Well, I usually never get screwed on ebay except I beleive this time. I bid on a A-A set and won at $345. His auction stated C6 Excellent, trains have no broken or missing parts, and that the train was tested and was sliggish + start/stops, to the effect the wheels and gears need greased and that it was not done recently. This is not verbatim from the auction but close.
Anyways what I found is the rear truck brass gear was worn so bad, it slipped, hence the start/stop. Bushings are worn for the worm shaft ends, and allows LOTS of play which probably put extra wear on the brass gears. The E-unit drum is warped / disfigured badly so that it hangs up, the factory horn is rusted out inside, and all the pieces rattle around, the motor brushes are worn out, the front coupler / coil is broken, and the collector wire was a hacked up speaker wire that melted as a result of being too small of guage. It runs good now that I cleaned it all up and locked the e drum in the correct position and swapped one of my spare trucks onto it. It is definatly not cosmetically a C6. However I could live the cosmetics as it still looks nice, but did I get ripped off on the mechanicals from it being misrepresented?
I know I placed the bid, but I assumed it would need cleaning, lubricatied, and a set of brushes. No big expense there.
You do not mention what set you bought so I cannot say about that part. Ebay can be difficult to buy from because too many sellers either are not knowledgable, or are passing off their worst pieces from their collections. Others buy from an estate sale or somewhere else and try to make big bucks passing them off as something other than what they really are. Some people's idea of C6 can be anothers idea of C4. You have already repaired it so you have no recourse other than to keep it. Paypal offers buyers great protection now. All the parts are available to repair. Enjoy your train.
Roger
I can reverse my repairs completely except my time and the new wires, not biggie there. I bought a Postwar Lionel F3 Santa Fe A-A set. It is number 2333-20 on the bottom. I has the screened vents on top.
I kinda hope he can give me a partial refund rather than send them back. After all as a result of the distant picutres and basic decription, I and many others brought the bid way up. Cosmetically not C6, but I can sure live with the blemishes for the right price.
Fordiesel,
I don't know if I'd say that you got a bad deal, but that does sound high given the condition. The bad thing is that there is no way of knowing if the seller knew about the problems or not. Some open items up while others simply send the item out the door as soon as they get the item in hand. Worse yet are those who know about problems and lie to make a sale. I have been in similar situations like what you are going through several times, and I know how frustrating it can be. I fixed the items just as you did and enjoyed them. Trust me, I could tell you some stories about online purchases and even one on one deals at shows...
Fordiesel69:
I agree with Trainrat about sellers on Ebay. I have bought a number of items that in my opinion they were not to the same standards of grading as mine. When I bid, I keep the bid below the Greenberg low end price in the price guide in case any repairs have to be made. Exceptions are dealers that I have dealt with before, the stated condition and how bad I really want it, and I still stay toward the low end, set my price and I will not go 10 cents over it. The main thing is: ENJOY THE TRAINS and don't worry about the price. Reflect how you feel in his feedback rating. On more than 1 time I did not bid or buy now from sellers with negative feedback and his answer to it.
John
That number is on the bottom of more than one engine. The chassis could even be from something else. What number is in the number boards? Should be 2333, 2343, or 2353. The screen vents make them 1949- to about 1953 I think. I agree that for the condition you descibe it was too much. With several people bidding on an item it can go for much more than it is actually worth. You have to just back off in those cases. The thing about Ebay is there will always be another one come along. Watch out for schill bidders and people with very low purchase numbers. Both will drive the price out of site.
The other thing to do is not to get caught up with bidding. Decide how much you want to pay and bid that much. If you win, great, if not, wait for the next one to come along.
At least you got your purchase. I had one seller string me along about shipping until the time limit ran out for recourse through E-bay. Reported him anyhow. Fortuantely, the sale price of the item was in the tens of dollars not in the hundreds of dollars. I chalked that up as a lesson to watch the time and use the resources of e-bay and paypal in a timely manner.
The 2333-20 on the frame doesn't tell you the model number; the number boards do. If they are unreadable, the easiest way to tell a 2343 from a 2333 is by its having magnetraction.
Bob Nelson
Seems high for the mechanical issues. I picked up a few months ago from one of the PostWar auctioneers the 2245 Texas Special AB, mechanically in excellant condition, cosmetically a few scratches and missing the porthole windows for $160.
