instant for it to trip and the red light come on.  And as you stated the Z takes a while for the red light to come on.  Thanks.

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