Bill T.
It is a 2343 with magnatraction.
Yes. 2343 SF has Magnetraction. Your 2333 SFdoes not.
Bill's 2245 TS is single motor and has Magnetraction..
2333 SF and 2343 SF are dual motored.
You asked if you got screwed. You may have paid on the heavy side for what you you got, but my feeling is this. You now have the earliest sample of a Postwar Lionel F3 Warbonnet, Lionel's first F3, and you can enjoy it. I paid nothing, but I have nothing and am F3-less. Who is closer to fun? You are.
Fix it up, clean it up (read up on how to do safely without damaging the paint and decals). Then polish (read up on that too to avoid damading the paint and decals). Now you are operationally set. Then if the cosmetics bother you, you can look for better shells and sell shells you have that you cleaned up.
As a businessman I always say that a plan ill conceived but violently executed will nonetheless succeed. My opinion.
Jack.
IF IT WON'T COME LOOSE BY TAPPING ON IT, DON'T TRY TO FORCE IT. USE A BIGGER HAMMER.
IMHO, once you alter the piece in any way, including cleaning and lubrication, you are stuck with it.
As far as the condition goes, the seller did say it starts and stops. At that point, folks should realize that they are buying a "pig in a poke"Sellers are typically going to be charitable in their favor when describing their merchandise.Buyers should rely on pictures. If all sides aren't shown, you are safer assuming that the best side is shown. And there are folks who use their TCA, LCCA, TTOS, etc., as a license to be dishonest.
I suckered myself recently when I saw a lot of Lionel trains at the last minute, and decided to bid. I couldn't blame the seller because he did state the items needed work. When I got the stuff, all but one piece went directly into the junk pile. It's stuff I wouldn't foist off on someone else, having very little value, even as parts. Sometimes Ebay yields bargains, other times one can overpay.
CW has a good point.
You have to return it exactly as received and prove your point, that the condition was not as advertised. Even then the seller may balk. Many sellers, however, want the satisfaction rating and you may simply be able to reverse the transaction and walk away.
Some of these auction items may be as tired on the inside as they are on the outside. Others may look on the outside like they have been through the veritable demolition derby wringer with some kids' play but have extremely low mileage or wear and were decently stored. Which is yours?
Do you have a local repair guy who can give you a second, nose in the patient's incision opinion, without cleaning and lubrication? While you test out the "return" waters?
The bird in the hand may very well be: cosmetic issues but stored decently, appears to be lower than average mileage, meachanicals fixable at a reasonable price or effort. This F3 is 60+ years old.
Your fun continues.
Jack
He did discribe the running condition. So when you buy sight unseen you take a chance. This time you did not do so well, if you can, might as well fix and keep.
"IT's GOOD TO BE THE KING",by Mel Brooks
Charter Member- Tardis Train Crew (TTC) - Detroit3railers- Detroit Historical society Glancy Modular trains- Charter member BTTS
Fordiesel69,
Here's an Olsen's Toy Trains Part link which lists ans shows Lionel's 2343 F-3 Power unit, with Magne-Traction and put out in 1950: http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/2343p.htm
Good Luck,
Ralph
did you conatact the seller before you did anything to them? Ive found the vast majority of sellers will work with a buyer if they are just given the chance.
Well it appears my worries were unwarranted. The seller has given a partial refund to the effect of the parts I listed as needing replacement. The parts I listed were not somthing I could repair, so I listed the price of replacements. Now I can say the fun will begin. Cosmetically by the pictures I thought they would be better, but being 60+ yrs old, and the price price adjustment, I am happy and can look past the blemishes.
Now if I can only find a original lionel E- drum I will be set. Anyone have a used one they want to sell in good cleanable condition?
More, than likely the seller knew the engine had problems, which he should have stated, but at least he owed-up when you questioned him. He, probably was weary of a poor report filed with good ole' E-bay!
It is interes
Fordiesel69The E-unit drum is warped / disfigured badly so that it hangs up
That is interesting that you also had a warped e-unit drum on a 2343. I had the same experience. Here is how I handled the problem for a temporary repair. I have now changed out the drum.
I removed the e-unit drum and attempted a repair because I didn't have a replacement drum. I used vise-grips to squeeze most of the black insulating material back into the drum. I then used a Dremel tool to grind off any remaining material that protruded beyond the drum. The e-unit then worked properly. I didn't know how long the repair would last.
The odd thing is the e-unit was working fine when I purchased the engine on e-bay. Two months later, when I tried to activate the e-unit, the drum would not rotate and I could see why. I have no idea what happened to the drum in the 2-month time period between when it was working fine and the failure, when it would not rotate.
Here is a 'Before' photo:
Here is the 'After' photo:
Earl
Earl,
Whatever, gave you the idea to squeeze the black part back? That's great.
In my case, I'd squeeze and damage the drum completely.
sir james I He did discribe the running condition.......
He did discribe the running condition.......
I don't know what I was thinking.....must have gotten so excited that he got the pair that I went temporarily insane. Sorry Ford and everyone.
Train-OEarl,Whatever, gave you the idea to squeeze the black part back? That's great.In my case, I'd squeeze and damage the drum completely.Ralph
Ralph,
When I received my 2343 AA set, I really liked them. When the e-unit would not cycle, I had no replacement e-unit drum, so it was either repair the drum or set the 2343 on a shelf and wait for a replacement. As the old adage goes, necessity is the mother of invention.
I use "E-Bay" quite a bit and rely (Right or Wrong) on the pictures as well as the descriptions. For the most part, I guess I've been fortunate. The condition on only two items that I purchased was questionable. In each case, I contacted the sellers and, in both cases, the sellers refunded part of the cost.
Answer: NO Look at it this way: You got the item you wanted. You got a chance to work on it. You are enjoying it. Can't beat that!
PS. Maybe next time you buy on "E-Bay", when you open the package, you will find a "real treasure", something that the seller missed and you didn't expect.
I"m not sure why you need an original drum. These are replaceable from any parts dealer and don't affect value. And you don't have collector pieces anyway.
If you want a lionel drum, I'm sure you can pick one up on their site as they're making conventional engines again. Otherwise Jeff Kane used to have some original green drums but he's probably out by now. any repro will do.
Mike S.
I already bought 2 repro black / brass drums and they melted on my NYC F3. I put the original back in which is in worn, rough shape and it seems to work fine until I can take my time and find an original. If you search, you will find where experianced people state the repro drums are junk, and I can confirm they are too.
My santa fe, I just locked it in forward and moved the lever so it will stay in forward for the time being.
I did not make myself clear, I'm not debating the act of sqeezing the black portion in, but what I'm amazed at is that you had the concept of squeezing the black portion in and that it might, or will work.
That's great! If, I thought of that and attempted to do that type of repair I'd damage the part, due to my clumsiness. Believe me, I agree with you, because there were plenty of times that I had to rig something up, due to the shortage of a part, or shortage of money to buy the correct part.
I'm sorry for not clarifying myself with my previous post.
And, Yes. The 2343 'A-A's' are fantastic.
Enjoy,
Take Care,
Not sure where you're getting them from. But I've used many white and brass repro drums with no problems at all. Get them from Jeff Kane and all will be well.
this really isn't a problem.
msaccoNot sure where you're getting them from. But I've used many white and brass repro drums with no problems at all. Get them from Jeff Kane and all will be well.
Until recently, reproduction drums had copper contacts. I agree that these reproduction drums, which are typically cast in white plastic, work fine. I use them in my repairs of "operator grade" items. As far as I know, it is only the latest round of reproduction drums, which are molded from black plastic, that seem to be made with brass contacts. A while ago, I noted that one of my friends, who is a parts dealer, opinioned that the brass contacts would be troublesome over time. We'll see whether he is correct.
I did buy them from Jeff Kane and they melted in less than 1 hour or so. Nothing I did wrong because the original is still working, just is pitted and has coggs that are rough. The overall size of the brass contact surface was a lot smaller and lower quality the way it was cut. This is not meant to bash Jeff, his parts are great and his service is better. Just whoever is manufacturing these drums is not doing a good job on the quality.
Try a recent batch of black / brass and you will find the same thing. For sure if yours is dual motor. Maybe a single motor they would work fine, who knows.
Fordiesel69 This is not meant to bash Jeff, his parts are great and his service is better. Just whoever is manufacturing these drums is not doing a good job on the quality.
While Jeff does manufacture some parts, as well as tools for the ST-350 arbor press, he does not make the drums. .
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